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Why the hate for Craftsman stuff?

greasemonkey44

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Re: Why The hate for Craftsman stuff?

i hear on here all the time about how grand pa had a set of raised panels and they never spread on him and blah blah blah
honestly i dont want raised panel wrenches, they do spread on the open end; they are short; they are ugly; they will do in a pinch however and are affordable
thier rp ratchets are bad too; but they do in a pinch and are affordable
i have alot of craftsman tools however, just not those
ive cracked enough of thier sockets; bent their wrenches; they don't stand up to punishment like i want them to and thats fine
normal people wouldnt want to spend what ive spent on tools; craftsman makes a fine product, its not for me however
also i couldnt care less about the finish on a tool....... seriously wtf; unless its shedding rust or chrome i couldnt care less what it looks like
 
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hickmlg09

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Re: Why The hate for Craftsman stuff?

Some craftsman things are nice, and some are junk that i have come to find out. It seems like the boyfriend is always breaking a screwdriver from them. I will buy something there, but somethings I can pass. I just bought a couple craftsman things for christmas. (Seat and gloves)
 

scbird94

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Re: Why The hate for Craftsman stuff?

I drive a 1998 Eddie Bauer Explorer, Rusty 197K beater.

My wife drives a 2009 BMW 5 series, so pretty that I'd bang it if it came with a ******.

My explorer has just about every option her Beemer has and does the exact same thing... Gets me where I need to go.

Her car just does it with more refinement and comfort.



I think of my Explorer as a RP Craftsman and her car as a Flank Drive Plus.

Same outcome at the end, only difference is comfort getting there.

Epic analogical observation lol. Fits it to a T.
 

Michael T

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Re: Why The hate for Craftsman stuff?

My father was an electrical mechanic at Commonwealth Edison for 37 years. During that time he accumulated a mixed bag of hand tools. When he passed away, I inherited his tools, adding them to my own. When I was growing up, my father always recommended Craftsman hand tools, so I followed his sage advice, purchasing Craftsman when I could, and K-Mart **** when I couldn't afford better (who would have ever thought that unholy union would occur!). My point is, I grew up learning a doctrine that stated Craftsman was a quality brand, but things have changed...drastically.

Recently, I worked on a project and used a 1/4" Craftsman ratchet...I had to hold the selector switch in the tighten position to make it properly engage so I could tighten a nut on a bolt. This week I had another project and grabbed a Craftsman 1/2" ratchet...same thing occurred, only this time, I couldn't finish the project with that tool. I found a 1/2" drive Snap-On ratchet, probably 50 years old, and it worked flawlessly. I think I have to finally admit I can no longer buy Craftsman tools and expect them to perform properly.

Sigh...........
 

buffalobill

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Re: Why The hate for Craftsman stuff?

the exact reason i have no problems shopping online or chasing down tool trucks for quality anymore. sears betrayed all loyal customers when they started getting cheap. I would LOVE for sears to start wanting to compete with other high end toolmakers again.
 

pipsters

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Re: Why The hate for Craftsman stuff?

Interesting, my 20 year old Craftsman impact sockets are all clearly stamped "Taiwan". +2 on HF's impact sockets. I wouldn't be surprised if the non-impact HF sockets are just as good as the current crop of Craftsman sockets but IDK.

The newer ones are USA made. They are stamped "GK" who made the older chrome sockets as well.

My 3/4" has been beat to **** but you can still read it, it's also stamped but surprisingly the laser etching is holding up better than the stamps.

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I own a *lot* of recently bought Craftsman stuff. My only beef so far is the flaking of the chrome on *some* of the raised panel wrenches and some of the sockets, which were easily warrantied. I actually called up Apex and they shipped me new sockets. So far nothing has broke on me. I recently used those rebranded Mayhew prybars as well, they are really really good.
 

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SMKS

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Re: Why The hate for Craftsman stuff?

Except the fact that SK was OUT OF BUSINESS for years.

