Why is everyone obsessed with U.S.A. Tools

[McFarmer]

ABC

Anywhere But China.

That balance of trade deficit is unsustainable.

Not to mention the unfair trade practices they employ. We look the other way because if it wasn't for cheap Chinese goods our economy would be so far down the crapper we'd never see daylight.

Walmart is keeping us afloat.

 

[username2]

I probably shouldn't even bother responding—your personal attacks make it obvious you're not going to have a discussion based on facts, but instead based on emotion.

I'm not making this up. Most economists are in agreement that bringing manufacturing jobs back to the US simply won't work the way you claim....

As a thought problem, and I can't say that I have a dog in this fight since I'm not as prescient as a professional economist (or John Stossel), it's worth thinking about countries that have strong buy-it-at-home attitudes.

The Germans appear to have super strong export markets and a really good balance of trade, but the citizens appear to strongly favor buying Hecho en Germany products. Are they wrong or are US buying habits misguided?

 

[Gautama]

I'm not faulting patriotism. I'm saying that I haven't been persuaded that America can or should become a manufacturing powerhouse the way it was 60 years ago.

Since I'm not coming at this with an emotional stake, I could be persuaded that I'm wrong. Make a strong argument. Give me some evidence to show I'm mistaken and I promise I'll look at it with an open mind.

 

[M6erfan]

I'm not faulting patriotism. I'm saying that I haven't been persuaded that America can or should become a manufacturing powerhouse the way it was 60 years ago.

Since I'm not coming at this with an emotional stake, I could be persuaded that I'm wrong. Make a strong argument. Give me some evidence to show I'm mistaken and I promise I'll look at it with an open mind.

I wouldn't hold your breath...

 

[Tinner]

OMG she is missing half her leg

Her name's Ilean and hey, she works cheap.

 

[T45]

I wouldn't hold your breath...

tools tend to be made were the work is. you benefit from the implicit know how of makin stuff locally. but also look what happened as well wi rare earth elements. good case study.

usa stuff died becasuse eveyone except snap on could not keep up with innovation. taiwan is on par with usa vintage if you pay up to same preicepoitns. any loss in materiel is offset by modern engineering. basically a wash. good news tho as cman is now chicom embarassment. but crappy mgmt, and maybe needing to rely on old assets to dqeeze out p4rofit.

new usa tools in new plants may work--sthlwille is doing it in ger with robots an prices comin down and stll keeing skills ad ppl workin. tools awesome. check out tbs spcls

 

[justanengineer]

I probably shouldn't even bother responding—your personal attacks make it obvious you're not going to have a discussion based on facts, but instead based on emotion.

I'm not faulting patriotism. I'm saying that I haven't been persuaded that America can or should become a manufacturing powerhouse the way it was 60 years ago.

Since I'm not coming at this with an emotional stake, I could be persuaded that I'm wrong. Make a strong argument. Give me some evidence to show I'm mistaken and I promise I'll look at it with an open mind.

Personal attacks? Are you that sensitive that being told you are wrong is offensive? If so I will be more careful, however its rather ironic that you're offended but claim to not bring emotion into this discussion.

I wasn't attacking you personally and genuinely did reread your post (#99) several times prior to my last response looking for something to agree with, unfortunately there simply wasn't anything available. Most of your comments regarding manufacturing are so far off that the word ignorance (a word meaning lack of knowledge, not a personal attack) really is the best description.

Electronic automation (rather than the previous mechanical automation) replacing manpower was the worry of the 60s and early 70s and has been shown repeatedly for decades to create more jobs than it replaced. You implied otherwise.

You repeatedly reference "unskilled labor" and "low" pay, suggesting this is common in manufacturing yet quite a few of this board's wealthier members are retired from or currently work in manufacturing and regularly share their skill. Many knock "button pushers," yet to be a "button pusher" today you often need months or years of specialized training. I've lost count of the former salaried computer/web/office folks who have thought manufacturing was "easy" and applied for work when their entire office closed, and have yet to meet one that was qualified for anything beyond the $14/hr-starting fork truck position. The stereotype about Bubba putting the same three screws in repeatedly is usually wrong, many lines today have multiple dissimilar products going down them simultaneously. My previous employer had 8, 12, and 16 cylinder engines on the same line with dozens of variants of naturally aspirated, 1-8 turbos, aftercooled and not, etc. Many auto plants are the same - rarely are two of the same model together on the line, and rarely is the assembler in the same station for more than a few weeks. Crossing over from assembly into production machining is much the same, to get onto a $100k+ cnc even as a "button pusher" requires a fair bit of knowledge regarding tool sharpening, precision measurement, print reading, and setup as multiple parts are run the same day or week on the same machine. Long story short - technology is constantly changing as our expectations of those using it.

Your post repeated the old narrative about greedy CEOs, again, a bad stereotype that is the exception rather than the rule. My current company president is responsible for bringing in $100M annually and earns <$250k, not too well paid but has it easy in some regards compared to others I've worked under. My previous Fortune 50 CEO earns $15M a year, sounds like a lot until you consider the position involves 300+ days traveling annually, weekly interviews with the press, and being responsible for $50B+. If thats not enough, with 18k employees and 100k+ investors he also regularly deals with wackos, slander, death threats, and other nonsense for things well beyond his control, little wonder the man has visibly aged from stress over only a few years as many POTUSes do. $15M still might sound greedy until someone mentions that even in down years every employee received a bonus, mine were never less than $8k. JMO but that CEO can keep his $15M, he's earned it, especially after 40 years with the company.

