Vapor Sealed Electrical Boxes Required for 70+ boxes...

[mike93lx]

Oh right - that's 2 runs of unshielded Cat6a for any future networking needs.

...forgot about that.

So a metallic parallel pathway....

Replace the feeders

 

[Gopherboy6956]

So a metallic parallel pathway....

Replace the feeders

I mean kinda - cat6 can only carry like 2 amps max. That has to matter.

Can you elaborate on why it's dangerous? I truely don't know. This wire for example, is also buried, although at the top of the trench, and would only be connected to network switches at either end.

 

[mike93lx]

I mean kinda - cat6 can only carry like 2 amps max. That has to matter.

Can you elaborate on why it's dangerous? I truely don't know. This wire for example, is also buried, although at the top of the trench, and would only be connected to network switches at either end.

It's all been discussed with the need for a 4 wire feeder.

The insulation on that wire isn't rated for indoor use due to the smoke it releases when burned.

 

[mm08822]

I mean kinda - cat6 can only carry like 2 amps max. That has to matter.

Can you elaborate on why it's dangerous? I truely don't know. This wire for example, is also buried, although at the top of the trench, and would only be connected to network switches at either end.

Maybe by comms protocol limited to 2A, but the conductor/jacket will try to carry whatever current is imposed upon it. If the current is too much, then the path(s) could burn clear due to the excessive current. Like a toaster element.
The real issue is you possibly getting zapped as you grab pieces of those unintended paths especially when opening those circuit paths and you being grounded. GFCI's are made to trip at 4-6mA for a reason.

So here's another question.............did Sparky wire the house feeder into the house sub-panel with USE-2 also? Any pics of that insulation?

 

[Gopherboy6956]

Maybe by comms protocol limited to 2A, but the conductor/jacket will try to carry whatever current is imposed upon it. If the current is too much, then the path(s) could burn clear due to the excessive current. Like a toaster element.
The real issue is you possibly getting zapped as you grab pieces of those unintended paths especially when opening those circuit paths and you being grounded. GFCI's are made to trip at 4-6mA for a reason.

So here's another question.............did Sparky wire the house feeder into the house sub-panel with USE-2 also? Any pics of that insulation?

Ahh - the house panel has been as-is for the last 10 years when we built the house.

It's got a gray sheathed 4-wire feeder, looks quite different to the URD I used. Ignore the red wires in the bottom of the panel. I have a transfer switch for my generator I need to wire up still.

 

[mm08822]

Ahh - the house panel has been as-is for the last 10 years when we built the house.

It's got a gray sheathed 4-wire feeder, looks quite different to the URD I used. Ignore the red wires in the bottom of the panel. I have a transfer switch for my generator I need to wire up still.

Ok, that may be, but it didn't mean the feeder didn't have to get replaced with the meter pan upgrade. Anyway, it's SER 4-wire, so it's ok. (Had to ask.....b/c ya never knooooooooowwwwww.)

 

[Gopherboy6956]

Ok, that may be, but it didn't mean the feeder didn't have to get replaced with the meter pan upgrade. Anyway, it's SER 4-wire, so it's ok. (Had to ask.....b/c ya never knooooooooowwwwww.)

You never know, understatement of this entire thread, haha.


Also - in a now unrelated topic, my building inspector signed off on my framing inspection today, along with my foam flange solution around my electrical boxes.

 

[PCustoms]

Delete

 

[billconner]

delete

 

[billconner]

You never know, understatement of this entire thread, haha.


Also - in a now unrelated topic, my building inspector signed off on my framing inspection today, along with my foam flange solution around my electrical boxes.

Poly vapor barrier under planking?

 

[DGersic]

That should not be indoors.

Curious, why not?

 

[mm08822]

Curious, why not?

Keep reading....it's explained.

 

[Gopherboy6956]

Poly vapor barrier under planking?

Yep, i'll have to have that inbetween the insulation and planks regardless, then ill just use some left over window flashing tape around the boxes to the poly.

 

[DGersic]

Keep reading....it's explained.

That’s weird. I had read to the end of the available thread. Now I see your (earlier than mine) post.