This information is not correct.

SK filed for bankruptcy in late June 2010. Posts on it here.

After two months in bankruptcy court, SK was bought by Ideal. More info here.

Since August 2010, Ideal has been building a new factory and ramping up production.


None of us have any idea how the SK 2.0 will go

Well, it would actually be more correct to call the current company SK 6.0.

According to Alloy Artifacts and Wikipedia:

Early 1900s - 1962: Original company
1962: Purchased by Symington-Wayne
Late 1960s: Purchased by Dresser Industries
1985: Purchased by Facom
2005: Made independent when Stanley buys Facom
2010: Purchased out of bankruptcy by Ideal.
 
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AZ_Catskinner

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Re: Why The hate for Craftsman stuff?

I still approve of most of Craftsman's hand tools, ESPECIALLY the industrial line. Granted, the RP ratchets **** the big one anymore but the rest of the "standard" stuff is still excellent for the price.

I was more than happy to replace my Proto/Blackhawk combo wrench set with the Craftsman Industrials. 1/4" through 1-5/16" for $155 USA made? Sign me up!
 

kythri

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Re: Why The hate for Craftsman stuff?

The newer ones are USA made. They are stamped "GK" who made the older chrome sockets as well.

GK is a date code, not a manufacturer.

Danaher is the manufacturer.

I have some older stuff with a "V" or "VV" date code (pre-Danaher, I believe), as well as newer stuff that is G, G2, G2K, GK and likely a few other codes.
 
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FergusonTO35

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Re: Why The hate for Craftsman stuff?

My main beef with Craftsman is a personal one. Sears Auto Center was my first automotive job and it was a pretty sorry place to work, I won't bore you with the details. We had a very good Snap-On dealer that visited us and I bought lots of tools off him, I hoped that Sears would take notice that I was giving part of my meager earnings to their biggest rival. Actually, back then Sears Auto Center and the main store were practically separate companies and I don't think they could care less where I bought their tools.

Many of my fellow techs did use Craftsman on the job though. The tools held up in a functional sense but they sure looked ugly; the chrome quickly became worn and discolored and the grainy finish of other tools made them permanently dirty. The open ends of wrenches broke alot when doing alignments and the RP ratchet mechanisms felt like they had sand in them after some use. Several of my coworkers had Craftsman Industrial toolboxes, the original non-griplatch ones of the 90's. Those boxes held up quite well as I remember.

Speaking of open end wrenches: when doing an alignment you can't use the closed end of a wrench to loosen and adjust a tie rod end. You have to use an open end wrench or similar tool. This is where the better open ends really prove their worth, such as Snap-On FDP and Matco Opti-Torque. The alignment guys who used Craftsman RP wrenches broke them all the time, often they would go for the pipe wrench to loosen a tie rod and not even bother with a wrench. I used the Matco Opti-Torque wrenches alot for alignments and they worked great. Never broke one and they would loosen some really stubborn tie rod nuts.
 

Skin

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Re: Why The hate for Craftsman stuff?

GK is a date code, not a manufacturer.

Danaher is the manufacturer.

I have some older stuff with a "V" or "VV" date code (pre-Danaher, I believe), as well as newer stuff that is G, G2, G2K, GK and likely a few other codes.

The letter stampings are the manufacturer / facility, not a precise date code although a loose time frame of production can be established. Some things with certain letter stampings were only sold for a year or two while others were sold over a decade or more so you can see it wouldnt be possible for them to be date codes. For example sockets stamped G were available through the 90s, G1 were really only found around 99/00/01 while G2 have been available since about 01 on up. G2Ds are the most recent dual marked and have likewise been available for just the last few years.

A true date code would be what a manufacturer like Snap-On uses where they imprint a new shape on every tool manufacturered in a given year.

Here is a scan of the printout my Snap On dealer gave me. Its definately the most complete one I have ever seen.
Snap_on_date_chart.jpg
 
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pipsters

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Re: Why The hate for Craftsman stuff?

