bobcatdan
Well-known member
John Deere engines are full of them, main reason I bought all of mine.
Who would ever need a 12-point socket?
- Thread starter alpinewhite
- Start date
I have seen a 6 point outperform a 12 point on a few isolation occasions where the fastener was pre-rounded to begin with. That was the only time I've seen it make a difference.
People who use vise grips on hex fasteners are wrenching with very poor form.
People who put the same nut/bolt they just vice gripped back in for reassembly need their tool privileges revoked, and need to not ever bring their machine to me.
People who use vise grips on hex fasteners are wrenching with very poor form.
People who put the same nut/bolt they just vice gripped back in for reassembly need their tool privileges revoked, and need to not ever bring their machine to me.
Futremechanic
Well-known member
I know some of newer models of Massey Ferguson tractors have some 12point bolts.
ianguilly
Well-known member
Just about all my dads sockets are 12pt since he messes with plane engines.
Have you still not figured this out? He was talking about the need for a socket not a wrench! How sheltered can you be to never run across a 12 point bolt you did see the picture of that head bolt right? Good luck using your 6 point socket on that bolt! Now how would you get your 12 point wrench on that bolt in a cylinder head in a hole between the casting, valve springs, rocker arms, cams etc even if you could how would you torque it, you do know what a torque wrench is right? The automotive industry is covered in them head bolts, rod bolts, flywheel bolts, starter bolts, wheel hub bolts, caliper bolts, axle nuts, drive shaft bolts etc.
I agree with you that 6 point sockets are better for a 6 point bolt, but if your gonna wrench much truthfully I think you need both.
peterbilr98
Well-known member
you dont take head bolts off whith a end wrench you use a socket and a ratchet depending on the size of the head bolt or you may use a air gun and a 12pnt socket you run the head bolts down whith a socket and a ratchet then you finish with a torqu wrench and a 12pt socket yes depending on what eng you are working on point is if your a diverse mechanic you will use 12pt sockets if you change oil and do tires you wont need 12pts i have a full set of 6 and 12pt but i work on every thing from my kids bikes to D10 cats
chris142
Well-known member
Head bolts on my Ford Pickup and my 4.0L jeep are 12pt as are the 3 bolts that hold the wheel bearings on my jeep.
mailpup
Well-known member
Some have already mentioned VW/Audi axle fasteners but also crankshaft bolts such as the 1.8T.
ihateminimumwage
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2012
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I'm part of the 12pt Chrome (from 1/4"-3/4" drive) & 6pt Impact socket crowd. Working on Diesel equipment they come up a LOT, and all the techs that just have 6pt sockets end up borrowing 12pt stuff all the time. Like said before, they're a must have for tight/blind spots with a breaker bar. I've honestly never had a situation where I absolutely NEEDED a 6pt.
V70R
Well-known member
19mm 12pt pulley bolts have been used for their 4cyl engines since 1993. My go-to set has always been an 8-19 12pt sockets, covers 75% of the tools needed for VAG cars.
wafrederick
Well-known member
Flex plate and flywheel bolts on Hondas.Seen them used for the clutch pressure plate retaining bolts too,a 12 point 10mm.I have a set of Matco 12 point impact sockets in metric including a 9/16 12 point Matco shallow impact socket,all 1/2 drive.
Gregg33
Well-known member
As indicated in other posts alot of makes of vehicles have at least some 12pt fasteners on them. Also, as others indicated they are easier to use with breaker bars and work on square bolts/ pipe plugs as well.
One thing not mentioned is 12 pt seems to be more common when buying older used sockets. So if you buy used tools it can be cheaper and easier to find 12pt.
I've used 12 pt sockets on many applications, including one time on very rusted bumper bolts and never had any problems. Unless you often wrench on very rusty vehicles I see no reason to not use 12 pt regularly as your "go to" sockets
One thing not mentioned is 12 pt seems to be more common when buying older used sockets. So if you buy used tools it can be cheaper and easier to find 12pt.