I’m going to go ahead and blame the internet gremlins.

 

[larry4406]

Been following along as this has been a good learning exercise.

Dumb question.... Now that its been determined that the feeder to the detached garage is missing a ground, and has the wrong insulation for interior use, would it be possible to add a direct burial ground wire? Or is this a no-no since the ground wire would not be bundled with the rest of the cables?

His wire is 4/0, 4/0, 2/0 triplex aluminum URD, which is 3 loose conductors with a slight spiral wrap around each other. Since its not sheathed, why would it matter if the ground were separately run, and perhaps at a different (more shallow?) elevation?



Composite picture below from the OP's postings. On the left and middle picture, you can see that power to the detached garage comes thru the wall via back to back LB's. What if the exterior LB were changed to a larger junction box, and the section of wire from that point to the panel were removed and replaced with either SER or XHHW with 4-wire? Then the added ground brought up thru the conduit to the new junction box and properly connected (polaris type connectors or similar). Meanwhile, the right picture shows were the ground would connect at the disconnect's factory neutral-ground bond. Lastly, at the detached garage panel, the ground screw would be removed, and the neutral and ground bars properly separated along with their connecting wires.

Trying to think of a way to correct this in a least cost manner vs wholesale replacement of the entire feeder.

 

[mike93lx]

What if the exterior LB were changed to a larger junction box, and the section of wire from that point to the panel were removed and replaced with either SER or XHHW with 4-wire?

That would be sufficient to deal with the insulation issue.

The ground needs to be with the rest of the wires, AFAIK...i believe the NEC says "in the same Raceway", but I don't know how that exactly works with direct burial. Touching?

If this whole run is in conduit (I can't remember) , this is a pretty easy fix.

 

[rust in the eye]

A friend asked me to tag along with their home inspector last Friday. This was a pre-purchase inspection. He showed me the "missing" Penetrox. I explained todays alloys. He never heard of that. I see it is still used quite often, I assume just to avoid getting questioned.

That is another breed entirely. They know ALL the trades

 

[dave*99]

That would be sufficient to deal with the insulation issue.

The ground needs to be with the rest of the wires, AFAIK...i believe the NEC says "in the same Raceway", but I don't know how that exactly works with direct burial. Touching?

If this whole run is in conduit (I can't remember) , this is a pretty easy fix.

In addition to your valid concern, there is the labor to put that ground wire in a trench. The original trench is layered with power, gas, internet etc. Tough to add another conductor down deep. Digging another trench may not be an attractive option either.

This is an odd thread. The OP knew he needed advice, went to the AHJ and a licensed electrician and received the opposite of good advice.

 

[larry4406]

That would be sufficient to deal with the insulation issue.

The ground needs to be with the rest of the wires, AFAIK...i believe the NEC says "in the same Raceway", but I don't know how that exactly works with direct burial. Touching?

If this whole run is in conduit (I can't remember) , this is a pretty easy fix.

Mike I interpret the OP's installation is simply direct burial without conduit but it should be clarified.

Post 53 by the OP
....and trenched it into the shop...

Post 96 by the OP
Of course, I'd love to have it perfectly code correct, but it's also december, with a foot of snow on the ground, and running a 4th wire 4ft down in a trench that's already re-filled AND has a gas line running on top of it at the 2ft mark is extremely not practical.

Regarding keeping the conductors all in the same "raceway", the ditch is the raceway. The 3 conductors are simply spiral wrapped (no sheathing) at the bottom of the ditch and these often separate when dumped in the ditch as I have seen when new services are run. Why would it matter if an added direct burial ground were placed not directly with this group at the 4' depth?

I am not a sparky, just trying to think of way to salvage most of this.

 

[mike93lx]

Regarding keeping the conductors all in the same "raceway", the ditch is the raceway. The 3 conductors are simply spiral wrapped (no sheathing) at the bottom of the ditch and these often separate when dumped in the ditch as I have seen when new services are run. Why would it matter if an added direct burial ground were placed not directly with this group at the 4' depth?

Maybe philosophical, but what is "the ditch" ? I think there's a bit of a difference between wires being separated a little in laying and backfill and the wires not being together at all.

