theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Many, MANY years ago I decided I would never own another 12 point socket. I do know there are a few things that have 12 point bolts, but if I run into one, I will buy that ONE socket !
Why do Germans love Torx so much?
- Thread starter noahwins
- Start date
1cargarage
Well-known member
This actually isn't a chart of fastener head types. No no no. It's a chart of cryptography glyphs developed by the Germans and Japanese post-WWII after the Enigma code was broken. In the bolt patterns of their cars, motorcycles, and machinery I suspect their true agenda and propaganda can be found.
ChevyEFI
Well-known member
1CG, the secret word missing from that chart is pentalobular.
The Germans are a good 20 years ahead of any country as far as automotive technology. I'n fact they are responsible for the safety of EVERY motorist worldwide with their safety features. Mercedes-Benz near invented EVERY safety feature on the car you are driving today. No surprise they would adopt superior fasteners like Torx, they probably created the design.
richfinn
Well-known member
I think Volvo and Saab might take issue with that statement
There was also an American, Charles F. Lombard
who tirelessly lobbied the auto industry to adopt safety measures he had developed (when he wasn't firing himself down the tracks on a rocket sled!!!)
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CGarage
Well-known member
They used to use Inhex and found that Inhex would cam out easier than Torx, so they have actually updated part numbers and have changed a lot of the old design Inhex fasteners to Torx, even on older models.
CGarage
Well-known member
More than 20 years ahead. The S-Class Mercedes is the rolling lab for every new safety feature they can come up with.
ABS brakes?
Electronic stability control?
Air bags?
Crash cell?
Crumple zones?
Collapsing steering column?
Multi-layer glass?
All Mercedes inventions that they develop the tech and IP for.
An S-Class Mercedes is a ~ $ 1 Billion dollar design and development test bed for them for every chassis generation. They spend something like $1M/day on R&D.
richfinn
Well-known member
This isn't entirely true, (I work on a Mercedes contract)
Airbags were in some American built cars a full 10 years before the S class adopted it in 1981
The explosive element was by a Japanese engineer in the 60s
ABS brakes were used in Aircraft long before automobiles
I'm not knocking Mercedes safety record, but they can't claim to have invented equipment they bought in from outside!!
BarryWells
Well-known member
I'm an allen guy myself. Use them every time I build a machine
CGarage
Well-known member
Read up online:
Why Torx is better than Hex.
Why Torx is better than Hex.
American Locomotive
Well-known member
- ABS had existed on aircraft and cars well before Mercedes used it. Mercedes were the first to implement an all-wheel ABS system, though.
- Stability control was pioneered by the Japanese automakers starting in the early 80s with anti-skid, traction control and engine torque management systems. Both Mercedes and Toyota released what might be considered "modern" stability control in '95.
- Air bags were in use by American automakers almost a decade before Mercedes ever offered them.
- GM was the first to use collapsible steering wheels, and other American automakers had experimented with "flexible" steering wheels prior.
- Laminated safety class was a large effort of French, Canadian, British and American inventors iterating and improving on designs starting in the early 1900s.
I'll give 'em the safety cell and crumple-zones, but they didn't invent everything.
dnschmidt
Well-known member
The German's didn't invent Torx or E-torx or Torx Plus or whatever. These are all American inventions. What they did do is recognize a superior design and adopt it. The same is true of Pozidriv which all European hardware manufacturers such as Blum and Grass universally use. Pozidriv was invented by The Phillips Screw Company of America as even they knew that Phillips *****. Germans are practical people if something's better they use it. That's also why their Covid-19 stats make ours look so pathetic. If wearing a mask stops a pandemic they do it. In America we turn something this simple into a political argument.
rlitman
Well-known member
No. Pozidriv was patented by GKN, which is a British company, in 1962. Supadriv was a later improvement, also by GKN.
aka Larry
Well-known member
BlakeTheCarGuy
ALLIANCE MEMBER
I do see a lot of torx on the German cars I have worked on except my beetle because it’s old and full of flat head screws. But I see a lot more triple squares usually even though that’s mostly in European cars but occasionally a German car will have it.
Sent from my iPhone using Garage Journal
Sent from my iPhone using Garage Journal
garfunkle24
Well-known member
I knew those Germans were idiots when they made the Me 262 operational. I mean piston engines were so much easier for home-gamers to work on. Piston engines like the Diesel. Oh wait, they invented that. Never mind then, how about the electron microscope? I mean who needs one of those to understand the universe? Plus they're a PITA to take apart and have WAY too many parts.
Cliff notes: There are good and bad engineers the world over and Torx is better than a LOT of internal drive fasteners.
Cliff notes: There are good and bad engineers the world over and Torx is better than a LOT of internal drive fasteners.
Mechanical Noise
Well-known member
Torx is the dumbed-down version of the superior Bristol drive, Both were invented in the US.
Torx does have the advantage of being somewhat cheaper, which is a big deal when pennies count.
Mechanical Noise
Well-known member
Impact drivers can drive a phillips bit deeper into a damaged screw, giving the bit a new bite which didn't exist before. The flat end of a torx bit makes this alot more unlikely.
TuxThePenguin
Well-known member
The slope on the phillips bit is what makes it want to cam out in the first place. A flat bottom is a huge improvement and huge part of why Torx is better.