GK is a date code, not a manufacturer.

Danaher is the manufacturer.

I have some older stuff with a "V" or "VV" date code (pre-Danaher, I believe), as well as newer stuff that is G, G2, G2K, GK and likely a few other codes.

The way I look at it, it determines who it's made by. The reason I say that, is because wrenches are still stamped V^ and they've been stamped that since 1992 or so. Hard to argue V^ is a date code if it spans almost 20 years.

Same goes for those sockets, GK has been making sockets now for at least 4 years that I'm aware of. My first set in 2007 had GK sockets in the larger sizes as well as G2.

Something like the screwdrivers, which are stamped "WF" and then a date code like "P", "Y", "Z", or the brand new "AA" would be a date code.

I *believe* the "V" originated to show they were made of Vanadium steel, which was a much higher quality steel back in the day. These days CR-V and CR-MOLY are now the standard, so it doesn't mean as much.

Edit: Skin beat me to it.

Like I said above if Sears could just get Danaher to get their quality control together they'd have a winner. I'd also be interested in a "vintage" line with the old style chrome.

Food for thought, when the 1/2" raised panel ratchet was originally released in 1966 it cost $7, which is about $50 nowadays. People used to pay a LOT more for their tools.
 
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diesel research

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Re: Why The hate for Craftsman stuff?

I dont see why you would ever need to use an open end wrench under allot of torque, The only time you need to put allot of force on an open end wrench you could just use a flare wrench. I always break a bolt loose with a box end then turn it with the open end untill its loose enough that I can use my fingers.


Keep turning wrenches, you will eventually find out that a box end or flarenut won't always fit. Happens all the time with hydraulics. Might be stuck enough to require beating with a hammer, jacking against wrench with bottle jack, or even pulling the wrench with a vehicle/winch/crane...

Oops, someone sealed a fitting with red loctite and you can't torch in the area...
 

thetreshon

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Re: Why The hate for Craftsman stuff?

Oh, SK tools manufactures sockets in Sycamore, IL. I toured the plant recently. I've never had a bad SK tool and as long as it says USA on it, I'm more likely to buy an SK tool than any other because I work in Sycamore and my job depends on taxes.

Seriously, if only EVERY person would think like that for their own city/town.

It would be great if each town or city had a "Tour the City" day or something, that would open up factories/manufacturing faclities for a day so they could show visitors the hard work these people do that have kept the town employed with good paying jobs for several decades.

I think people might care more about where they spent their money if they knew who was making it...
 

kythri

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Re: Why The hate for Craftsman stuff?

If not a strict date code, then perhaps a "generation code"? It may have been a manufacturer code at one time, but I've got multiple Danaher-produced stuff with various codes. I'll have to go snag some pics, but as I said, I've got a lot of recent-manufacture-by-Danaher sockets that are G, G2, G2K and GK.

It seems odd that it would be a facility code - that would indicate production being shifted around a LOT.

Also, V is most definitely a manufacturer or date code, not a marking for vanadium, at least on Craftsman tools.
 

TWX

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Re: Why The hate for Craftsman stuff?

Seriously, if only EVERY person would think like that for their own city/town.

It would be great if each town or city had a "Tour the City" day or something, that would open up factories/manufacturing faclities for a day so they could show visitors the hard work these people do that have kept the town employed with good paying jobs for several decades.

I think people might care more about where they spent their money if they knew who was making it...

If origins were more prominent on the products it might help. For stuff made domestically, putting a city of origin might really help. Let the cheap imported stuff be simply "Made in Country"...
 

pipsters

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Re: Why The hate for Craftsman stuff?

Also, V is most definitely a manufacturer or date code, not a marking for vanadium, at least on Craftsman tools.

But several different companies made the V series.

V = Moore Drop Forge, ca. 1946 - 1967

V (continued) = Easco, ca. 1968 - 1986 perhaps as late as 1991 as NOS

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=84807

They also talk about V being "Vanadium" for when Sears had several different tiers of tools. Later the Vanadium was shortened to just "V".
 