Your posts reference 60 years ago and suggest US manufacturing in the 50s was the high point but thats also rather far off, US manufacturing peaked in 1979.

You seem stuck on the concept that manufacturing is bad for the economy based on what you've seen in the media, from "economists" most of whom missed the 2008 housing bubble, 2012 mining, 2014 oil, and a few other collapses. Ironically I worked for two companies through those years who gave employees months of forewarning of the three mentioned, a few members here thought I was nuts when I mentioned saving cash to buy oil stocks two years ago. That might suggest something about media "experts." You also seem stuck on the concept that higher skilled jobs are better for pretty much everyone, yet thats very reminiscent of the mistaken belief that going to college leads to higher income. Sure, in many cases it does but in many more it doesnt. The "world economy" theory suggesting the US economy can bring in dollars primarily through management, engineering, info/IT jobs contributing technology while poorer countries handle manufacturing has one fatal flaw - we are competing as much for tech jobs as we are for low-level manufacturing jobs. Those "poor" countries like China and India are pumping out engineers, scientists, and industry leaders faster than we are. Theyre dam good and work for significantly less than their American counterparts do, its the reason why many white-collar STEM jobs have disappeared overseas. Moreover, 25 years ago the world economy theory was a wonderful new idea in the US machine tool industry, ask a few machinists who makes the best and most of the machines today (Asia) and who makes comparatively few and commonly considered disposable machines (US). Both the innovation and manufacturing have left the country in what was once a US dominated industry.

FWIW, I'm hardly basing anything on "I know a guy...." I'm basing everything on facts, history, and discussion with industry leaders. I've been a long-time student of industrial history and fortunate to meet quite a few of its leaders through work, am related to a few, and have been part of several "future executives" programs both internally to mega-corps and through professional associations. No, I'm not a somebody yet but do know enough that I will be extremely happy or disappointed in 20 years.

 

[Sugarfryz]

Personal attacks? Are you that sensitive that being told you are wrong is offensive? If so I will be more careful, however its rather ironic that you're offended but claim to not bring emotion into this discussion.

I wasn't attacking you personally and genuinely did reread your post (#99) several times prior to my last response looking for something to agree with, unfortunately there simply wasn't anything available. Most of your comments regarding manufacturing are so far off that the word ignorance (a word meaning lack of knowledge, not a personal attack) really is the best description.

Electronic automation (rather than the previous mechanical automation) replacing manpower was the worry of the 60s and early 70s and has been shown repeatedly for decades to create more jobs than it replaced. You implied otherwise.

You repeatedly reference "unskilled labor" and "low" pay, suggesting this is common in manufacturing yet quite a few of this board's wealthier members are retired from or currently work in manufacturing and regularly share their skill. Many knock "button pushers," yet to be a "button pusher" today you often need months or years of specialized training. I've lost count of the former salaried computer/web/office folks who have thought manufacturing was "easy" and applied for work when their entire office closed, and have yet to meet one that was qualified for anything beyond the $14/hr-starting fork truck position. The stereotype about Bubba putting the same three screws in repeatedly is usually wrong, many lines today have multiple dissimilar products going down them simultaneously. My previous employer had 8, 12, and 16 cylinder engines on the same line with dozens of variants of naturally aspirated, 1-8 turbos, aftercooled and not, etc. Many auto plants are the same - rarely are two of the same model together on the line, and rarely is the assembler in the same station for more than a few weeks. Crossing over from assembly into production machining is much the same, to get onto a $100k+ cnc even as a "button pusher" requires a fair bit of knowledge regarding tool sharpening, precision measurement, print reading, and setup as multiple parts are run the same day or week on the same machine. Long story short - technology is constantly changing as our expectations of those using it.

Your post repeated the old narrative about greedy CEOs, again, a bad stereotype that is the exception rather than the rule. My current company president is responsible for bringing in $100M annually and earns <$250k, not too well paid but has it easy in some regards compared to others I've worked under. My previous Fortune 50 CEO earns $15M a year, sounds like a lot until you consider the position involves 300+ days traveling annually, weekly interviews with the press, and being responsible for $50B+. If thats not enough, with 18k employees and 100k+ investors he also regularly deals with wackos, slander, death threats, and other nonsense for things well beyond his control, little wonder the man has visibly aged from stress over only a few years as many POTUSes do. $15M still might sound greedy until someone mentions that even in down years every employee received a bonus, mine were never less than $8k. JMO but that CEO can keep his $15M, he's earned it, especially after 40 years with the company.

Your posts reference 60 years ago and suggest US manufacturing in the 50s was the high point but thats also rather far off, US manufacturing peaked in 1979.

