Why does Snap-On continuously make people rage?

[JeepYJ]

Instead of struggling with the known worn out tool, why didn't you just use that brand new, shiny ratchet, in the first place?

Comparing one of the best ratchets ever made to one of the absolute worst pieces of garbage (the CM RP ratchet) isn’t even fair.
The SO was shiny and oiled up, the muddy field is no place for such an instrument.

 

[AEAdam]

Instead of struggling with the known worn out tool, why didn't you just use that brand new, shiny ratchet, in the first place?

Did you not understand the point of his story? Jesus, read it again.

@mreisner I think a lot of us have a story like yours. For me personally, I use my Snap On tools primarily for fixing family cars. I don’t find that work at all easy. It’s not every tool I pick up where the heavens open and angels sing when I use it. But having used cheap tools for a lot of my life, I really appreciate the tools I have now.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

As a Swede, i hate Snap-On for what they did to Bahco. Unforgivable.

Do tell. What's the story there?

 

[ETJ]

Do tell. What's the story there?

Bahco bought Belzer (and dowidat) and discontinued the brand. Bahco was bought by Sandvik and then sold to Snap-on. It was then merged with some spanish tool maker. Snap-on then did the SBD thing and moved large part of the manufacturing to cheap asian countries. So it basically is euro version of Blue-point.

 

[M635_Guy]

Do tell. What's the story there?

I'm going to guess it was a "bought them, picked the useful pieces, left the rest to limp along" kind of thing.

Wasn't the Dual-80 mechanism invented by Bahco?

 

[AEAdam]

If Harbor Freight makes a Pittsburgh Pro bicycle, we should get one and send it to 2ndGearRubber.

In fact, we should look for Harbor Freight to make a reality show in Pittsburgh, about a Pro mechanic.
The show would make 2ndGearRubber a Pittsburgh Pro and an Icon.

Maybe we could resurrect the thread by MechanicNamedJohn.

Thread 'My Harbor Freight Investment' https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/threads/my-harbor-freight-investment.67850/

I’ve been refrerring to that thread a lot lately. Oh the irony! Even John himself is still a bit defensive of his “investment”.

To me, it was $3000 down the drain, spent on disposable Chinese ****. $3000 is a lot of money. Of the tools he still uses, what is their value?

Remember this was 2010, long before Icon, when Taiwan tools were too high end for HF.

 

[JeepYJ]

To me, it was $3000 down the drain, spent on disposable Chinese ****. $3000 is a lot of money. Of the tools he still uses, what is their value?

I remember that thread. His $3,000 made him enough money to buy nicer and more tools. Even if the $3,000 tools were completely worthless at $0 that is still only $3,000 in depreciation. $30,000 worth of SnapOn tools surely would have at least 10% depreciation on the used market?

Did you not understand the point of his story? Jesus, read it again.

The CM RP ratchets weren’t considered “cheap” tools back in the day. They were awful but there weren’t that many readily available options that were better at that time. There are still Craftsman RP ratchet fans out there today. The cheapest Pittsburgh ratchet from HF is better than any RP ratchet I’ve used. And I have a whole drawer full of those things from the 1970-90s that hardly ever get used.

 

[d.mcfarland]

I’ve been refrerring to that thread a lot lately. Oh the irony! Even John himself is still a bit defensive of his “investment”.

To me, it was $3000 down the drain, spent on disposable Chinese ****. $3000 is a lot of money. Of the tools he still uses, what is their value?

I know nothing about johnyocd but that whole thing seemed like internet karma farming in a way. Tools looked brand new and then replaced with MAC stuff that continued to look brand new. Going off of memory here. I think there was even other social media that he made just to basically show off the perfectly clean and organized toolbox (youtube for example).

Wasn't he claiming he only worked on high end cars like concours type stuff?

 

[mreisner]

Instead of struggling with the known worn out tool, why didn't you just use that brand new, shiny ratchet, in the first place?

It wasn't worn out it was just ****** to start with and was what was in the toolbox on the combine. I went back to the shop and got the better one.

 

[zendriver]

Did you not understand the point of his story? Jesus, read it again.

Yes I did.

The brand new tool performed much better than the worn out one.