I've used 12 pt sockets on many applications, including one time on very rusted bumper bolts and never had any problems. Unless you often wrench on very rusty vehicles I see no reason to not use 12 pt regularly as your "go to" sockets
OP
alpinewhite
Well-known member
My rule is, if I'm using a ratchet and the bolt/nut is 6-sided, I'm using a 6-point socket. There should be no reason for me to use a 12-point socket in this example.
Drew_flux
Well-known member
Please forgive the stupid question but I was just wondering something.....
The picture posted a few posts above of a 12 point bolt seems to me, just from
looking at the picture, to be a triple square design. I thought all 12 point sockets
were a Bi Hex design... am I seriously being mega stupid, what am I missing..?
The picture posted a few posts above of a 12 point bolt seems to me, just from
looking at the picture, to be a triple square design. I thought all 12 point sockets
were a Bi Hex design... am I seriously being mega stupid, what am I missing..?
Hold on a second......let me get my calculator out.
Triple square you say?
Let's see......a square has 4 points......
A triple square would have 3 squares......
That's 3 squares with 4 points......
3 X 4 = 12
Thats quite a smarty pants answer, but my question was not how many points does a
triple square have. Obviously it has 12 points, and so does a bi hex have 12 points.
My questions was the angle of each point on a triple square is 90 degress and the angle
of each point on a bi hex is 60 degrees.
I thought all 12 point sockets were made with a bi hex design (i.e. 60 degree angles)
and from the look of that picture the bolts are made with a triple square design
(i.e. 90 degree angles) So really one should use triple square 12 point sockets on them
rather than bi hex 12 point sockets on them.
Thank you for posting that, very helpful illustration.
I guess my next question that probably cannot get answered is... Why would manufacturers
make triple square 12 point bolts when nearly every single 12 point socket on the planet
is Bi Hex... Some smart GJ'er must know...
Oh, and I think I should have also written 120 degrees instead of 60 degrees in my
previous posts. Unfortunately I cannot edit on the devise I'm using.
I guess my next question that probably cannot get answered is... Why would manufacturers
make triple square 12 point bolts when nearly every single 12 point socket on the planet
is Bi Hex... Some smart GJ'er must know...
Oh, and I think I should have also written 120 degrees instead of 60 degrees in my
previous posts. Unfortunately I cannot edit on the devise I'm using.
If you are reffering to the picture in post No.56... I have looked at it again and again
and I respectfully say you are wrong... that is not a double hex it is most definitely
a triple square.
Download the picture and zoom in on it.
Look at the angles off the points. They would be 90 degrees on a triple square, or 120 degrees on a double hex.
Looking closely, it looks like they're a little between. 110 degrees maybe... but still closer to double hex than triple square.
If you had the actual bolt in hand, you would find out quick by putting a common 12pt box wrench on it.
I was changing the assist springs on my garage door, these grab bolts are square head. good luck turning that thing with a 6-point socket.
Yeah, that's why you need a set of 8 point sockets.
Jim C.
It would be a lot clearer if the picture was larger, and from a directly overhead angle.
On one side, the angles look like mostly 120, on the other side closer to 90. I'm beginning to think the image quality is not sufficient to make a 100% definite determination.
On one side, the angles look like mostly 120, on the other side closer to 90. I'm beginning to think the image quality is not sufficient to make a 100% definite determination.
I would agree... hard to be 100% on that bolt. I did go and google 12 point bolts and
found one image of an arp head bolt that was taken square on and that was most certainly
a double hex, so I am quite sure now that most 12 point bolts are double hex which would
make sense. All is right with the GJ world again....
greasemonkey44
Well-known member
because they are out there; usually in high stress high torque locations
i have done 2 subaru head gaskets now, 12pt head bolts(14mm)
ford u joint straps iirc, ive got the 3/8 swivel socket for them
landrover brake caliper brackets and maybe hub bearing??
rear tow adjustment on a ford iirc
god help you if you dont recognize a bi hex from a triple square when doing heads on a early 2000s toyota 4 cyl
lets just say i tried to fudge it while the socket was delivered and it did not end well for me........