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GoBlue

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Re: Why The hate for Craftsman stuff?

This information is not correct.

SK filed for bankruptcy in late June 2010. Posts on it here.

After two months in bankruptcy court, SK was bought by Ideal. More info here.

Since August 2010, Ideal has been building a new factory and ramping up production.




Well, it would actually be more correct to call the current company SK 6.0.

According to Alloy Artifacts and Wikipedia:

Early 1900s - 1962: Original company
1962: Purchased by Symington-Wayne
Late 1960s: Purchased by Dresser Industries
1985: Purchased by Facom
2005: Made independent when Stanley buys Facom
2010: Purchased out of bankruptcy by Ideal.

You are correct sir. I thought they were gone longer than that due to the fact that everyone around here stopped carrying them. I really did like SK tools...im certianly no hater.:beer:
 
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jk47

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Re: Why The hate for Craftsman stuff?

Bottom line... Craftsman is a shadow of it's former self, but they still produce some great stuff...

Actually many modern day tool companies are in the same boat.
 

ibedayank

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Re: Why The hate for Craftsman stuff?

I do not hate craftsman tools.... most of what I have is craftsman pruchased 15 years or so ago or bought USED since. What gets me is what they have done to the name craftsman by having the name stamped/printen on imported **** and i mean ****

tools used to be built to a certian level of quality now its come to be built to a certian price level
and thats for more companies then just Craftsman
 

BFBOB

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Re: Why The hate for Craftsman stuff?

My wife, with her tiny hands, likes the X-beam wrenches. Easier to apply the necessary force without resorting to gloves, shop rag, etc.
 

AZ_Catskinner

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Re: Why The hate for Craftsman stuff?

tools used to be built to a certian level of quality now its come to be built to a certian price level
and thats for more companies then just Craftsman

THIS!!! Craftsmanship (no pun intended) and quality have declined across the board in recent years. I know that there's many factors involved (declining number of skilled tradesmen, increased overhead, idiotic environmental regulations and corporate conglomeration to name a few), but I firmly believe that it's going to eventually sink some companies.
 

bhclark

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Re: Why The hate for Craftsman stuff?

idiotic environmental regulations

By all means, let's just go back to letting corporations dump the lead and other toxins directly into the ground......I'll let you taste test my well water.
 

AZ_Catskinner

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Re: Why The hate for Craftsman stuff?

By all means, let's just go back to letting corporations dump the lead and other toxins directly into the ground......I'll let you taste test my well water.

There's a difference between common sense and going overboard. Unfortunately, many of our regulations have been developed from hysteria, and not logic. Not dumping waste chemicals into rivers? Good idea. Requiring an environmental impact study for a bouncy castle at a kids' birthday party (La Jolla, CA)? Idiotic.

Environmental regulations have gone so far overboard that simple processes, like chrome plating become a major headache. "Improved" and "greener" processes don't seem to work as well. ISO 14001 environmental compliance isn't even enough for some agencies - they just make the rules stricter to ensure that they can get more money out of the manufacturers.
 

blarf

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Re: Why The hate for Craftsman stuff?

There's a difference between common sense and going overboard. Unfortunately, many of our regulations have been developed from hysteria, and not logic. Not dumping waste chemicals into rivers? Good idea. Requiring an environmental impact study for a bouncy castle at a kids' birthday party (La Jolla, CA)? Idiotic.

Environmental regulations have gone so far overboard that simple processes, like chrome plating become a major headache. "Improved" and "greener" processes don't seem to work as well. ISO 14001 environmental compliance isn't even enough for some agencies - they just make the rules stricter to ensure that they can get more money out of the manufacturers.

Yeah, well, call me when SnapOn wants to build a bouncy castle in La Jolla.

