Wiha made in CHINA!??

[lennoxlennox]

And with you example, like the FTC in the us the German fair trade commission will sue for unfair trade practice. That happen in 1995.

To quote 1 case whose detail we know nothing about so you can give the impression there is a higher standard is silly and meaningless.


Certainly the prevailing law is the 10% law. Any company can go before a court and demonstrate that they fulfill the requirements of the law.

This 1 case you state is a one off and most likely had other issues because if you are adhering to the law you can't be charged under some other law.

And you can bet if there were tighter restrictions, this would have been highlighted by the german manufacturers association - BUT THEY DIDN'T STATE THIS - THEY ARE FIGHTING TOUGHER REQUIREMENTS.


So all this is, is your attempt to somehow demonstrate tougher requirements - you are in denial.

 

[dandan111]

Gets harder every year. Almost everything is china ****. Maybe the china **** labeled as made in Germany or USA makes us feel a bit better about it? I buy pretty much used any more.

 

[shoturtle]

Also I have brought german brands, with the designed in Germany. That is out there as well.

 

[dandan111]

Maybe assembled in the USA is good enough. Damn big business..

 

[lennoxlennox]

Anyway shoturtle, i like your passion and don't mean to bag on you (too much... lol) but this isn't your standards... it's theirs... it's just pathetic

And I believe this is doing a huge disservice to the many german companies that make good products

Ultimately their product quality and image will suffer

 

[shoturtle]

To quote 1 case whose detail we know nothing about so you can give the impression there is a higher standard is silly and meaningless.


Certainly the prevailing law is the 10% law. Any company can go before a court and demonstrate that they fulfill the requirements of the law.

This 1 case you state is a one off and most likely had other issues because if you are adhering to the law you can't be charged under some other law.

And you can bet if there were tighter restrictions, this would have been highlighted by the german manufacturers association - BUT THEY DIDN'T STATE THIS - THEY ARE FIGHTING TOUGHER REQUIREMENTS.


So all this is, is your attempt to somehow demonstrate tougher requirements - you are in denial.

Nope, I know when I buy a us product or a German product. Just know that both country have similar regs that can be side step. And often are.

I can tell you for sure the majority of eu tools are made with internationally sources steel. And a fair amount of us tools are as well. And I accept that. As steel is traded like most commodities.

 

[lennoxlennox]

Nope, I know when I buy a us product or a German product. Just know that both country have similar regs that can be side step.

Keep saying that over and over and you might believe it.


Clearly they don't.


Denial much?

 

[shoturtle]

Anyway shoturtle, i like your passion and don't mean to bag on you (too much... lol) but this isn't your standards... it's theirs... it's just pathetic

And I believe this is doing a huge disservice to the many german companies that make good products

Ultimately their product quality and image will suffer

It is a huge disservice when one jumps on a 3rd party tag, and blow it out of proportion, then said us companies do not do what you accuse the wiha of doing. Everyone source forge stock from all over the world. That is why steel is traded as a commodity. And that has been my point. All these made in the USA or eu or German is all the same. Companies buy their stock world wide, and china is one of the biggest steel producers.

 

[zer0cell]

For those of you who care, Knipex has just confirmed that all of their primary products are made 100% in germany.

 

[lennoxlennox]

It is a huge disservice when one jumps on a 3rd party tag, and blow it out of proportion,

agreed... but i think the label of "made in china" warrants asking the question for sure... it could be a mistake but who knows?


and i don't think an email from wiha (usa i presume) has really answered the question.


i think the OP needs to find out why in Croatia this label was applied.

 

[shoturtle]

No it is only 10% as they finish them in Germany, lol

 

[zer0cell]

haha oh geez.... i gotta stop watching this thread... i have to go work...

 

[shoturtle]

agreed... but i think the label of "made in china" warrants asking the question for sure... it could be a mistake but who knows?


and i don't think an email from wiha (usa i presume) has really answered the question.