Are we now to believe that a Snap On ratchet mechanism, will never wear out over time as well? Hopefully not, since I know for fact that, it would not be true.

 

[zendriver]

It wasn't worn out it was just ****** to start with and was what was in the toolbox on the combine. I went back to the shop and got the better one.

Fair enough, I guess my experiences are different.

I have a 1/2" raised panel Cman ratchet, that's been my go-to since about 1999.

 

[dogdog]

Bahco bought Belzer (and dowidat) and discontinued the brand. Bahco was bought by Sandvik and then sold to Snap-on. It was then merged with some spanish tool maker. Snap-on then did the SBD thing and moved large part of the manufacturing to cheap asian countries. So it basically is euro version of Blue-point.

You know that’s a lie, snap on is made in merica tools

 

[ETJ]

You know that’s a lie, snap on is made in merica tools

That was short history of Bahco and why Swedes are upset at Snap-on. Snap-on moved large part of Bahco's manufacturing to cheap asian countries, Happy?

 

[AEAdam]

Fair enough, I guess my experiences are different.

I have a 1/2" raised panel Cman ratchet, that's been my go-to since about 1999.

Jesus, then no you didn’t. Pretty sure his point was, the cost of that premium ratchet was worth it to him on that single job alone, avoiding knuckle busting and frustration.

So that was the start of a journey for him when he decided he didn’t want the frustration of dealing with bargain tools.

I think a lot of us have been there.

 

[JeepYJ]

There are still Craftsman RP ratchet fans out there today.

I have a 1/2" raised panel Cman ratchet, that's been my go-to since about 1999.

And here is one of them!

 

[JeepYJ]

he didn’t want the frustration of dealing with bargain tools.

I don’t think most people would consider the Craftsman ratchets to be “bargain tools”
They weren’t “cheap” back in the day. The design just wasn’t that good. But for their era they weren’t the worst by a wide margin.

 

[zendriver]

Jesus, then no you didn’t. Pretty sure his point was, the cost of that premium ratchet was worth it to him on that single job alone, avoiding knuckle busting and frustration.

So that was the start of a journey for him when he decided he didn’t want the frustration of dealing with bargain tools.

I think a lot of us have been there.

As long as you are sure.

 

[AEAdam]

I remember that thread. His $3,000 made him enough money to buy nicer and more tools. Even if the $3,000 tools were completely worthless at $0 that is still only $3,000 in depreciation. $30,000 worth of SnapOn tools surely would have at least 10% depreciation on the used market?

Yep, irony lost. He announced he was a pro and that he was buying all Pittsburgh tools and he was praised for his discovery of the magical Chinese tool store. 10 years past, tons of comments about the quality and value of HF tools, we learn, not added to, but REPLACED the box, the wrenches, sockets and ratchets with Mac.

 

[JeepYJ]

Yep, irony lost. He announced he was a pro and that he was buying all Pittsburgh tools and he was praised for his discovery of the magical Chinese tool store. 10 years past, tons of comments about the quality and value of HF tools, we learn, not added to, but REPLACED the box, the wrenches, sockets and ratchets with Mac.

And? Most people upgrade as time goes on whether it be their home, neighborhood, vehicles, whatever. His cheap tools did a lot of work for him and allowed him to get nicer things. He probably did more in a month than the average DIY home garage guy does in a lifetime.

 

[zendriver]

And here is one of them!

To me, it's a ratchet.

I use it to loosen and tighten fasteners. As far as the "feel"?

 

[AEAdam]

As long as you are sure.

Sorry if I lost my sense of humor, brother. Didn’t want you to miss what the gentleman was saying because that same story belongs to a lot of us. I wanted you to hear it, understand it.

Theres another thread where the OP is looking for validation to buy $40 Pittsburgh wrenches. At least buy Icon for $80. Wrenches are not tools you only need one job. And to @mreisner‘s point, that one time you need your tools to perform could make all the difference to you.

Sorry if I was talking at you and not to you.

 

[JeepYJ]

To me, it's a ratchet.

I use it to loosen and tighten fasteners. As far as the "feel"?