You seem stuck on the concept that manufacturing is bad for the economy based on what you've seen in the media, from "economists" most of whom missed the 2008 housing bubble, 2012 mining, 2014 oil, and a few other collapses. Ironically I worked for two companies through those years who gave employees months of forewarning of the three mentioned, a few members here thought I was nuts when I mentioned saving cash to buy oil stocks two years ago. That might suggest something about media "experts." You also seem stuck on the concept that higher skilled jobs are better for pretty much everyone, yet thats very reminiscent of the mistaken belief that going to college leads to higher income. Sure, in many cases it does but in many more it doesnt. The "world economy" theory suggesting the US economy can bring in dollars primarily through management, engineering, info/IT jobs contributing technology while poorer countries handle manufacturing has one fatal flaw - we are competing as much for tech jobs as we are for low-level manufacturing jobs. Those "poor" countries like China and India are pumping out engineers, scientists, and industry leaders faster than we are. Theyre dam good and work for significantly less than their American counterparts do, its the reason why many white-collar STEM jobs have disappeared overseas. Moreover, 25 years ago the world economy theory was a wonderful new idea in the US machine tool industry, ask a few machinists who makes the best and most of the machines today (Asia) and who makes comparatively few and commonly considered disposable machines (US). Both the innovation and manufacturing have left the country in what was once a US dominated industry.

FWIW, I'm hardly basing anything on "I know a guy...." I'm basing everything on facts, history, and discussion with industry leaders. I've been a long-time student of industrial history and fortunate to meet quite a few of its leaders through work, am related to a few, and have been part of several "future executives" programs both internally to mega-corps and through professional associations. No, I'm not a somebody yet but do know enough that I will be extremely happy or disappointed in 20 years.

Out of curiousity what do you do for work? Your post is extremely interesting btw

 

[shannonw]

The "world economy" theory suggesting the US economy can bring in dollars primarily through management, engineering, info/IT jobs contributing technology while poorer countries handle manufacturing has one fatal flaw - we are competing as much for tech jobs as we are for low-level manufacturing jobs. Those "poor" countries like China and India are pumping out engineers, scientists, and industry leaders faster than we are. Theyre dam good and work for significantly less than their American counterparts do, its the reason why many white-collar STEM jobs have disappeared overseas.

They also pump out incredible huge loads of unskilled (if you can even call it that) sold as h1b high skilled. Anyways they pump them out because there’s opportunities there and they know it. I’d argue, the shortage of labor is because of the outsourcing and the importing (h1b huge fraud).

Tell me, would you advise your kids to go into IT? or STEM?

 

[MDK22]

I think more on this forum are obsessed with tool warranties. Who cares if it works. Can I warranty my screwdriver? I dont care if its the worst fitting screwdriver ever but it has a lifetime warranty. Sign me up. There is a hand tool warranty obsession on this forum and its funny. Most that are so worried about it dont use them everyday but it has to have an easy warranty process. You wont break them if you barely use them so why does it even matter?

This man deserves a beer.

I have noticed that the people of this forum have all this advice to give yet 3/4 or more do not turn wrenches for a living. Once you do you understand a lot more.

 

[MDK22]

I probably shouldn't even bother responding—your personal attacks make it obvious you're not going to have a discussion based on facts, but instead based on emotion.
.......................................................

Lets make this simple extremely simple. You have $5 you buy a tool from steve. Steve lives in china. Does the US or does China have $5.

So now that Steve has $5 and everything is produced in China (for the most part) how does that $5 get back to the US.

Oh wait it doesn't. Because more then likely Steve is like the american Joe and spends 3/4 of his money on food, utilities, and housing.

Unless lets say Steve buys California Orange Juice so we get $1 back.

So now the US has $1 and China has $4.

How people do not understand this I will never ever know.

 

[kctyphoon]

Lets make this simple extremely simple. You have $5 you buy a tool from steve. Steve lives in china. Does the US or does China have $5.

So now that Steve has $5 and everything is produced in China (for the most part) how does that $5 get back to the US.

Oh wait it doesn't. Because more then likely Steve is like the american Joe and spends 3/4 of his money on food, utilities, and housing.

Unless lets say Steve buys California Orange Juice so we get $1 back.

So now the US has $1 and China has $4.

How people do not understand this I will never ever know.

You DO realize that other countries do buy stuff from us too right? It's not completely one sided. China is actually one of the world's fastest growing buyers of American exports. That sale is also supporting indirect jobs, like the people and company delivering the package, down to the people that unloaded the boat. As much as your argument would like to pretend money NEVER makes it back here, that it all simply disappears , that statement is not completely accurate. You also don't consider what other countries buy from us, where we might actually come out ahead in that case. That's why it's called TRADE, and not charity. So no, all of that $5 may not come back from China, but part of it might come back from the UK, or Germany in the form of auto sales or bank deals.

 

[McFarmer]

Lets make this simple extremely simple. You have $5 you buy a tool from steve. Steve lives in china. Does the US or does China have $5.

So now that Steve has $5 and everything is produced in China (for the most part) how does that $5 get back to the US.

Oh wait it doesn't. Because more then likely Steve is like the american Joe and spends 3/4 of his money on food, utilities, and housing.

Unless lets say Steve buys California Orange Juice so we get $1 back.

So now the US has $1 and China has $4.

How people do not understand this I will never ever know.

The dollars come back, just in the form of real estate purchase.

Farming is my area (surprise) China owns 1/4 of the hogs in the US. They are buying our food production system.

You herd it here first.

In addition they are currently in the process of buying a major crop production company.

Some shady dealing with a lawsuit and the share value going down, then they buy them. More complicated than I can get into.