As for chrome plating, Wikipedia lists hydroflouric acid as one of the chemicals commonly used in chrome plating. You know, the stuff that will etch glass... that will break your bones without breaking your skin. That hydroflouric acid. And hexavalent chromium? Well, you remember Erin Brockovich, no? Let's not forget the use of lead, and the resulting lead chromates.

Wikipedia has this to say:

Due to containing both lead and hexavalent chromium, lead(II) chromate is profoundly toxic.
Lead(II) chromate is a poison, and can be fatal if swallowed or inhaled.

Regulations get tighter and tighter as fewer and fewer people want to live in the next Love Canal.
 

AZ_Catskinner

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Re: Why The hate for Craftsman stuff?

Oh good lord. There are processes in place for containing these solutions. Nobody is going to go toss them in the river, except for our third world friends who simply don't care.

If the chroming process were really that bad, then all European tools would be black oxide or some other finish, as the EU is pretty damned strict about such risks.

Why don't we just ship all manufacturing to China, so that we can be safe from everything?
 

kythri

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Re: Why The hate for Craftsman stuff?

Well, you remember Erin Brockovich, no?

You mean the trashy zero-education fraudster who gets by on her bust, not her brains, and her fraudulent lawsuit based on fraudulent evidence and no actual scientific proof that what was going on in Hinkley caused anything?

The same Erin Brockovich who made more money off of the alleged "scandal" than most of her victims, I mean, the alleged victims (the law firm took $133 million of the $333 million settlement)? The one who got $2 million while the average plaintiff got $300K? The one who got $2 million while one plaintiffs who had to undergo multiple tumor removal surgeries got $80K?

I remember her!
 
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kythri

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Re: Why The hate for Craftsman stuff?

Why don't we just ship all manufacturing to China, so that we can be safe from everything?

That's what seems to be some folks agenda. Over-regulation and the nanny-state protecting us from ourselves, because we peons apparently can't think for ourselves, which is why we need Big Government to tell us all the things we can't do.
 

WR250F

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Re: Why The hate for Craftsman stuff?

I don't hate Craftsman, but I do lament the deterioration in quality of some of their offerings.

Case in point, lately I have purchased 3 ratchets from Sears. Two long flex head versions in 1/2 and 3/8 drive and one "Premium" version in 3/8.

The 1/2 flex and Premium 3/8 are both simply flawless. They feel good when using them and I have no doubt they will have a place in my stable for years to come.

The 3/8 drive flex was simply a POS any way you look at it. It would work great in one direction, but the selector switch would float all over the place in the other, usually slipping to center and free wheeling.

I thought maybe it was just the one I got, luck of the draw (no mfr is perfect all the time), so I returned to Sears to trade it for another. I went thru 6 different ratchets on the rack, and all were the same.

I went to two other Sears stores in the area thinking maybe that store just got a bad batch. All the 3/8 flex ratchets I looked at from any of the three stores was the same, clearly a POS.

I'm not pissed about Craftsman, but I am shocked, saddened and just feel screwed because I grew up with Sears being a household name, offering stuff you could count on being of decent quality. Maybe never the best available or suitable for the Queen, but, good enough to make our family feel like we got what we paid for.

Nowadays, it's a **** shoot at best. Nothing worse than coming to realize a symbol of American pride (to some) has chosen to go the way of many companies and serve the interest of share-holders instead of customers.

What's worse is the shareholders just don't get it. Selling **** products will only lead to diminished profits and cause your customers to go to a competitor. They seem to have lost sight of the fact that customers still want value for their money.

Take a look at HF. Five years ago everything in the store was ****. Now, maybe just 1/2-3/4 of it is ****, but, they're headed in the right direction.

Sears two biggest money makers are Kenmore and Craftsman. Sears has never been in the manufacturing business, so, their products were always outsourced.

Now, with the advent of the internet, and changing business models, brick and mortar stores are archaic in any profit model.