They ****. Go to HF and get a Pittsburgh Pro for about $20 and you will appreciate how much better having more than 12 teeth in your ratchet is!

 

[AEAdam]

And? Most people upgrade as time goes on whether it be their home, neighborhood, vehicles, whatever. His cheap tools did a lot of work for him and allowed him to get nicer things. He probably did more in a month than the average DIY home garage guy does in a lifetime.

With respect, that wasn’t the point or tenor of the thread. Don’t add your editorial spin. The point of the thread was, look at me, I’ve outfitted myself as a pro with $3000 and I have all the tools I will ever need. And GJ congratulated his wisdom.

BTW, not every young tech has $3000 to invest. None of my kids could or would do that.

I forget which one of you said it. There’s an ”in your face“ aspect/culture to some HF tool proponents. And it’s rarely, “look at my starter tools. They are really nice for starter tools. Icon is so much better than craftsman ever was“.

It’s “My HF tools are the exact same tools as snap on, but cost 1/5, in your face snap on fan bois, **** it, mic drop”.

Yeah, that’s gonna rub some people the wrong way and some tool rage may result.

 

[JeepYJ]

With respect, that wasn’t the point or tenor of the thread. Don’t add your editorial spin. The point of the thread was, look at me, I’ve outfitted myself as a pro with $3000 and I have all the tools I will ever need. And GJ congratulated his wisdom.

BTW, not every young tech has $3000 to invest. None of my kids could or would do that.

I’d there any reason he could not have continued working with his $3,000 tool set?

If your kids can’t or wouldn’t invest $3,000 in tools how would they ever get started with tool truck or even mail order USA made tools?

 

[zendriver]

They ****. Go to HF and get a Pittsburgh Pro for about $20 and you will appreciate how much better having more than 12 teeth in your ratchet is!

I though it was the raised panel, that bummed everyone out.

Can't. $20 is a lot of money and It's part of a nice (I think) 1/2" set, still with plastic case.

My heirs will have to toss them into the roll-off.

 

[zendriver]

Sorry if I lost my sense of humor, brother. Didn’t want you to miss what the gentleman was saying because that same story belongs to a lot of us. I wanted you to hear it, understand it.

Theres another thread where the OP is looking for validation to buy $40 Pittsburgh wrenches. At least buy Icon for $80. Wrenches are not tools you only need one job. And to @mreisner‘s point, that one time you need your tools to perform could make all the difference to you.

Sorry if I was talking at you and not to you.

I do understand his feeling.

I was only referencing the comparison.

 

[JeepYJ]

I though it was the raised panel, that bummed everyone out.

Can't. $20 is a lot of money and It's part of a nice (I think) 1/2" set, still with plastic case.

My heirs will have to toss them into the roll-off.

I have a bunch of the RP ratchets, some from my dad and others from sets or bought individually when I was a youngster. I’ve done a ton of work with them, some of that even as a real mechanic. But they’re still terrible. I don’t mind the raised panel it’s the gearing and mechanism in them that is awful.

 

[JeepYJ]

I was only referencing the comparison.

It would be similar to trying to pound a nail into a 2x4 with a rock. Then you pick up a framing hammer and are impressed with how much easier it is to drive a nail

 

[mreisner]

Fair enough, I guess my experiences are different.

I have a 1/2" raised panel Cman ratchet, that's been my go-to since about 1999.

And I still have a couple of them floating around ,some were much better than others. In this instance the reduced Arc swing provided much less frustration while lying on my back working over my head.The Craftsman was not the tool for the job in this instance. Standing up conditions with good light, entirely different situation, they've done the job. Some of the Proto and Williams sockets that my dad bought in the '60s and early 70s are still on the job too. Whatever gets the job done and efficiently is the right tool for the job. When a several hundred thousand dollar machine is holding up several people running trucks and a grain dryer sitting empty and a storm is coming expensive tools can seem cheap.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

I don’t think most people would consider the Craftsman ratchets to be “bargain tools”
They weren’t “cheap” back in the day. The design just wasn’t that good. But for their era they weren’t the worst by a wide margin.

When was a raised panel craftsman ratchet anything but a cheap *************? I was born in 1990, so I'm genuinely curious if they were ever not complete trash.