 

[lazer50]

The post is about us tools. At this time and for many years the united states has produced the highest quality tools.mechanics of various industry and areas know this to be true.also if you read post from guys in the uk they use us made tools and pay premiums to get them.yes they use euro brand as well as do i as far as screwdrivers and a few items.while i have some tools that are tool brand made in taiwan and are tool truck brand,the quality is better than box store stuff but i have worked on precision machinery where the fit of a tool needs to be tight and sometimes a taiwan wrench or socket will not hold the surface.now for a typical mechanic or diy they may be fine.i still today what to buy this is a little off subject but ive always bought us made pocket knives kershaw mainly.my last one wore out prematurely that is the speed assist opening mechanism.i got to looking at it and its china now.so i went to bass pro shop to buy another after getting on blade journal forum i found out that only the us and japan used quality steel in their knives taiwan had some expensive knives but had poor quality steel and low rated mechanisms.so i bought a us buck.but anyway the guys that buy foreign tools that maybe thats what they can afford to start out or all thats available i.e. power tools well sometimes thats what you have to do.and they may serve you well.as far as jobs sure buying us tools will help a few jobs here and there.us quality has been around for many years and is today how long who knows.as long as its available thats what ill buy.

 

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

The dollars come back, just in the form of real estate purchase.

Farming is my area (surprise) China owns 1/4 of the hogs in the US. They are buying our food production system.

You herd it here first.

In addition they are currently in the process of buying a major crop production company.

Some shady dealing with a lawsuit and the share value going down, then they buy them. More complicated than I can get into.

Welp I posted an article earlier which showed that most dollars spent on Chinese goods don't even leave the US. Where something is manufactured is a relatively minor part of how much a product costs. When you buy a product, you're paying marketing people, transportation people, middlemen, etc.

 

[McFarmer]

Welp I posted an article earlier which showed that most dollars spent on Chinese goods don't even leave the US. Where something is manufactured is a relatively minor part of how much a product costs. When you buy a product, you're paying marketing people, transportation people, middlemen, etc.

Sorry, I'm a little slow.

I thought the reason for manufacturing it in China was to reduce costs.

I'm out of this.

 

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Sorry, I'm a little slow.

I thought the reason for manufacturing it in China was to reduce costs.

I'm out of this.

Mostly price, but some supply chain reasons too. But the cost is only reduced so much. Design and marketing are often done in the host countries as culturally they may be thought to understand the market better than someone in China (for example). And obviously transportation cannot be offshored.

 

[GTO]

Read the steel thread(post #42)then you will see why you don't want chinese made tools.

 

[Dirty Diesels]

Lets make this simple extremely simple. You have $5 you buy a tool from steve. Steve lives in china. Does the US or does China have $5.

So now that Steve has $5 and everything is produced in China (for the most part) how does that $5 get back to the US.

Oh wait it doesn't. Because more then likely Steve is like the american Joe and spends 3/4 of his money on food, utilities, and housing.

Unless lets say Steve buys California Orange Juice so we get $1 back.

So now the US has $1 and China has $4.

How people do not understand this I will never ever know.

No they don't, they exchange the dollar to yen, so the money never leaves your country!

 

[Keelhauled]

Lets make this simple extremely simple. You have $5 you buy a tool from steve. Steve lives in china. Does the US or does China have $5.

So now that Steve has $5 and everything is produced in China (for the most part) how does that $5 get back to the US.

Oh wait it doesn't. Because more then likely Steve is like the american Joe and spends 3/4 of his money on food, utilities, and housing.

Unless lets say Steve buys California Orange Juice so we get $1 back.

So now the US has $1 and China has $4.

How people do not understand this I will never ever know.

So we slap a bunch of tariffs on Chinese goods to promote buy American. Now the Chinese widget costs $10, same as the American one. American Joe doesn't have $10. He has $5. ***** to be Joe. No widget for him. But American manufacturing creates jobs! But in America labor is the biggest variable expense (actually it probably is everywhere), so lots of very smart people have been working for years to figure out how to replace all the Joes with robots. Now the American widget costs $6, but Joe is unemployed and doesn't have $6. No widget for him.

Robots are gonna take over everything. American manufacturing might return, but manufacturing jobs aren't. The only way domestic factories are competitive is to slash labor costs. There is an fundemental conflict between jobs and productivity. Same goes for the service industry. No more fast food workers. No more warehouse employees. Farms are going to need like one manager. Robots already milk cows, and tractors can drive themselves with GPS. Truck drivers will all get replaced. There will be strong demand for some very highly educated people to program, build and service the robots. Everyone else ia screwed. It will be the great problem of this century, and the policies to deal with are so far behind the technology it's scary.

 

[Gmonkee]

Trump level economics lessons. Cool.

Its a hell of a lot more complex than most think. Every level in the chain of factories to consumer has suppliers and overhead plus employee wages. All of that factors in until it's all grey areas.

 

[Gautama]

Trump level economics lessons. Cool.

Its a hell of a lot more complex than most think. Every level in the chain of factories to consumer has suppliers and overhead plus employee wages. All of that factors in until it's all grey areas.

Boy, ain't that the truth. The level of confidence someone has in a complicated subject often seems inversely proportional to how well they understand it. I already noted that I'm open to opposing views, but so far the arguments have been primarily based on personal beliefs.

 

[Gautama]

Personal attacks? Are you that sensitive that being told you are wrong is offensive? If so I will be more careful, however its rather ironic that you're offended but claim to not bring emotion into this discussion.