Sears is making a hard push to get away from brick and mortar retail. Why do you thing they offer discounts for online only purchases, and offer in store pickup ? To get people conditioned to the idea of no more retail environment.

Sears is marketing the hell out of the Kenmore and Craftsman brands because of the recognition. That's profitable compared to paying overhead like mall space, insurance, salary and training for retail floor employees.

This isn't a total surprise, with regulations, taxes, liability insurance costs etc. going thru the roof they have to do something to remain profitable.

The real question is how long will it take the customer base Sears has grown for generations to come to the realization that the Sears we once knew is no more.

So, I'm not a Cman hater, I just hate to see something many people relied upon being forced into dealing with the market inundated by foreign (chicom and worse) mfrs who don't have a clue about what Americans perceive as value.

HF is starting to 'get it', truck brand and industrial tool companies have always known if you make a POS, you'll (permanently) lose customers.

So, that's one main reason for the quality difference between the truck/industrial brands and what's left of Sears. It's deliver or die in the marketplace.

Sears just chose to compete with the bottom feeders of the world. As a result, they are desperate to do anything to survive. Using a cheapo grade product to milk the brand for all it's worth is one way of remaining profitable as long as possible.

The sad truth is most customers could give a damn where a tool is made and wouldn't know a quality tool if you beat them over the head with it. Those customers are the ones Sears is exploiting during the transition they are now in.

Sears will either go online order only, with orders picked up from an order desk in some whse setting, get sold off, or go bankrupt.

The mgmt already knows this, the investors could care less and all the poor saps that made the Craftsman and Kenmore brands so popular (and marketable) with their loyalty over the years are now considered expendable.

That would be me and you.

If you wonder how things got this way, take a look at US foreign trade agreements and the sleazy side of global politics. In years past politicians would screw your dog, and maybe your wife, but lacked nerve to simply screw all of us at once.

Now they have pockets lined with foreign money and balls as big as fruit jars. Sears is no different than the rest of us in the fact they are trying every way they can to survive.

What they don't realize is Americans still give a damn and would support any company that does their absolute best to deliver quality with integrity and good ethics.

Sears could be saved, and turn into a shining example of how the American standard is still the benchmark. They have chosen to listen to too many suits and bean counters instead of their customer base.

So, I say let them die if they must, it's their own doing for lacking the balls to stand for something (anything ?) that resembles integrity.

They are to me, no different now than HF, they just sell furniture, clothes and other ****.

Just like HF, if you know what you're after, you can still find a gem or two that is a value.

The truck and industrial brands are next, just hide and watch.

In 10 years, what we call **** will be cream of the crop and tools will be largely dispensable. The few holdouts offering quality will be so damned expensive, they have to go off shore to mfr to keep costs within any kind of reason.

Make no mistake, you and me are responsible for all of this for letting the politicians get away with this ********.

Craftsman isn't bad, it's just a glaring example of how we've taken some things for granted and in the end been worse off for doing so.

I'm not a Craftsman hater, it's just a real sore point for me (and others) to know we let things get all F'ed up.

US made is great, but unless manufacturing comes back to this country, we might as well get used to the decline in the quality of what our dollar will buy.

Sears and Craftsman is just a common example that we can all associate with and see the effect of all of this up close and personal. Some of us handle the bad news better than others and vote with our dollars.

I don't hate Craftsman, I hate how F'ed up things are in general, Craftsman just gets to be the poster child for me, as I buy a tool once in a while and have been in the habit of getting good value from Sears all my life.

It's not totally gone, just harder to find.

I'm lazy, so any extra effort on my part, with sometimes inferior offerings at premium prices just pisses me off.
 
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pipsters

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Re: Why The hate for Craftsman stuff?

Now, with the advent of the internet, and changing business models, brick and mortar stores are archaic in any profit model.

Sears is making a hard push to get away from brick and mortar retail. Why do you thing they offer discounts for online only purchases, and offer in store pickup ? To get people conditioned to the idea of no more retail environment.

