which t8 fixtures?

[jethrob]

I'm having a time on deciding which T8 fixtures to buy.
I'm going to need approx 30 four foot fixtures or 15 8 footers.

Are these any good?
http://www.menards.com/main/lightin...escent-plug-in-shoplight/p-1385009-c-7242.htm

They are supposed to be "high performance".

The biggest minus I can see is the ballasts are not replaceable and it may cause trouble getting one that looks like it if I have to replace one down the road.

I can run outlets and use plug into it or direct wire.

 

[jethrob]

They have a class P ballast.
http://www.menards.com/main/store/2...nFluorescent/Prod_Tech_Spec/prod_234SLESW.pdf

 

[mbatarga]

For my 38' x 60' shop, I bought 20 of these:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lithonia...te-Strip-Light-TC-2-32-120-1-4-GESB/100192753

 

[jethrob]

Nice.
Do you have any clue if they are better?

I think the menards ones might be dimmable.

 

[jethrob]

walmart has these and they cost a little less

I have no idea on how to compare these lights
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Lights-of...tate-Shop-Light-White/19759624#Specifications

 

[MonoxieChild]

Menards has the Stainless look version that the Original poster linked to on sale right now for $20 then you get a $5 rebate. I just purchased a bunch for my own garage.

 

[bigboost]

I bought 8 of these for my 24x40, I think it rivals the sun.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lithonia...ing-Fixture-IB-632-MVH/202193185?N=5yc1vZc7bu

 

[Black_Z28]

For my 38' x 60' shop, I bought 20 of these:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lithonia...te-Strip-Light-TC-2-32-120-1-4-GESB/100192753

I've been considering these for my garage. But, sometimes I hear people have issues with radio reception. And, I need to have the radio going when I'm in the garage. Have you had any of these issues?

 

[mbatarga]

I've got a portable radio in the shop on FM And don't have any issue.

 

[Robert Hall]

I bought 2, 4 bulb fixtures, from home depot and I love them. Those suckers are bright!

I think they're great.

 

[EOC_Jason]

I wouldn't recommend getting 8' bulbs. They are just a pain to store and handle... They make 8' long fixture that have two 4' in a row (so 4 lights total). That way too if you have other 4' fixtures then you only need one type of bulb to keep spares of.

 

[pattenp]

jethrob, I know you are trying to save a buck but those hanging plug-in style lights are just not the best to use for such a large installation. In the long run you'd be better off with a hardwired fixture. If you were just putting in a couple or so in a small shed then those would be fine. I assume these are going in a shop/garage that's on a concrete slab floor and if you use outlets to plug in the fixtures, the outlets need to be GFCI protected.

This is a better fixture........ http://www.menards.com/main/lightin...t8-lamp-4-ft-strip-light/p-2182624-c-7495.htm

 

[jethrob]

http://www.doitbest.com/Flourescent...model-TC2321201+4GESB-doitbest-sku-528048.dib

what about these

 

[Fishplate]

I assume these are going in a shop/garage that's on a concrete slab floor and if you use outlets to plug in the fixtures, the outlets need to be GFCI protected.

I didn't think you needed to use GFCI if the outlets were above a certain height...but my code class was some years ago.

 

[pattenp]

All 120V outlets in a garage need to be GFCI. There is no height exception. I can't remember what code cycle that changed.

I didn't think you needed to use GFCI if the outlets were above a certain height...but my code class was some years ago.

 

[pattenp]

Those are good.

http://www.doitbest.com/Flourescent...model-TC2321201+4GESB-doitbest-sku-528048.dib

what about these

 

[Mustang51js]

All 120V outlets in a garage need to be GFCI. There is no height exception. I can't remember what code cycle that changed.

In my update class the teacher was going over this and I believe it was above 8 feet or something like that, things like garage door opener outlets, didn't need it because they are not readily accessible. Now I'm not sure if it's for the actual gfi outlet or anything above that height. I know we don't do garage opener outlets but I never put lighting receptacles in ceilings in garages

 

[pattenp]

Nope .. NEC 210.8 (A)(2) All 125V receptacles in garage shall be GFCI protected. There are no exceptions for (2). There is an exception for (3)outdoor receptacles where not readily accessible dedicated to certain types of equipment.