I wasn't attacking you personally and genuinely did reread your post (#99) several times prior to my last response looking for something to agree with, unfortunately there simply wasn't anything available. Most of your comments regarding manufacturing are so far off that the word ignorance (a word meaning lack of knowledge, not a personal attack) really is the best description.

Electronic automation (rather than the previous mechanical automation) replacing manpower was the worry of the 60s and early 70s and has been shown repeatedly for decades to create more jobs than it replaced. You implied otherwise.

You repeatedly reference "unskilled labor" and "low" pay, suggesting this is common in manufacturing yet quite a few of this board's wealthier members are retired from or currently work in manufacturing and regularly share their skill. Many knock "button pushers," yet to be a "button pusher" today you often need months or years of specialized training. I've lost count of the former salaried computer/web/office folks who have thought manufacturing was "easy" and applied for work when their entire office closed, and have yet to meet one that was qualified for anything beyond the $14/hr-starting fork truck position. The stereotype about Bubba putting the same three screws in repeatedly is usually wrong, many lines today have multiple dissimilar products going down them simultaneously. My previous employer had 8, 12, and 16 cylinder engines on the same line with dozens of variants of naturally aspirated, 1-8 turbos, aftercooled and not, etc. Many auto plants are the same - rarely are two of the same model together on the line, and rarely is the assembler in the same station for more than a few weeks. Crossing over from assembly into production machining is much the same, to get onto a $100k+ cnc even as a "button pusher" requires a fair bit of knowledge regarding tool sharpening, precision measurement, print reading, and setup as multiple parts are run the same day or week on the same machine. Long story short - technology is constantly changing as our expectations of those using it.

Your post repeated the old narrative about greedy CEOs, again, a bad stereotype that is the exception rather than the rule. My current company president is responsible for bringing in $100M annually and earns <$250k, not too well paid but has it easy in some regards compared to others I've worked under. My previous Fortune 50 CEO earns $15M a year, sounds like a lot until you consider the position involves 300+ days traveling annually, weekly interviews with the press, and being responsible for $50B+. If thats not enough, with 18k employees and 100k+ investors he also regularly deals with wackos, slander, death threats, and other nonsense for things well beyond his control, little wonder the man has visibly aged from stress over only a few years as many POTUSes do. $15M still might sound greedy until someone mentions that even in down years every employee received a bonus, mine were never less than $8k. JMO but that CEO can keep his $15M, he's earned it, especially after 40 years with the company.

Your posts reference 60 years ago and suggest US manufacturing in the 50s was the high point but thats also rather far off, US manufacturing peaked in 1979.

You seem stuck on the concept that manufacturing is bad for the economy based on what you've seen in the media, from "economists" most of whom missed the 2008 housing bubble, 2012 mining, 2014 oil, and a few other collapses. Ironically I worked for two companies through those years who gave employees months of forewarning of the three mentioned, a few members here thought I was nuts when I mentioned saving cash to buy oil stocks two years ago. That might suggest something about media "experts." You also seem stuck on the concept that higher skilled jobs are better for pretty much everyone, yet thats very reminiscent of the mistaken belief that going to college leads to higher income. Sure, in many cases it does but in many more it doesnt. The "world economy" theory suggesting the US economy can bring in dollars primarily through management, engineering, info/IT jobs contributing technology while poorer countries handle manufacturing has one fatal flaw - we are competing as much for tech jobs as we are for low-level manufacturing jobs. Those "poor" countries like China and India are pumping out engineers, scientists, and industry leaders faster than we are. Theyre dam good and work for significantly less than their American counterparts do, its the reason why many white-collar STEM jobs have disappeared overseas. Moreover, 25 years ago the world economy theory was a wonderful new idea in the US machine tool industry, ask a few machinists who makes the best and most of the machines today (Asia) and who makes comparatively few and commonly considered disposable machines (US). Both the innovation and manufacturing have left the country in what was once a US dominated industry.

FWIW, I'm hardly basing anything on "I know a guy...." I'm basing everything on facts, history, and discussion with industry leaders. I've been a long-time student of industrial history and fortunate to meet quite a few of its leaders through work, am related to a few, and have been part of several "future executives" programs both internally to mega-corps and through professional associations. No, I'm not a somebody yet but do know enough that I will be extremely happy or disappointed in 20 years.

I appreciate your response, but I'm still not persuaded. Your arguments are mostly "you're wrong" with an anecdote about your own experience, but no other sources. For example, you said I'm operating under the false assumption that CEOs are often overpaid. Here's what professor of law from Yale, Jonathon Macey says: "A much higher percentage of our top executives are overpaid than are underpaid," he said. "This pay imbalance between ordinary workers and top executives is actually contributing statistically more to income inequality and wealth inequality than previously had been thought."

Between 1940 and 1970, average CEO pay remained below $1 million (in 2000 dollars). According to the Economic Policy Institute (EPI), from 1978 to 2013, CEO pay at American firms rose a stunning 937 percent, compared with a mere 10.2 percent growth in worker compensation over the same period, all adjusted for inflation. In 2013, the average CEO pay at the top 350 U.S. companies was $15.2 million. (Source: http://democracyjournal.org/magazine/34/the-overpaid-ceo/)

In reference to my suggestion that STEM jobs pay more, this has been all over the news recently. "According to a new report from the National Association of Colleges and Employers, more than half the employers surveyed said they planned to hire graduates with bachelor’s degrees in STEM fields, making them the most sought-after candidates entering the job market."
Source: http://time.com/money/4189471/stem-graduates-highest-starting-salaries/

You fault me for trusting my sources, but expect me to defer to the judgement of a guy on a forum who has no sources other than his own personal experience (which is often contrary to researched positions). I'm sorry, but that simply isn't persuasive.

