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Where to "adapt" generator cord

Walkers

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May 17, 2021
Messages
3,912
Location
Cave Creek Az
having a hold down kit doesnt prevent someone from removing the breaker while its live. they could still remove the hold down kit, before shutting off the

Here is a quote from the product information from that piece.

“It keeps you from accidentally removing the breaker and having energized contacts in your hand. The door of the load center should tell which hold down fits your needs.
Manufacturer: ‎Siemens”


“Can you tell me how to identify these so called backfed rated breakers on the store shelf? (literally theres no special model # or separate model # for backfed rated breakers.)”

Actually I can tell you. I guess I’ll have to hand it to you a third time before you understand it. Read the NEC section 795.12(D) that is posted above. If it is too complicated for you let me know and I’ll break it down for you. I have never looked for the indicators before as I had no need. I am not interested in pulling any off my panels to check them. I did have 2 loose 15 amp breakers, both are suitable for backfeed under the above guidelines.




As to how much experience I have. Look in my first post. I am not an expert in this field and I said so in my very first word. The caveat you should probably have included was ‘I know enough about the code to be dangerous’

I worked at the gas utility for 15 years. I knew the code then, for the pipeline work as well as the electronics that I worked with verbatim, as I could be asked by the commission at any time. I have since moved on and opened my own welding contracting company. I have been in business for 17 years. How about yourself?
 
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jblnut

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This seems like a fun thread so I'll add my $0.02......

I had my electrician install interlocks in my two main incoming 200a panels so I can feed them with my PTO genny. The central MN electrical inspector who will not pass something if he's having bad day put his sticker on the panels. If it wasn't code compliant or for some other reason not allowed I'd sure think he'd have had issue with it.

I can provide any proof you'd like. Pictures, crayon drawings or anything in-between.

Before anyone questions how much field experience I have ....... I baled 76 4x6 round bales of the nicest meadow hay you've ever seen yesterday and then went and fertilized it with some good old chicken poop AND THEN I cut another 25 acres of nice upland hay so I spent all day yesterday in the field. Lots of field experience here.
 
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exranger06

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Aug 9, 2015
Messages
1,686
Location
CT
Also, the main breakers are not supposed to be used as switches.
404.11 - Circuit Breakers as Switches - A hand-operable circuit breaker equipped with a lever or handle, or a power-operated circuit breaker capable of being operated by hand in the event of a power failure, shall be permitted to serve as a switch if it has the required number of poles.

As far as backfeeding breakers goes:
If the breaker has "line" and "load" markings, then you must abide by them and not backfeed it. Any breaker that does not have those markings can be backfed. That being said, most breakers do NOT have these markings and therefore there is no issue with backfeeding them. As far as I know, it's mostly GFCI breakers that have these markings, and you can supposedly fry the electronics in them by backfeeding them.

705.12(D) is the only code section I could find that mentions this. However, that section otherwise doesn't apply to backup/portable generators. It applies to "installation of one or more electric power production sources operating in parallel with a primary source(s) of electricity." In other words, it's when you have two or more sources providing power simultaneously. A good example would be a grid-tie solar panel system. A backup generator does not operate in parallel with utility power. You're either using utility power, or you switch over to generator power. It's one or the other, not both at the same time (paralleled). The appropriate code sections for generators are Article 702 - Optional Standby Systems and Article 445 - Generators. That being said, backfeeding is backfeeding, whether it's from a grid-tied solar system or a portable generator. The breaker would operate the same in both cases.

408.36(D) says that breakers "that are backfed and used to terminate field-installed ungrounded supply conductors shall be secured in place by an additional fastener that requires other than a pull to release the device from the mounting means on the panel." So, as long as you have a hold-down bracket on the breaker, then YES you can backfeed a breaker. If you weren't allowed to backfeed a breaker, the NEC wouldn't have this section. Instead, they'd have a section that said "never backfeed a breaker" or something to that effect.

445.12(A) says that generators "shall be protected from overload by inherent design, circuit breakers, fuses, protective relays or other identified overcurrent protective means suitable for the conditions of use." In other words, assuming it's ok to backfeed a breaker (and we've already established that is ok), this is a perfectly acceptable way of connecting a generator, since the backfed breaker is suitable for use.

702.5(D) says that "transfer equipment shall be suitable for the intended use and shall be listed, designed, and installed so as to prevent the inadvertent interconnection of all sources of supply in any operation of the transfer equipment." This is literally the whole purpose of an interlock kit: to prevent the generator from electrically connecting to the panel while utility power is still connected.