In my update class the teacher was going over this and I believe it was above 8 feet or something like that, things like garage door opener outlets, didn't need it because they are not readily accessible. Now I'm not sure if it's for the actual gfi outlet or anything above that height. I know we don't do garage opener outlets but I never put lighting receptacles in ceilings in garages

 

[jethrob]

It's not a garage. It's a shop. Nothing will be garaged.

A GFI 12 foot up in the air is bs, "code" or not.

Before we get to far off kilter here I still don't know wtf to look for in a fixture. May try the do it best ones at 45 a pop. Heard the balast is made in Mexico and junk but I don't have to drive out of town for them. It would be nice if they were dimable at that price.

 

[jethrob]

$45 per 8 foot 4 bulb fixture or $15 per 2 bulb four foot fixture is about the max I'm willing to spend.

Choices are
http://www.menards.com/main/lightin...t/96-t8-double-striplite/p-1848414-c-7495.htm

http://www.menards.com/main/lightin...escent-plug-in-shoplight/p-1385009-c-7242.htm

http://www.doitbest.com/Flourescent...model-TC2321201+4GESB-doitbest-sku-528048.dib

http://www.lowes.com/pd_163723-337-...t&pl=1&currentURL=?Ntt=strip+light&facetInfo=

 

[jethrob]

I'm leaning towards the Lowes unit, has a slyvania balast with 60 month warranty, had the least online complaints.

 

[jethrob]

jeez what a friggin pita to shop. I can't find spec sheets on 3 out of 4 of those fixtures. The only one's I could find good detailed info on was the Lowes units. Figured out they don't have radio suppresors:-(

 

[dtcooper]

I don't know of any retailer fixture that's going to be dimmable. A T8 4 lamp dimming ballast is about a 40-60 $ adder. That's on the wholesale COST side. I'm a manufacturer's rep for Hubbell Lighting. Look at a Columbia, cooper, lithonia, daybrite, or other name brand. They all have 10% THD ballasts. That will limit any radio interference that you may experience. The retail branded fixtures typically use a cheaper, import, lighter duty ballast. Sure they may not cause interference, but you're giving up longevity.

 

[forced induction]

I have the lowes units and love them so far. Looking to stall many more. Using 5000k Philips bulbs at 3100lumens each.

 

[pattenp]

Garage, shop, no difference if the floor is a concrete slab at ground level. All receptacles need GFCI protection, even the one 12 feet off the floor. End of being off track. As far as the fixtures go, I'd go with Cooper(Metalux), or Llithonia.

It's not a garage. It's a shop. Nothing will be garaged.

A GFI 12 foot up in the air is bs, "code" or not.

Before we get to far off kilter here I still don't know wtf to look for in a fixture. May try the do it best ones at 45 a pop. Heard the balast is made in Mexico and junk but I don't have to drive out of town for them. It would be nice if they were dimable at that price.

 

[dtcooper]

One thing to consider, when discussing lumen output, and available light in a space..
Fluorescent lamp lumens are calculated/measured in a mirrored environment, with 100% reflectance. The 3100 lumens that someone above claims their fluorescents are putting out, is initial lamp lumens. NOT DELIVERED LUMENS. There's no way to deliver 100% of the light output from the lamp, to the work surface..

LED strips on the other hand ie: http://www.columbialighting.com/products/lcs/
Shows delivered lumens. You could take a fixture with considerably less "lumen output" than a 8' tandem (4-4' T8 lamps), and actually have more "light" at the work plane height.
For example- the 3100 lumen lamps above, (4 lamps in an 8' fixture) might actually only deliver 8000 lumens total. But the 8' Medium Lumen package LED Strip as seen on the above link, DELIVERS 11,200 lumens, while only using 106 watts of electricity..
Your cost on that strip would be in the 230-245 range.. But it would be fully dimmable (0-10v control), have a 5 year no questions asked warranty, and would likely be maintenance free for 20 years..
One other thing to consider, if looking at LEDs.. Lithonia and Cooper both buy LED chips from the cheapest bidder at any given time. The chips/boards/driver in their fixtures today, might not match what they have available in 2 years.. Philips companies (Daybrite, Ledalite), and Hubbell Lighting (Columbia, Spaulding, Kim,) make their OWN LED chips.. And use matching drivers..
I know all of the info is enough to make your head spin. But the current cost of LED technology in fixtures, make the fluorescent / LED debate, much more affordable, and relatively close in terms of payback. If you have any questions, just ask..