(As for your claim "I wasn't attacking you personally," generally calling a person names, in this case a snob, is considered a personal attack.)

I'm throwing in the towel on this one. I can't argue with emotion or anecdotes.

 

[openwheelracing88]

Holy Cow this forum is hilarious. Complete idiots mixed with well educated folks.

All I have to say is:

Made in the USA, excellent!!!! I found a Unicorn.
Made in Taiwan, great!!!!
Made in China, ....errrr I'll buy if it is cheap enough and works decently, because...why not? I got no gripe against hard working people.

 

[openwheelracing88]

Fun fact:

When you bought that iPhone couple years back, most of that money ended up in Germany.

 

[PJNJ]

Next topic to appear on the forum - "Why are highly educated business experts and nationally recognized economists obsessed with debating on a tool forum?"

 

[stikman56]

Lets make this simple extremely simple. You have $5 you buy a tool from steve. Steve lives in china. Does the US or does China have $5.

So now that Steve has $5 and everything is produced in China (for the most part) how does that $5 get back to the US.

Oh wait it doesn't. Because more then likely Steve is like the american Joe and spends 3/4 of his money on food, utilities, and housing.

Unless lets say Steve buys California Orange Juice so we get $1 back.

So now the US has $1 and China has $4.

How people do not understand this I will never ever know.

Soooooo, what about the US companies producing products in China for sale here? What about all the people employed by companies such as HF? Don't they live here, spend money here too?

 

[Gautama]

Meh. I'm probably wrong.

Every time I think I'm doing the right thing I find out I'm not. I've been a proponent of recycling electronics as opposed to tossing them into a landfill, only to learn that they take those electronics and ship them halfway around the world just to have some poor kid set the whole pile on fire so they can dig the scrap metal out to make money to buy food. So the ultimate effect is that some kid eats a meal while some polar bear dies due to global warming.

Being a human is hard.

 

[Gautama]

I want to add to justanengineer: I really appreciate that you're giving this a lot of thought. You're a smart guy, and I know you're also trying to make the best choices with the information you have, same as I am. It's clear that you have lots of first-hand experience on this topic, which I don't. I don't think I'm a snob, at least I hope I'm not. I guess I sound a lot more confident than I am about this subject. I appreciate the discussion.

 

[reader2580]

I buy American made tools to keep jobs here in America and American made tools are often better quality, but not always. Now, I always look for Made in USA first, but sometimes for price and availability reasons I buy Chinese made stuff. There are time when the Chinese item is $20 and the American item is $70. I can't justify the difference for a few uses.

I bought a Husky wrench (COO China) for $7 or so at Home Depot last winter. The open end was totally out of spec for the size wrench it was marked as. I took it back and ordered a set of mixed Williams and Wright wrenches from HJE for around $100.

Someone linked to an article that shows that nearly 90% of what we buy in the USA is made here, but they also included food. Even if China is fairly small part of the overall picture the problem is consumer goods are way, way more than 10% from China or overseas. Walk down the housewares aisle at Walmart/Target and you're lucky if more than 1 in 8 items is made in the USA.

My parents bought a pressure canner the other day as their old one cracked. One made overseas is $70 while an American one is over $200. They bought the overseas one, but they might get it tested before they use it for $20 or so.

My salary is paid in large part from advertising cheap import stuff so I guess I have to like Chinese goods in some way.

 

[Gautama]

I buy American made tools to keep jobs here in America and American made tools are often better quality, but not always. Now, I always look for Made in USA first, but sometimes for price and availability reasons I buy Chinese made stuff. There are time when the Chinese item is $20 and the American item is $70. I can't justify the difference for a few uses.

I bought a Husky wrench (COO China) for $7 or so at Home Depot last winter. The open end was totally out of spec for the size wrench it was marked as. I took it back and ordered a set of mixed Williams and Wright wrenches from HJE for around $100.

Someone linked to an article that shows that nearly 90% of what we buy in the USA is made here, but they also included food. Even if China is fairly small part of the overall picture the problem is consumer goods are way, way more than 10% from China or overseas. Walk down the housewares aisle at Walmart/Target and you're lucky if more than 1 in 8 items is made in the USA.

My parents bought a pressure canner the other day as their old one cracked. One made overseas is $70 while an American one is over $200. They bought the overseas one, but they might get it tested before they use it for $20 or so.

My salary is paid in large part from advertising cheap import stuff so I guess I have to like Chinese goods in some way.

It's a real pisser that Americans can't afford to buy products made in their own country. Meanwhile, Apple pays 500 euros in taxes on every 1,000,000 euros in profit. The days of robber barons aren't over. But to hear people defending CEOs making so much more money because they "work harder?" WTF. It's like Stockholm Syndrome.

"According to a Federal Reserve report, nearly half of Americans couldn't cover a $400 emergency expense without borrowing the money or selling something. More than half of households have less than one month's worth of income in a readily available savings account, far from the six-month emergency fund many experts recommend.