If the existing is at 4' and the new is at 3' right above, will it practically matter? I don't think so. And it would be better than it is now. I definitely wouldn't run the wire in a different path, tbough

 

[PCustoms]

It's direct burial, confirmed by OP to me earlier in thread or possibly in a PM.

This whole this is a mess, and I've stated my position. It ***** with the sunk costs, if a contractor did this he should fix it on his dime. If the OP did it it should still get fixed but I can understand the $$$ issue

 

[mm08822]

Adding the 4th conductor in a trench 1 ft deep is a reasonable fix. No it's not code compliant, but the electrons otherwise escaping through a rouge ground loop are corraled.

 

[mike93lx]

if a contractor did this he should fix it on his dime

Agreed, but It's going to be damn near impossible to get that done when the inspector is this wrong.

 

[mm08822]

It's direct burial, confirmed by OP to me earlier in thread or possibly in a PM.

This whole this is a mess, and I've stated my position. It ***** with the sunk costs, if a contractor did this he should fix it on his dime. If the OP did it it should still get fixed but I can understand the $$$ issue

The worst part is that proper cable selection was only a part # difference. Labor virtually the same, incremental cost trivial.

 

[mm08822]

This is where having a sketch/drawing that includes sufficient detail submitted with the permit application gives EVERYONE a chance to review details and forget the memory game or assumption game.
As an example.....of existing hardware and new hardware to be installed.

 

[PCustoms]

This is where having a sketch/drawing that includes sufficient detail submitted with the permit application gives EVERYONE a chance to review details and forget the memory game or assumption game.
As an example.....of existing hardware and new hardware to be installed.

As simple as this sounds, it's Amazing to me how often it's overlooked.

I'm in the middle of a 6-figure issue right now where someone ordered off a quote that essentially said "to supply all parts". All parts for what? Zero scope for the project...

 

[mm08822]

Scope of work should be stated elsewhere otherwise it could be very vague. That info is included in my contract "description of work".

My permit sketches usually include a seperate "existing" sketch and then a seperate "proposed" sketch.

 

[Sumboodie]

I know my place has nothing and it's like a whole in the wall direct to outside when it's cold

 

[mm08822]

As simple as this sounds, it's Amazing to me how often it's overlooked.

I'm in the middle of a 6-figure issue right now where someone ordered off a quote that essentially said "to supply all parts". All parts for what? Zero scope for the project...

Unbounded statements are trouble. But they could be argued both ways. People learn (usually the hard way).

 

[mm08822]

I would rather discuss/argue over contract details on paper than after parts are installed........much cheaper!

 

[Gopherboy6956]

So just to throw in somewhat of a conclusion here -
I've been chatting with @mm08822 about the same thing @larry4406 suggested - next spring before I fix my trench mess I want to buy a EGC and bury it in the trench at a somewhat shallow depth.

In my mind, having that wire exist, however at an incorrect depth, should be better than it not existing. And if it was hit by digging, it should be a pretty tame situation.

That should also be something i'm 100% capable of doing myself - I know where it goes in the meter main panel, I can get it into the shop on my own, then I can just make the changes in the shop panel and I should be good to go. Or, better to go. Just out a few more hundred dollars and a week of stress from this forum lol.

Thanks again everyone for the insight, although living in ignorance of 3 vs 4 wire feeder and the definition of a subpanel had its perks haha.

 

[mm08822]

So just to throw in somewhat of a conclusion here -
I've been chatting with @mm08822 about the same thing @larry4406 suggested - next spring before I fix my trench mess I want to buy a EGC and bury it in the trench at a somewhat shallow depth.

In my mind, having that wire exist, however at an incorrect depth, should be better than it not existing. And if it was hit by digging, it should be a pretty tame situation.

That should also be something i'm 100% capable of doing myself - I know where it goes in the meter main panel, I can get it into the shop on my own, then I can just make the changes in the shop panel and I should be good to go. Or, better to go. Just out a few more hundred dollars and a week of stress from this forum lol.

Thanks again everyone for the insight, although living in ignorance of 3 vs 4 wire feeder and the definition of a subpanel had its perks haha.