 

[JeepYJ]

When was a raised panel craftsman ratchet anything but a cheap *************? I was born in 1990, so I'm genuinely curious if they were ever not complete trash.

They were trash but they weren’t cheap in the inexpensive sort of way. Made in the USA and I bet nearly every household in America had a t least one of those ratchets.
Complete trash ratchets were usually the round head models with the selector on the back of the head. There weren’t 72 tooth import ratchets available that cost $10 like todays $20 Pittsburgh Pro or Gearwrench.

*And thanks for making me feel super old this morning!

 

[AEAdam]

When was a raised panel craftsman ratchet anything but a cheap *************? I was born in 1990, so I'm genuinely curious if they were ever not complete trash.

Oh I can answer that one. In 1990, Craftsman pretty much dominated and were the best tools out there (barring the truck tools). They were sponsoring NASCAR teams. And side by side, Craftsman had a 32T ratchet and so did Snap On.

For weekend warriors, there were Taiwan tools which were absolute rubbish. But maybe the biggest barrier for asian tools was where they were offered. Maybe you could find them in an auto parts store. When HF started, they had really crappy merchandize. Not like today (honestly).

Some old timers I knew had SK, but they were nothing special. I had a pretty big set of Craftsman and still do. 3/8" sockets were ok. RP wrenches had unusable open ends. Those same 1990s vintage wrenches were tested by TTC and they were comparable to some modern Taiwan wrenches. I think in open ends, there's a pretty big difference between the top tier and the mid tier. 1/4" Drive craftsman was abhorrent. By the late 1990s, mediocre Craftsman tools became much worse Chinese Craftsman. You know the end of that story.

In my youth, Japanese cars like Honda were the WORST. Taiwan tools were terrible. Contrast that with today. Early Japanese made Civics were recalled for body rust.

BTW: I had performance failures with Craftsman that drove me to find better tools (Snap On). I was driving a Porsche to work every day. Swapping cam belts every 30,000 miles as required, yanking CVs, replacing suspension bushings, did an exhaust etc etc. Some sockets like bit sockets just weren't up to the task.

But I kept my Craftsman even after upgrading specific tools. What attracted me to Snap On after that was higher tooth count ratchets, and the hard handle screwdrivers, which were game changers for us. After ratchets I got wobble extensions which I don't recall seeing at Sears, then finally sockets and wrenches.

 

[toolenthusiast]

There are still Craftsman RP ratchet fans out there today.

Ah, yes, the foot fetishists of the tool community.

 

[zendriver]

I have a bunch of the RP ratchets, some from my dad and others from sets or bought individually when I was a youngster. I’ve done a ton of work with them, some of that even as a real mechanic. But they’re still terrible. I don’t mind the raised panel it’s the gearing and mechanism in them that is awful.

I just take it out, use it, wipe it off with WD40, then put it back in the case.

I do like it has the socket lock, that's probably something I should hate, as well.

GD Junk! I wish it would break so I can replace it with something else. FWIW I think I paid less that $40 for the 10pc set in'99

 

[AEAdam]

I’d there any reason he could not have continued working with his $3,000 tool set?

If your kids can’t or wouldn’t invest $3,000 in tools how would they ever get started with tool truck or even mail order USA made tools?

Yes. Debt. I think that’s the approach for most of our kids. And really, what is the difference between buying tools on credit to get a job, or taking out a college loan?

Thats my “Marie Antoinette“reference. We tell people to stay off the trucks and only buy what they can afford, without thinking they need tools for work and have no savings..

Good advice for us. Not good advice for them. I know a lot of young engineers. We have a fine engineering school near here, but it’s ridiculously expensive. Some have $200k debts.

My Rutgers U debt was about 1/4 th of my starting salary. These young engineers debt is 2-3X their starting salary. Of course Rutgers was my home state U, and the school I’m thinking about is private.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

They were trash but they weren’t cheap in the inexpensive sort of way. Made in the USA and I bet nearly every household in America had a t least one of those ratchets.
Complete trash ratchets were usually the round head models with the selector on the back of the head. There weren’t 72 tooth import ratchets available that cost $10 like todays $20 Pittsburgh Pro or Gearwrench.