Even more alarming is that many people have no savings at all. In fact, almost 30% report having a zero balance, and 62% have less than $1,000 in savings, according to a survey by GOBankingRates.com. An additional 21% report having no savings account whatsoever." http://www.fool.com/retirement/gene...e-americans-saving-habits-9-scary-statis.aspx

6% of Americans with a college degree are working more than one job, and a recent poll showed that most of them feel they can't even take a sick day because they fear getting fired (which is illegal but happens often enough that most Americans fear it).

It boggles my mind when people being exploited by this oligarchy are defending the perpetrators. That's some Grade A brainwashing.

Ignore my rant, I'm turning into a socialist.

 

[joelrobison]

It may sound silly to some of you, but up here in Northern Minnesota (Iron Mining Country) it certainly does mean something to buy American made tools, with American steel.

I'm not sure how to quantify it exactly, but I did grow up with tools I inherited from family, some older craftsman's that were made in USA. These tools somehow seemed more substantial, and I don't mean heavy in weight - but dense?? not sure.

I also have had experience when I set out on my own of buying some other tools, not sure where they were made as I didn't care at the time - but work up here can be hard to find and I had to fix my $100 beater cars (combination of several Pontiac Sunbirds actually, laugh its fine) and needed some new metric sockets. They were good for probably a year and then they would split or round off. Since then I've put effort into finding tools that seem more substantial in the feel and even the ring they make when I tap them against something hard - Not sure about you guys, but I can hear a difference, something different in how they are forged maybe - i'm no expert.

Today I actually have a mix of things, S&K, Older Kobalt (which I had read the older ones actually were made in the US) and inherited Craftsmans

Just my 2c - sorry if this doesn't help

 

[mike.zeiderman]

It's a real pisser that Americans can't afford to buy products made in their own country. Meanwhile, Apple pays 500 euros in taxes on every 1,000,000 euros in profit. The days of robber barons aren't over. But to hear people defending CEOs making so much more money because they "work harder?" WTF. It's like Stockholm Syndrome.

"According to a Federal Reserve report, nearly half of Americans couldn't cover a $400 emergency expense without borrowing the money or selling something. More than half of households have less than one month's worth of income in a readily available savings account, far from the six-month emergency fund many experts recommend.

Even more alarming is that many people have no savings at all. In fact, almost 30% report having a zero balance, and 62% have less than $1,000 in savings, according to a survey by GOBankingRates.com. An additional 21% report having no savings account whatsoever." http://www.fool.com/retirement/gene...e-americans-saving-habits-9-scary-statis.aspx

6% of Americans with a college degree are working more than one job, and a recent poll showed that most of them feel they can't even take a sick day because they fear getting fired (which is illegal but happens often enough that most Americans fear it).

It boggles my mind when people being exploited by this oligarchy are defending the perpetrators. That's some Grade A brainwashing.

Ignore my rant, I'm turning into a socialist.

I think that has more to do with living within your means than anything else, without going into detail I am a prime example. I live what I consider very comfortable, could afford pretty much anything I would want with cash. Can and have covered loss of (1) income for 6 months with out using credit. My friends say I am a cheapskate tightwad, I say I am just frugal, and very much enjoy life because of it. And I don't make a **** ton of money. If people would just realize not to follow the Jones and enjoy what you have the debt crisis in this great country would be minimal.

Sent from my SM-T230NU using Tapatalk

 

[reader2580]

It's a real pisser that Americans can't afford to buy products made in their own country.

I can afford to pay for American made tools, but in some case I choose not to do so. I have occasionally been burned by Chinese tools where the steel just bends.

I need a stake puller and I am trying to find one made in USA. I also need a fiberglass sledgehammer and I am debating American versus import. Cost is $30 versus $70 or more. It is hard to justify two to three times the price for something used once a year.

 

[four.cycle]

It's a real pisser that Americans can't afford to buy products made in their own country. Meanwhile, Apple pays 500 euros in taxes on every 1,000,000 euros in profit. The days of robber barons aren't over. But to hear people defending CEOs making so much more money because they "work harder?" WTF. It's like Stockholm Syndrome.

"According to a Federal Reserve report, nearly half of Americans couldn't cover a $400 emergency expense without borrowing the money or selling something. More than half of households have less than one month's worth of income in a readily available savings account, far from the six-month emergency fund many experts recommend.

Even more alarming is that many people have no savings at all. In fact, almost 30% report having a zero balance, and 62% have less than $1,000 in savings, according to a survey by GOBankingRates.com. An additional 21% report having no savings account whatsoever." http://www.fool.com/retirement/gener...ry-statis.aspx

6% of Americans with a college degree are working more than one job, and a recent poll showed that most of them feel they can't even take a sick day because they fear getting fired (which is illegal but happens often enough that most Americans fear it).

It boggles my mind when people being exploited by this oligarchy are defending the perpetrators. That's some Grade A brainwashing.

Respectfully, while your comments may well be true, they're a bit off on a tangent there; addressing a much larger issue - the demise of the putative "middle class" and reversion to a feudal system.

But I have to ask: "Who are the perpetrators"? Who is this "they"?

It's a real pisser that Americans can't afford to buy products made in their own country.