asian cars are bi hex, euro cars are triple square
i have done 2 subaru head gaskets now, 12pt head bolts(14mm)
ford u joint straps iirc, ive got the 3/8 swivel socket for them
landrover brake caliper brackets and maybe hub bearing??
rear tow adjustment on a ford iirc
god help you if you dont recognize a bi hex from a triple square when doing heads on a early 2000s toyota 4 cyl
lets just say i tried to fudge it while the socket was delivered and it did not end well for me........
asian cars are bi hex, euro cars are triple square
jimmycrackcorn
Well-known member
I have both SO 12pt 8-19mm and 5/16"-7/8" mid length sockets that I use as a goto set daily.
Perfer them as they engage much faster.
Perfer them as they engage much faster.
The "The fastener has 6 sides so I will use a 6 point" argument is no longer valid. There have been many demonstrations that a 12 point will engage in nearly the same exact location on the head of the bolt/nut. I, personally, have never NEEDED a 6 point, nor have I ever cost myself more time without having one. However, had I only had 6 point sockets in my tool collection, I would have NEEDED a 12 point, thus costing myself time and money.
I do not believe it is necessary to own both a 12 point and 6 point socket set. A 12 point will cover both of these, as well as 8 points.
I do not believe it is necessary to own both a 12 point and 6 point socket set. A 12 point will cover both of these, as well as 8 points.
OP
alpinewhite
Well-known member
Why are (almost?) all impact sockets 6-point then?
In my experience the 12pts stay in the put away in my storage cart and rarely get used.
I understand the 12pt argument, but in my own personal experience, you know stuff that actually has happened, I have witnessed 12pts round off bolts that were in rough shape that a 6 pt simply would not. Ever since I put the 12 pts away, and only bring them out for 12 pt bolts, I have had a lot less rounded off bolts at work.
Not to mention I use my 6 pts chrome on my impact tools all the time, I can't do that with 12 pt sockets.
12 pt sockets do not fit square fasteners. I work on a lot of Sting Ray corvettes, and a 5/8 square fastener holds the drain plug on the rear end for many years. 5/8 wrench has no room, and there is no 12 pt 5/8 socket (or any 12 pt) that is fitting it. My 5/8 "square" socket is actually a 8 pt, does the job well, and oddly the only 8 pt socket I own, I just don't see many square fasteners these days.
I understand the 12pt argument, but in my own personal experience, you know stuff that actually has happened, I have witnessed 12pts round off bolts that were in rough shape that a 6 pt simply would not. Ever since I put the 12 pts away, and only bring them out for 12 pt bolts, I have had a lot less rounded off bolts at work.
Not to mention I use my 6 pts chrome on my impact tools all the time, I can't do that with 12 pt sockets.
12 pt sockets do not fit square fasteners. I work on a lot of Sting Ray corvettes, and a 5/8 square fastener holds the drain plug on the rear end for many years. 5/8 wrench has no room, and there is no 12 pt 5/8 socket (or any 12 pt) that is fitting it. My 5/8 "square" socket is actually a 8 pt, does the job well, and oddly the only 8 pt socket I own, I just don't see many square fasteners these days.
kythri
Well-known member
To me, spline (or "universal") stuff is one of those "Jack of all trades, master of none" kinda tools.
If spline/universal stuff ever ends up in my toolbox, it'll be either because it was free, or I finally had something that had a spline fastener.
Chris_PT
Well-known member
On my car alone...
-Exhaust manifold nuts/studs
-Head nuts/studs
-Flywheel bolts
-All the internal engine fasteners
They are a must-have in the aftermarket engine world (i.e.-ARP)
-Exhaust manifold nuts/studs
-Head nuts/studs
-Flywheel bolts
-All the internal engine fasteners
They are a must-have in the aftermarket engine world (i.e.-ARP)
All you have to do is go one size up for square drain plugs.
7/16'' 12 point socket on a 3/8'' square.