You realized I has stated I have always email wiha about their products before I buy them. And it is to wiha Germany 90% of the time. And they have alway told me where they are made, and when something is made. Like I have stated, wiha confirm that my tool rolls and precision driver rack were made in china, my newest vde tools were made in switzerland and my torx plus were made in Germany bits are wiha and the socket portion Hayco.

And I passed on some of the none vde plier as they were made in Vietnam.

I have been emailing them for years in Germany.

 

[shoturtle]

haha oh geez.... i gotta stop watching this thread... i have to go work...

Lol, if you look at content, majority of the steel the German forges use is imported. Just injection some levelity to a over reaction to a mystery 3rd party thread.

 

[shoturtle]

No one is arguing that steel is made all over the world. But, your examples where a wrench, ratchet or other tool is made in the USA with foreign steel and marked "made in the USA" is just plain wrong. In that case, it would have to be marked "made in the USA with foreign materials" or something similar.

I suspect now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing and trying to get the last word.

I am just saying every company does it, source material world wide. And if you take the FTC rules. There is hardly anything that are made in the USA, cand be stamped made in the USA. There are rules the put down, then there is the reality.

I would not be surprise with my latest order of proto toole that they are not 70% oversea steel by content. But they are finish in the US forges.

 

[Notwerk]

I don't claim to know much about German law, but I can say that tools made here with foreign steel take a "Made in the USA with global components" stamp. That wording has replaced a lot of the old "Made in USA" stamps because a lot of raw material is now imported. Examples are various Stanley tools, the Irwin pliers that were made here shortly before they went overseas, etc.

A tool can't be simply "finished" here and take a "Made in the USA" logo. Stanley has tried that, and they got taken to task by the FTC. I'm sure some companies have tried to get away with it, and some probably do. Like I said, Stanley tried, got caught, got sued, and got punished. You don't see "Made in the USA" on anything they make anymore because they now cover themselves with the "global components" wording. Whether some might get away with it is another thing, but the law is clear: "Made in the USA" means made in the USA.

 

[Zrexxer]

So then providing the actual quality is equivalent, and the product being considered is non-US-made, you would naturally be rooting for China over Germany, as China is your second largest trading partner (after Canada), importing more than twice as much US product as Germany?

What the hell does that even mean?

 

[shoturtle]

But I thing what stanley did was chrome the forge tool in the us, the tool a
was actually forged overseas. What allot of companies do now which is legal. Is buy raw stock and forge/finish the tool in the US. Which you can stamp made in the USA. There is allot of gray and undefined areas.

And Irwin was forging all the parts for the vice grip. Shipping it to the us and putting it together. So companies can do that but it must be asked assembled in the USA not made.

 

[lennoxlennox]

But I thing what stanley did was chrome the forge tool in the us, the tool a
was actually forged overseas. What allot of companies do now which is legal. Is buy raw stock and forge/finish the tool in the US. Which you can stamp made in the USA. There is allot of gray and undefined areas.

I suspect now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing and trying to get the last word.

This

 

[shoturtle]

I just do not type a page and a half of anti German tool, and claim the venture of made in the us tool. I just go with the point that nothing is solely made where they said it is made. As raw stock is source globally.

 

[Notwerk]

For what it's worth, I think the Wiha statement answered my question: That sticker shouldn't be there. Someone else added it. I'd say it's erroneous and all this other discussion is futile.

But if you want an interesting read, see this article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/13/world/europe/13prato.html?pagewanted=all

It's a complex world out there...

 

[lennoxlennox]

I just do not type a page and a half of anti German tool, and claim the venture of made in the us tool. I just go with the point that nothing is solely made where they said it is made. As raw stock is source globally.

I suspect now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing and trying to get the last word.

This

 

[shoturtle]

Agree +1 to notwerk

 

[shoturtle]

Notwerk, should like the us in la and NYC. Illegal sweat shop works.

 

[bw77]

I don't claim to know much about German law, but I can say that tools made here with foreign steel take a "Made in the USA with global components" stamp. That wording has replaced a lot of the old "Made in USA" stamps because a lot of raw material is now imported. Examples are various Stanley tools, the Irwin pliers that were made here shortly before they went overseas, etc.