 

[vonhef]

One thing to consider, when discussing lumen output, and available light in a space..
Fluorescent lamp lumens are calculated/measured in a mirrored environment, with 100% reflectance. The 3100 lumens that someone above claims their fluorescents are putting out, is initial lamp lumens. NOT DELIVERED LUMENS. There's no way to deliver 100% of the light output from the lamp, to the work surface..

LED strips on the other hand ie: http://www.columbialighting.com/products/lcs/
Shows delivered lumens. You could take a fixture with considerably less "lumen output" than a 8' tandem (4-4' T8 lamps), and actually have more "light" at the work plane height.
For example- the 3100 lumen lamps above, (4 lamps in an 8' fixture) might actually only deliver 8000 lumens total. But the 8' Medium Lumen package LED Strip as seen on the above link, DELIVERS 11,200 lumens, while only using 106 watts of electricity..
Your cost on that strip would be in the 230-245 range.. But it would be fully dimmable (0-10v control), have a 5 year no questions asked warranty, and would likely be maintenance free for 20 years..
One other thing to consider, if looking at LEDs.. Lithonia and Cooper both buy LED chips from the cheapest bidder at any given time. The chips/boards/driver in their fixtures today, might not match what they have available in 2 years.. Philips companies (Daybrite, Ledalite), and Hubbell Lighting (Columbia, Spaulding, Kim,) make their OWN LED chips.. And use matching drivers..
I know all of the info is enough to make your head spin. But the current cost of LED technology in fixtures, make the fluorescent / LED debate, much more affordable, and relatively close in terms of payback. If you have any questions, just ask..

The LED fixtures really interest me... but where can I purchase?

 

[dtcooper]

Any electrical wholesale supply house can hook you up.. I see you're in Southern, Oklahoma.. Where exactly ?? My sales territory includes Paris, TX. If you could make a trip there, I could get one of my distributors to fix you up. I can work up a project quote, and give you pricing, then just get the order from them, with pre negotiated pricing to you.
They don't turn away "free business"..

 

[dtcooper]

If you're interested, I could do a layout of your shop, and show you point by point, the actual footcandle levels at various workplane heights, using the fixtures..
Honestly, if I recall your dimensions correctly from earlier in the post, you won't need ANYWHERE NEAR as many fixtures as you'd allotted..

 

[jethrob]

bought 15 of the lowes metalux with the philips/advance ballast

$40 a pop

 

[jethrob]

If you're interested, I could do a layout of your shop, and show you point by point, the actual footcandle levels at various workplane heights, using the fixtures..
Honestly, if I recall your dimensions correctly from earlier in the post, you won't need ANYWHERE NEAR as many fixtures as you'd allotted..

my shop is 30x48

I'm running 3 8 foot fixtures with tandum t8's every 8 foot for 5 rows in the middle where the trusses are.

 

[dtcooper]

jethrob,
I was mistakenly thinking that Vonhef had started the topic...
If you already bought the fixtures, I am certain you'll be happy with your purchase..

Give me your ceiling height, wall and ceiling colors & material.

 

[tknice]

I searched and searched for 4ft LED lights and it seemed that all bulb replacements required that I bypass the balast in a regular housing. Finally I found these complete LED lights for $99 each:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006KC9SF0/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&seller=#productDetails

I installed 3 of them in my 2 car garage--one over each "section" and the 3rd over my workbench. The two that are ceiling mounted light up the entire garage bright white and the the one over the workbench (just installed last night) is perfect task lighting. They were well made for the price and easy to install. The only downside is they do not come with cords if you don't plan to hardwire them. I had three computer power cords laying around that were easy to modify and add. White, green, and black wires in the cord are the same on the LED light.