Some more food for thought: A 2-pole breaker is mostly intended for 240V loads. A 240V load does NOT use a neutral wire. (I'm not counting a 240V/120V load like a kitchen oven. In those cases, the neutral is there ONLY for the parts that run on 120V. The 240V parts do not use the neutral). Something like a 240V motor only has 2 hots and a ground. So, without a neutral wire, how does current return to the panel to complete the circuit? It goes down one hot leg, through the load, and returns on the other hot leg (from the load, INTO the breaker, on the LOAD side). Sounds very similar to a breaker getting backfed, doesn't it?
 

jblnut

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In the Middle of MN
Square D QO Interlock Kit
I'm pretty sure Square D wouldn't manufacture their own interlock kits for their own panels if they weren't safe/up to code...
Great read on the second post you did as well. I like the simply put explanations that even us non sparkies can understand !!!

Those interlock kits look familiar !!
52232451269_b0e9cd904e_b.jpg

They were in these panels since the panels were first installed and have been use a few dozen times since.
52231180827_80c875df6e_b.jpg

Four different times the inspector has been here and not once have the interlocks been an issue ....
52232177171_ec27a8060a_b.jpg

I was in a picture taking mood so here is the panel that houses the cord that goes to the genny. Non UL Listed lock ......
52232659780_2973bfece7_b.jpg

Said genny cord stored out of the sunlight behind an unassuming panel so no one drives by and cuts the damn thing off.
52232660305_cd32d84e26_b.jpg
 
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wyliesdiesels

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Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Messages
20,004
Location
Modesto, CA
Here is a quote from the product information from that piece.

“It keeps you from accidentally removing the breaker and having energized contacts in your hand. The door of the load center should tell which hold down fits your needs.
Manufacturer: ‎Siemens”


“Can you tell me how to identify these so called backfed rated breakers on the store shelf? (literally theres no special model # or separate model # for backfed rated breakers.)”

Actually I can tell you. I guess I’ll have to hand it to you a third time before you understand it. Read the NEC section 795.12(D) that is posted above. If it is too complicated for you let me know and I’ll break it down for you. I have never looked for the indicators before as I had no need. I am not interested in pulling any off my panels to check them. I did have 2 loose 15 amp breakers, both are suitable for backfeed under the above guidelines.

As to how much experience I have. Look in my first post. I am not an expert in this field and I said so in my very first word. The caveat you should probably have included was ‘I know enough about the code to be dangerous’

I worked at the gas utility for 15 years. I knew the code then, for the pipeline work as well as the electronics that I worked with verbatim, as I could be asked by the commission at any time. I have since moved on and opened my own welding contracting company. I have been in business for 17 years. How about yourself?
you apparently lack reading comprehension skills...

the quote you posted makes no sense. again ill say, the hold down kit doesnt shut off the feeding breaker when you remove the hold down kit. so it doesnt prevent what they claim. one can remove the hold down kit and still have a live breaker.... why? because they have to shut off the feeding breaker first. are you even following anything here?

as to the label of the backfed breakers, that was a trick question as none of the breakers on the store shelves have any label whatsoever as it pertains to backfeeding. none of them say line and load. therefore they can all be used in a backfed situation.

its quite clear here that you dont really pay attention to anything... smh
 

mike93lx

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Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Messages
37,499
Location
Richmond, VA
Great read on the second post you did as well. I like the simply put explanations that even us non sparkies can understand !!!

Those interlock kits look familiar !!
52232451269_b0e9cd904e_b.jpg

They were in these panels since the panels were first installed and have been use a few dozen times since.
52231180827_80c875df6e_b.jpg

Four different times the inspector has been here and not once have the interlocks been an issue ....
52232177171_ec27a8060a_b.jpg

I was in a picture taking mood so here is the panel that houses the cord that goes to the genny. Non UL Listed lock ......
52232659780_2973bfece7_b.jpg

Said genny cord stored out of the sunlight behind an unassuming panel so no one drives by and cuts the damn thing off.
52232660305_cd32d84e26_b.jpg
I like the box for your generator cord. Great idea
 

Walkers

Well-known member
Joined
May 17, 2021
Messages
3,912
Location
Cave Creek Az
Since most everybody has been far too polite to say it, stop be a **** for the sake of being a ****.
If you think anything here is **** mode, then you'd best not show up on any job site anywhere. This is just brothers dishing it out a they received it. I haven't really seen any name calling or slander, or really anything I wouldn't see between brothers.
 
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