I'm not sure I'd agree with you on that point. I'm inclined to believe it's more a matter of choices and priorities.
Sure, if you want to have all the "stuff", you're going to have to buy some imported "stuff" (unless you're a millionaire.) But if you can manage to live without all the "stuff" you can be choosy and buy US made goods.
You just won't have as much "stuff".
As noted above, our economy is based on American consumers continuing to buy buy buy more and more "stuff" - something for which there is no logical reason or justification. We don't need another 20 million LED-lighted electric reindeer imported into this country every year, but for reasons which have never been clear to me people go to Target Walmart KMart and buy more LED-lighted electric reindeer every year.

 

[E.rodz]

interesting ways of thinking here! my personal opinion is if you want your country to manufacture things in this country you have to buy thing that are made in this country. to help make our economy sustainable so we can give our kids a great place to grow up and pass values on for the future of this county that many have died for and gave up everything so future generations to come!. modern day ethics have driven people away from this kind of thinking, everyone now days just thinks about what can I get now and who can I f to get it! companies have out sourced things for top profit and don't care about anything else yep you can buy a craftsman wrench made in china and a small portion will go to a tool company but if it was made here to it would also support electricians,pipefitters,carpenters,shippers,insurance co,ect,ect.

buy buying things made in this country you are supporting many different families that also support manufacturing. This is what made this country such a industrial power house for so long.

if you want manufacturing in this country you need to buy things made in this country! please people look into the future before you make that next purchase!

 

[shannonw]

STEM is going to be pointless if you keep outsourcing and h1b importing. Don’t think it’s just technology, accountants are getting outsourced, engineers you name it. Companies with access to that exploit it, and internally you’re told to look for a low cost alternative before insourcing. While there’s stem articles and studies on the stem shortage there’s also ones out there claiming this is all a false narrative for the outsourcing and h1b programs and there’s more us graduates than jobs. Which is true i dunno...the news is all ****, but i know where i’d bet my money on which is true from what i see in technology.

Of course these are all the jobs when nafta was passed that was supposed to replace the losses and it’s the same argument they use for tpp, we can retrain. Sell off one end then the other.

Anyways off thread. But on thread i was thinking just a couple weeks ago that i always figured made in the usa = 50,60,70,80’s and when we bought our first house in the late 90’s i’d buy whatever was cheap at home depot. Anyways i always figured that was china stuff because i didn’t know any better then. I noticed couple weeks ago in what i thought was my junk tool box (i just thew old stuff in there from those days without looking) dang a lot of it was usa made, pipe cutters, pvc pipe cutters, nicholsen files all usa made and this was stuff i’d go into home depot and just buy nothing special i was broke and super cheap back then. I noticed last night the nicholsen files there were mexico. Anyways just a contrast in only 10-15 years even

 

[jd_1138]

I got a neighbor who retired from the local union factory where he made a great salary, bought a nice house, put 2 kids through college, etc.. But the co. went belly up, so now his pension and healthcare are paid for by the federal government. He's getting about 90% of what it should've been, I think is what he said. He worked at a place that provided parts for the local GM plant.

But yet the dude constantly *******/loathes the government. Um, dude the gubment (funded by taxpayers) pays your pension/medical. And the dude has been buying Korean cars the last decade for him, wife, and the kids. He still has a daughter in high school at home, and she has a nearly new Kia. What a way to thank the country/taxpayers that pay for you to exist - buy Korean cars. Yeah sure they are made in the USA, but their pay/benefits are not as good as what a UAW member makes. And the profits go back to Korea.

Meanwhile I am not in a union but I buy Fords. If everyone had his philosophy, he might've been flippin' burgers the last 30 years instead of enjoying a high salary job (he just has a high school diploma) enabling him to buy a nice house/add on, buy a new boat every 5 years, put the kids through college with no debt, etc.. His "screw everyone else; I got mine!" attitude is pretty common, though.

 

[reader2580]

I got a neighbor who retired from the local union factory where he made a great salary, bought a nice house, put 2 kids through college, etc.. But the co. went belly up, so now his pension and healthcare are paid for by the federal government. He's getting about 90% of what it should've been, I think is what he said. He worked at a place that provided parts for the local GM plant.

Pension funds pay an insurance premium to the PBGC to insure their pension funds. It isn't a freebie provided by taxpayers. Most pensioners lose some of their pension if the pension fund is taken over by the PBGC. I am surprised your neighbor still gets 90% of his pension after the takeover. Congress didn't set the insurance premiums high enough and eventually taxpayers may have to prop things up. (They didn't anticipate pensions going away so quickly and thus premiums going down.)

 

[Jim C.]

This has been an interesting thread to read through, and it evolved, or maybe devolved, into a very serious discussion. That's okay. Some of these threads take on a life of their own. I'm not sure what the OP was looking for in terms of answers, but my interest in USA made tools is pretty simple. Back when I was growing up, seeing MADE IN USA or FORGED IN USA on tools was common and the norm. Even homeowner grade tools were of relatively high quality. They were made to last from one generation to the next, and for the most part, they did. I think that's why there's such a large interest in USA made tools that were manufactured decades ago. Simply stated, "They're just plain good tools." I'd like to think that tools still being made in the USA are just as good, although that may not be true. Still, I'd like to put my confidence in something that looks familiar and stood for long lasting quality, something that says MADE IN USA. Maybe it's patriotism, sentiment, nostalgia, etc. on my part. With very few exceptions, all my hand tools are going to be marked with MADE IN USA or FORGED IN USA.

Jim C.