Sears is marketing the hell out of the Kenmore and Craftsman brands because of the recognition. That's profitable compared to paying overhead like mall space, insurance, salary and training for retail floor employees.

This isn't a total surprise, with regulations, taxes, liability insurance costs etc. going thru the roof they have to do something to remain profitable.

The real question is how long will it take the customer base Sears has grown for generations to come to the realization that the Sears we once knew is no more..

You do know that Sears was founded on the mail order catalog, right? Because by what you are saying you seem to think they have always been a brick and mortar store.
 

bhclark

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Re: Why The hate for Craftsman stuff?

There's a difference between common sense and going overboard. Unfortunately, many of our regulations have been developed from hysteria, and not logic. Not dumping waste chemicals into rivers? Good idea. Requiring an environmental impact study for a bouncy castle at a kids' birthday party (La Jolla, CA)? Idiotic.

Environmental regulations have gone so far overboard that simple processes, like chrome plating become a major headache. "Improved" and "greener" processes don't seem to work as well. ISO 14001 environmental compliance isn't even enough for some agencies - they just make the rules stricter to ensure that they can get more money out of the manufacturers.

Agreed 100% I don't live in Caliphoney, so I'm only vaguely familiar with the craziness that goes on out there. That is almost like a different country now.

I do understand the conundrum of everyone lamenting the loss of manufacturing in America, while at the same time saying "Not in my backyard".
Many of those "middle class" jobs from the '50s and '60s that have gone overseas were filthy, dirty, asbestos contaminated, poorly regulated, dangerous jobs. Many weren't, but when the dirty, dangerous job went overseas, the rest of the jobs in that plant went with them.

Everyone LOVES Steve Jobs and Apple.....how many people could Apple employ if they moved all production to USA? They've admitted that it's not the labor costs, it's the taxes and regulation.

China is getting smart and cracking down on environmental regulations as well. MAYBE, when that happens to the extent it has here, some of those jobs can come back. Their "middle class" won't work for peanuts forever. Labor costs are going up there as well.

I WANT manufacturing here, BUT, you have to find that magic balance that allows production to be affordable with the regulations and labor affordable while still finding enough people willing to do the jobs at that rate.

The first step is to reintroduce tariffs to make the cheap imported goods more expensive and good, old American Iron more competitive.
 

AZ_Catskinner

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Re: Why The hate for Craftsman stuff?

Many of those "middle class" jobs from the '50s and '60s that have gone overseas were filthy, dirty, asbestos contaminated, poorly regulated, dangerous jobs. Many weren't, but when the dirty, dangerous job went overseas, the rest of the jobs in that plant went with them.

Even those jobs weren't so bad - I actually miss working in the smelter. Dirty, nasty, dangerous jobs are usually considerably more fun than the cleaner ones.
 

Coach James

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Re: Why The hate for Craftsman stuff?

.....The sad truth is most customers could give a damn where a tool is made and wouldn't know a quality tool if you beat them over the head with it.


What they don't realize is Americans still give a damn and would support any company that does their absolute best to deliver quality with integrity and good ethics...../QUOTE]

Which one is it?

Which shareholders do you refer to as anyone with an IRA, annuity or pension is most likely a shareholder of Sears.

When you say pockets lined with foreign money, do you mean our representatives are taking bribes?

I want Sears to survive and I actually still buy Craftsman USA made stuff, but foreign trade agreements, American politicians pockets lined with foreign money, etc are not to blame for Sears choosing to buy off shore production.

My cousin is plant manager for a plant that makes drill bits. he tells me that they are down to 7 guys working at the plant as it became more automated. Their customers began buying more and more from overseas as it was cheaper to do so. There were no screaming shareholders or pockets of foreign money.

My cousin said the causes were 1) wage differences 2) cost of environmental compliance 3) Cost of documenting environmental compliance. He said it took many man hours to do all the documentation 4) lower efficiency due to union job description agreements and a few other things. None was the single cause but together they made it more cost effective to send production to taiwan and China.