Hope this helps!

TK

 

[dtcooper]

TK,
I'm glad you're happy with the fixtures you purchased...
BUT..
Those fixtures **** in every measurable category..
"super efficient 87 lumens per watt" - that's not very efficient at all.. The Columbia (as well as other brands) are upwards of 108 LPW..

5700k color temp- that is SO bright BLUE/WHITE- that the color rendering *****. Hope you're not trying to view anything color critical under them.

LED light fixtures (as with most other things in life)- you get what you pay for..

Are those fixtures better than fluorescent? Yes, most likely so..
Are they as good as other, higher quality fixtures?? not nearly..

All LED fixtures are NOT created equally..

In our industry, we have three parameters. I am sure they apply to most things in life..

Good, Cheaper, Fast... You typically get to choose two of the three. But the cheaper and good combination, is a strained effort (at best).

 

[tknice]

TK,
I'm glad you're happy with the fixtures you purchased...
BUT..
Those fixtures **** in every measurable category..
"super efficient 87 lumens per watt" - that's not very efficient at all.. The Columbia (as well as other brands) are upwards of 108 LPW..

5700k color temp- that is SO bright BLUE/WHITE- that the color rendering *****. Hope you're not trying to view anything color critical under them.

LED light fixtures (as with most other things in life)- you get what you pay for..

Are those fixtures better than fluorescent? Yes, most likely so..
Are they as good as other, higher quality fixtures?? not nearly..

All LED fixtures are NOT created equally..

In our industry, we have three parameters. I am sure they apply to most things in life..

Good, Cheaper, Fast... You typically get to choose two of the three. But the cheaper and good combination, is a strained effort (at best).

What is "your industry", I assume that is driving your response? I don't do any painting in my garage, it's purely a project workshop and I am thrilled that it is FINALLY well lit. There are two other standard 150w CFL light bulbs on the ceiling near the new LEDs and don't come anywhere close to lighting the room like the LEDs do. Eventually, I'll replace those with 5700-6000k LEDs as well. I have no affiliation with these people, just bought it and like them.

When I say they are well made, the LED strips look to me like they are soldered nicely and should last. The shade/reflector is a bit flimsy but I recognize that a $99 light will not be built like a tank. Obviously I can't speak for how long they will last--I guess time will tell. The garage lights turn on automatically and off again after 15 minutes of no motion. That will help longevity.

I don't know what else to say other than if you're looking for a 4ft lighting solution that is safer than florescent tubes, this one comes on instantly at full bright and is pretty damn good. Buy one and see if you like it.

 

[dtcooper]

TK,
I've posted several times in my few responses, that I am in fact in the lighting industry.. That's no secret..

As I said, if you're happy with them, great !! I know that not everyone goes for the Cadillac of any endeavor..

In a work shop, hobby shop, garage, etc., the high kelvin temp will make you feel as if it's brighter.. even if it's not. Again, if that works for you, great. I just wouldn't want someone to buy those lights, then try to paint cars under them.

The world of LEDs (at this point in time) is similar to liars poker.. You have to really study the specifics of various fixtures to find out what "better" even is..

Kudos to you for lighting your shop in a way that works for you. That, after all, is what it's all about.. We all have to do what works for each of us.

 

[2ManyProjects]

I'm having a time on deciding which T8 fixtures to buy.
I'm going to need approx 30 four foot fixtures or 15 8 footers.

Are these any good?
http://www.menards.com/main/lightin...escent-plug-in-shoplight/p-1385009-c-7242.htm

They are supposed to be "high performance".

Or so the ad copywriter says. And you know that ad copywriters are the motherlode of reliable technical information, right? (And BTW, just what is "high performance" supposed to mean, in this context?)

Jethro, we've been through ALL of this, months ago:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=227384

and you're still wringing your hands and publicly wrestling with yourself over what SHOULD be a fairly simple decision.

You DO NOT want plug-in "shop lights", period.

You DO NOT want 8-foot long fixtures, even if they use 4-foot tubes. Ones which require 8-foot tubes are even worse.