Our specialty!!

And that will teach you for asking about draft-proofing boxes.

 

[dave*99]

Here is a thought for the future. I always separate the neutrals and grounds in a new panel. I buy a couple of ground busses at the start and never look back.
If that panel ever needs to become a sub in the future, remove the bonding screw and call it done.

 

[mike93lx]

Here is a thought for the future. I always separate the neutrals and grounds in a new panel. I buy a couple of ground busses at the start and never look back.
If that panel ever needs to become a sub in the future, remove the bonding screw and call it done.

I don't think that's a bad practice, but how often does a main become a sub?

 

[larry4406]

So just to throw in somewhat of a conclusion here -
I've been chatting with @mm08822 about the same thing @larry4406 suggested - next spring before I fix my trench mess I want to buy a EGC and bury it in the trench at a somewhat shallow depth.

In my mind, having that wire exist, however at an incorrect depth, should be better than it not existing. And if it was hit by digging, it should be a pretty tame situation.

That should also be something i'm 100% capable of doing myself - I know where it goes in the meter main panel, I can get it into the shop on my own, then I can just make the changes in the shop panel and I should be good to go. Or, better to go. Just out a few more hundred dollars and a week of stress from this forum lol.

Thanks again everyone for the insight, although living in ignorance of 3 vs 4 wire feeder and the definition of a subpanel had its perks haha.

I think this is a reasonable outcome given where things currently stand.

Fix it prior to the yard repair in the spring.

Glad I could contribute something. I really felt bad for you given how you reached out for info and the power company, your electrician, and the AHJ all failed you. Quite sad. I would have been beside myself looking for a way out (thus why I posted what I think I would have done in your shoes!).

I know I have looked into 24" wide trenches by the power company and have seen their tri-plex cable strands separate leaving one along one side of the trench, another in the middle, and another on the far side. And this was not just local, but for quite a bit of run like 10-20'! Thus the strands were not colocated anymore and were near 2' apart. Seeing this, what is the harm that one is higher as long as the minimum burial depth is met?

If the strands of the tri-plex were mandatory they be held tight together, instead of the spiral wrap, I would then think the manufacturers would use a more positive method of retention.

 

[mm08822]

I don't think that's a bad practice, but how often does a main become a sub?

Put a transfer switch ahead of main panel.

 

[mm08822]

I think this is a reasonable outcome given where things currently stand.

Fix it prior to the yard repair in the spring.

Glad I could contribute something. I really felt bad for you given how you reached out for info and the power company, your electrician, and the AHJ all failed you. Quite sad. I would have been beside myself looking for a way out (thus why I posted what I think I would have done in your shoes!).

I know I have looked into 24" wide trenches by the power company and have seen their tri-plex cable strands separate leaving one along one side of the trench, another in the middle, and another on the far side. And this was not just local, but for quite a bit of run like 10-20'! Thus the strands were not colocated anymore and were near 2' apart. Seeing this, what is the harm that one is higher as long as the minimum burial depth is met?

If the strands of the tri-plex were mandatory they be held tight together, instead of the spiral wrap, I would then think the manufacturers would use a more positive method of retention.

24" is the minimum depth. I would expect damage to anything else in the trench trying to group everything as expected. 12" is plenty for a ground wire, IMO. Put some caution tape in the trench as a feel good thing to do. Way better to eliminate the safety issue than walk away from it.

 

[mike93lx]

Put a transfer switch ahead of main panel.

Sure, I know what could cause it.

Asked how often it happens

 

[dave*99]

Put a transfer switch ahead of main panel.

That’s exactly what I had in mind. Just went through that with a house and fortunately the panel had grounds and neutrals separated. Transfer switch was an easy install.

Generac generators are popping up like weeds around me.

 

[Gopherboy6956]

Here is a thought for the future. I always separate the neutrals and grounds in a new panel. I buy a couple of ground busses at the start and never look back.
If that panel ever needs to become a sub in the future, remove the bonding screw and call it done.

Funny you say that, i bought a ground bar when I bought the panel, because that just seemed to make sense. Then they told me I didn't need it lol.