My cousin isn't an anti-union type either as he was a member of the steel workers union for years before the mills around Pittsburgh closed.

Coach
 

AZ_Catskinner

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Re: Why The hate for Craftsman stuff?

[

My cousin said the causes were 1) wage differences 2) cost of environmental compliance 3) Cost of documenting environmental compliance. He said it took many man hours to do all the documentation 4) lower efficiency due to union job description agreements and a few other things. None was the single cause but together they made it more cost effective to send production to taiwan and China.


Coach

The amount of time it takes to do the environmental compliance stuff is truly insane. It only took 30 years and change to get our "newest" mine permitted, and this was a past producing property in a very active copper corridor.
 

WRX/Z28

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I've yet to break an RP ratchet in my 20+ years of using them, new style included. I've seen one 1/4 drive that a coworker had that slipped. I simply pulled it apart and hit it with WD40. Problem solved

I don't follow the ***** over fine tooth ratchets. 99% of the time, they serve no function. Occaisionally you may need a shorter arc, but really, how often does it really come up? When I can't swing a ratchet, I grab my air ratchet, problem solved.

My only qualm with RP's is the line it leaves in my hand when applying serious torque. I purchased this ratchet http://www.craftsman.com/shc/s/p_10...sName=Ratchets&prdNo=1&blockNo=1&blockType=L1 Problem solved.

I took that ratchet to work since I also own a bunch of Snap on's at home, and when my gf changed her own oil, she complained that her fav ratchet was missing, still avoided my Snap on's, and grabbed a wright soft grip instead. Crazy huh?

I too wish Craftsman would make as much as possible in the USA, that being said, their stuff is clearly a cut above other chinese tools, and if it fails, it's the simplest to warranty out. I've yet to be given any grief at sears, even when I brought in pliers that simply wore out the rubber grips (the pliers were fine). They were swapped with no hassle.
 
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AZ_Catskinner

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I don't follow the ***** over fine tooth ratchets. 99% of the time, they serve no function. Occaisionally you may need a shorter arc, but really, how often does it really come up? When I can't swing a ratchet, I grab my air ratchet, problem solved.

Nice to know I'm not alone! The only fine tooth ratchet I've ever owned that I even like is a cheap ¼" drive. I do like it for underdash and other tight areas.
 

blarf

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Re: Why The hate for Craftsman stuff?

Everyone LOVES Steve Jobs and Apple.....how many people could Apple employ if they moved all production to USA? They've admitted that it's not the labor costs, it's the taxes and regulation.

Uh? Citation please.

Financial Times says that they're moving away from Taiwan, Shanghai, and Suzhou expressly because of labor costs. Hell, Danaher did the same ****... moving from MA to TX and AR where they could pay near minimum wage. I know that's been covered on Garage Journal before, but just in case...

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/2429f498-82fd-11df-8b15-00144feabdc0.html

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...e/modern-christmas-story-danaher-tool-125232/
 

bhclark

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OHIO
Re: Why The hate for Craftsman stuff?

Uh? Citation please.

Financial Times says that they're moving away from Taiwan, Shanghai, and Suzhou expressly because of labor costs. Hell, Danaher did the same ****... moving from MA to TX and AR where they could pay near minimum wage. I know that's been covered on Garage Journal before, but just in case...

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/2429f498-82fd-11df-8b15-00144feabdc0.html

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...e/modern-christmas-story-danaher-tool-125232/

I can't find an article, I saw it in an interview.

This article, among others, mentions that total "final assembly" costs are only "a few dollars". Foxconn's labor costs are up to about $1 per hour. Figure assembly at $25/hr here and 2 hours costs $48 more.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/08/apple-ipod-innovation-economy_n_873336.html

Would Apple customers pay $250 for an ipod instead of $200? Sure...it's not an issue for their average customer who will pay $1400 for a $400 laptop.

I personally will not own an Apple product.
 
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