*And thanks for making me feel super old this morning!

My father had some 70s era Taiwanese/japan stuff, the soft cheese sockets for instance. Even their ratchets with the chrome falling off were better than craftsman. Raised panel ratchets were almost unusable with the constant free spinning, auto reversing, slipping, etc.

They were only slightly better than the "free 50 piece socket set" with round head ratchet the parts stores would put coupons out for. I used them starting out, but basically anything you need to pull on I switched to a wrench because the Craftsman ratchets I used simply were not functional.

Oh I can answer that one. In 1990, Craftsman pretty much dominated and were the best tools out there (barring the truck tools). They were sponsoring NASCAR teams. And side by side, Craftsman had a 32T ratchet and so did Snap On.

For weekend warriors, there were Taiwan tools which were absolute rubbish. But maybe the biggest barrier for asian tools was where they were offered. Maybe you could find them in an auto parts store. When HF started, they had really crappy merchandize. Not like today (honestly).

Some old timers I knew had SK, but they were nothing special. I had a pretty big set of Craftsman and still do. 3/8" sockets were ok. RP wrenches had unusable open ends. Those same 1990s vintage wrenches were tested by TTC and they were comparable to some modern Taiwan wrenches. I think in open ends, there's a pretty big difference between the top tier and the mid tier. 1/4" Drive craftsman was abhorrent. By the late 1990s, mediocre Craftsman tools became much worse Chinese Craftsman. You know the end of that story.

In my youth, Japanese cars like Honda were the WORST. Taiwan tools were terrible. Contrast that with today. Early Japanese made Civics were recalled for body rust.

BTW: I had performance failures with Craftsman that drove me to find better tools (Snap On). I was driving a Porsche to work every day. Swapping cam belts every 30,000 miles as required, yanking CVs, replacing suspension bushings, did an exhaust etc etc. Some sockets like bit sockets just weren't up to the task.

But I kept my Craftsman even after upgrading specific tools. What attracted me to Snap On after that was higher tooth count ratchets, and the hard handle screwdrivers, which were game changers for us. After ratchets I got wobble extensions which I don't recall seeing at Sears, then finally sockets and wrenches.

HF wasn't super usable when I started working on friends cars around 2006. Mostly junk. Not that I had great tools! I sure rounded a lot of stuff with Craftsman 12 pt.

 

[mreisner]

Ah, yes, the foot fetishists of the tool community.

Thanks, I just spit out my iced coffee laughing so hard.

 

[JeepYJ]

And really, what is the difference between buying tools on credit to get a job, or taking out a college loan?

Depends on the circumstances.
Is the youngster in a trades school or tech program or starting out dumping oil and changing filters? Are they 100% sure they want to turn wrenches for a living and what kind of starting pay are they looking at?

I guess HF or similar could be considered the “community college” of tools. Snap-On would be Ivy League tools. State schools would be some mix of the two in between.
My son just started college in engineering. He’s going to his third choice school because they offered him the best deal. He doesn’t want to be buried in college debt when he starts working.

 

[dchawk81]

It wasn't worn out it was just ****** to start with and was what was in the toolbox on the combine. I went back to the shop and got the better one.

I'm thinking storage in a combine's tool box doesn't keep it at its optimum either.

 

[AEAdam]

I'm thinking storage in a combine's tool box doesn't keep it at its optimum either.

Stop it. Don’t blame the user.

These were bad ratchets that were known to reverse or release under load. This is why breaker bars were used. And we coupled them with 12pt sockets socket to make the breakers usable. Stop arguing with the margins and get the point being made.

Some of us have a limited threshold for ****** tools. Some of us can patiently deal with it.

If you are looking for a reason why some people LOVE Snap On and rave about it, while others can’t be bothered, look no further. That either ratchet can remove a fastener is absolutely not the point, nor does that make those two tools equivalent. There’s a ****** tool tolerance limit.

My limit for non-functioning **** is REALLY low. My wife loves AirBnBs. I don’t. I typically bring tools to fix all the broken **** on vacation. None of my cars squeak or rattle. Can’t have it. No faucets drip. My grandmother was German.