With only 12-foot ceilings, you DO want twin-tube 4-foot fixtures which use F32T8 tubes and get installed via hard-wiring. I suggest any of the following:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lithonia-Lighting-2-Light-Utility-Light-3348-2L32W-WRAP/100654395

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lithonia...hite-Fluorescent-Light-Fixture-3324/202192968

http://www.lowes.com/pd_163697-337-WP232RLU_0__?productId=3181895

http://www.lowes.com/pd_336745-13537-336745_0__?productId=3686312

http://www.lowes.com/pd_384285-337-WP217RNKLLU_0__?productId=50077497

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lithonia...rescent-Strip-Light-C-2-32-120-GESB/100543144

...with the Utilitech 49-in Wrap Light (third one down in the list above) probably being my first choice, as long as you DON'T need any matching 2-foot models to fill in gaps, etc..

The biggest minus I can see is the ballasts are not replaceable and it may cause trouble getting one that looks like it if I have to replace one down the road.

All of the fixtures under discussion are inexpensive enough that the simplest approach to the "spare parts" issue is to simply buy a couple more fixtures than you're actually going to need, and leave them on the shelf for "someday". Call it "cheap insurance".

I can run outlets and use plug into it or direct wire.

No outlets. No plugs. Hard-wire ONLY.

http://www.doitbest.com/Flourescent...model-TC2321201+4GESB-doitbest-sku-528048.dib

what about these

No. See above.

It's not a garage. It's a shop. Nothing will be garaged.

Doesn't matter.

A GFI 12 foot up in the air is bs, "code" or not.

BS or not, it's the law. And it not only adds cost, it is a practical problem in the making when used with fluorescent lights (which can cause "nuisance trips"). Hence, hard-wire is ONLY right way to go.

Before we get to far off kilter here I still don't know wtf to look for in a fixture.

Appropriate overall design vis-a-vis the application, generally decent build quality, and a good ballast. Those are the main things, anyway.

May try the do it best ones at 45 a pop. Heard the balast is made in Mexico and junk but I don't have to drive out of town for them. It would be nice if they were dimable at that price.

For all intents and purposes, NO fluorescent lamp is "dimmable". Even the ones which claim such are only partially so, and require some rather expensive dedicated controls to accomplish even that much. Forget it. Use enough 4-foot twin-tube fixtures to permit you to set up a proper "multi-bank" switching scheme, and moderate your brightness as needed that way.

$45 per 8 foot 4 bulb fixture or $15 per 2 bulb four foot fixture is about the max I'm willing to spend.

Why are you willing to spend half-again as much to do it the less desirable way? That doesn't make sense.

And a $15 fixture of any stripe is near-certainly going to be a piece of ****, regardless of any other considerations. Don't be so penny-wise and pound-foolish.

 

[dtcooper]

2 many,
I take contention with your "NO fluorescent lamp is dimmable" comment above...

Using Advance Mark 10 Powerline dimming ballasts, you have FULL DIMMING CAPABILITY, using LINE VOLTAGE DIMMERS (less than $10 each), from 5%-100% full range, flicker free.

Just as I said in my other post: standard in stock fixtures wouldn't have those ballasts in them. But telling someone that they don't exist, is simply not true. I sell thousands of them per year..

http://philipslightingcontrols.com/mark-10-mark-7

 

[dtcooper]

And why you would suggest against using 8' tandems, is beyond me..

an 8' tandem would be considerably less expensive than 2- 4' fixtures.
Even if he went with dual ballast 8' fixtures, he could switch them independently, and have in effect "dual level" switching, to reduce light output for tasks which didn't require the full light output.

 

[jethrob]

I can darn near see inside now without any electric during the day, which is when I'll be working in there.

I went with the 8 foot coopers, it's already decided, going to hang them every 8 foot to hide the seam/screw line.

I'm still not for certain if they are better than the "high performance" 4 foot menards fixtures. I can't find any hard data on those but the blast is non-replaceable and I could see it becoming a problem in the future.

As far as GFCI goes $35 buys a GFCI breaker and it would take only one 20 amp to run all the lights in the shop.

If you have any sources for data on the 4 foot menards high po fixtures I would love to see it just for fun.