Also I see some guys lumping Phillips and flathead together... This is not accurate. Slotted screws don't have camming out issues. They have an issue that they aren't self-centering. They're actually a lot better than Phillips as far as holding torque goes. It's just really freaking annoying when the screwdriver slips off.
Mechanical Noise
Well-known member
The camout is caused by the non parallel drive surfaces. This is true for flat blade and phillips screws. The point on the end of the driver isn't the problem.
Just imagine a cross point drive with perfectly parallel surfaces. How would applied torque force the driver in a vertical direction?
Germany is, famously, a European country
richfinn
Well-known member
Many modern smaller European Mercedes actually have Renault/Nissan DCi engines nowadays
The Mercedes F1 car/engines are both built in England (which is technically in Europe but not the EU)
The Mercedes F1 car/engines are both built in England (which is technically in Europe but not the EU)
German love of Torx is just a subset of the General German Love of all internal fasteners.
Before Torx, the Germans loved Allen Hex - some hated that b/c they have to clean all the crud out of the fastener recess before they can remove it.
But the Germans have an answer! You must not allow any crud on ze German car!
Before Torx, the Germans loved Allen Hex - some hated that b/c they have to clean all the crud out of the fastener recess before they can remove it.
But the Germans have an answer! You must not allow any crud on ze German car!
What is the DIN Std. for those?
For ext. hex it is 10. 13. 15. 17. 19 mm - very rational an spaced, tho IIRC my old BMW 2002 had a lot of 14mm on it.
BlakeTheCarGuy
ALLIANCE MEMBER
dutchgray
Well-known member
They are actually Renault/Nissan platforms with a different body and a nicer interior and more features for a much higher price.
The vast majority of F1 stuff is built in England, mostly within a relatively small area of the country.
NoahG
Well-known member
I'm just thankful there isn't Metric Torx and Imperial Torx, like there is with hex keys.
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
The last one to make my eye twitch was 5 point torx.
At least with most hex fasteners they're not completely flush, so you can beat a turbo-socket on there and remove it. Torx almost never give you that ability. I removed MANY rounded out internal hex fasteners until we discovered a coworker didn't know metric internal hex existed. Let me tell you, a 3/8 allen key in a 10mm fastener will round into another dimension.
NoahG
Well-known member
I removed MANY rounded out internal hex fasteners until we discovered a coworker didn't know metric internal hex existed. Let me tell you, a 3/8 allen key in a 10mm fastener will round into another dimension.
That makes me sad and angry at the same time.
Usually it’s the small sizes I’m fighting, because they don’t always fit what they’re “supposed” to.
TuxThePenguin
Well-known member
Not an ex-coworker?
If I got my car back with rounded off bolts because someone like that worked on it....
Imagine going to the store and buying SAE tools but completely ignoring the metric ones... how could this even happen?
jeepnut24
Well-known member
My Jeep has a lot of torx... broke a lot of bits replacing them as I find them.... T25 seems to be the worst size.... I have a collection of busted t25 sockets t27 a close second
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
Small sizes ****, torx is way better for the teeny-tiny stuff. Although with the torque one is usually dealing with when you break out the 2mm hex key it really doesn't matter what you use. It seems hex fasteners have the poorest of quality control of everything. Cheese-like metal with pre-rounded corners from the factory. For hex, I typically find what I think fits, then attempt to hammer in the next size up. Much like torx, an undersized tool dooms a hex fastener.
Not an ex-coworker?
If I got my car back with rounded off bolts because someone like that worked on it....
Imagine going to the store and buying SAE tools but completely ignoring the metric ones... how could this even happen?
Yes, now ex-coworker - for a variety of reasons, not that specifically. Had plenty of metric otherwise, must have skipped over the hex keys. It took a few cars for me to figure that out, then he bought a metric set. A classic example of some who "knows" cars, but has little hands on experience. They can be very dangerous, but with proper supervision they learn quickly and it's a non-issue.
As I recall I removed with a turbo-socket. I ended up massaging the internal areas, and reinstalling with the proper tool. After torquing, they where removed again, and re-torqued, to confirm the next guy wasn't screwed.
Toyota V6 intake manifold bolts? Usually stupid tight coming out, but the spec is like 18ft/lb or something. Even with high quality bits, I sometimes opt to save the inside of an internal hex for reassembly, and simply hammer on a turbo socket to remove.
barnonline
Active member
This is why: https://rtstools.com/why-torx-bolts-are-better-than-hex-bolts/
And yes Phillips is an abomination, that should be banned.
And yes Phillips is an abomination, that should be banned.
TalonFE
Well-known member
Speeds assembly and discourages casual investigations into the machinery's innards. No user-serviceable parts inside....unless you invest in the correct "Werkzeug und Zubehor"
Just because you can't afford either doesn't mean they are ****.
Just means you are a peasant that doesn't appreciate fine engineering. When is the last time you drove your Ford Taurus down the road at 120 mph for hours on end. Wakefield
Well-known member
Different kinds of non-Phillips that look very much like it?
Just because you can't afford either doesn't mean they are ****.
I assume sarcasm with the smilies. I can afford both nonissue. Just don’t like them