Advertising is not covered by this rule. A product assembled in the USA
from global components can be advertised on the Internet as "Made in
USA". But it cannot be labeled as such.

 

[shoturtle]

Again, here's another excerpt from an FTC document that specifically mentions tools with imported steel. Using foreign steel can very easily violate the "all or virtually all" rule. I know you want to keep arguing this point, but you have provided no evidence other than spouting your opinion.

Again, for the tenth time - here is the link providing the correct info on labeling an item "made in the USA" from the Federal Trade Commission, which regulates USA made claims.
http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus03-complying-made-usa-standard

It is all how you read it. Snap on ratchet is over 100 dollars, and the raw steel is not even worth close to that.

Are raw materials included in the evaluation of whether a product is "all or virtually all" made in the U.S.?

It depends on how much of the product’s cost the raw materials make up and how far removed from the finished product they are.

Example: If the gold in a gold ring is imported, an unqualified Made in USA claim for the ring is deceptive. That’s because of the significant value the gold is likely to represent relative to the finished product, and because the gold — an integral component — is only one step back from the finished article. By contrast, consider the plastic in the plastic case of a clock radio otherwise made in the U.S. of U.S.-made components. If the plastic case was made from imported petroleum, a Made in USA claim is likely to be appropriate because the petroleum is far enough removed from the finished product, and is an insignificant part of it as well.

 

[nanofrog]

Snap on, matco and other tool makers buy both us and oversea steel. They change the material into a tool. But the steel is still from overseas.

Listing content origin for the materials is only required for the following classifications of goods according to the Bureau of Consumer Protection: automobiles, wool, textiles, and furs.

Specifically to raw materials, here's what they have to say:

Are raw materials included in the evaluation of whether a product is "all or virtually all" made in the U.S.?

It depends on how much of the product’s cost the raw materials make up and how far removed from the finished product they are.

Example: If the gold in a gold ring is imported, an unqualified Made in USA claim for the ring is deceptive. That’s because of the significant value the gold is likely to represent relative to the finished product, and because the gold — an integral component — is only one step back from the finished article. By contrast, consider the plastic in the plastic case of a clock radio otherwise made in the U.S. of U.S.-made components. If the plastic case was made from imported petroleum, a Made in USA claim is likely to be appropriate because the petroleum is far enough removed from the finished product, and is an insignificant part of it as well.

So in the case of a tool maker here in the US, the cost of the iron ore or steel used to make say a ratchet wouldn't be where most of the funds went, and would also be far enough removed from the finished product anyway.

To further this example, hot rolled plate steel listed for $858 per tonne (aka metric ton = 2240 US lbs) as of Apr. 2012. Which works out to ~$0.38 per US lb. Assuming 5 lbs of steel was used to make the ratchet, then they'd have under $2 in the steel used to make it.

Assuming that ratchet is a Snap-On that goes for say $150 new, the steel cost is a bit over 1.3% of the MSRP. Not much at all. The rest would be the costs derived in the US plant they made it.

I suspect similar laws exist regarding this in other nations as well.

agreed... but i think the label of "made in china" warrants asking the question for sure... it could be a mistake but who knows?

If Germany allows for similar conditions as here in the US, then they can accurately claim the screwdriver is 100% German manufactured by their legal standards, despite if the materials used in manufacturing were shipped in from elsewhere or not.

 

[shoturtle]

Again, the rule is "all or virtually all." Steel is likely significant enough in a ratchet to violate that rule. The example you quoted above uses the cheap plastic in a radio. And, the raw steel in a ratchet is very, very close to the finished product, it's not very far down the line in production.

Now, if you wanted to argue using imported steel for a tiny part of the ratchet, a pawl or spring or something, you can make a case. But to say the handle of a ratchet wouldn't violate the "all or virtually all" rule doesn't make sense.

It's ok to say you're wrong. You don't have to keep trying.

Like I said it depends on how you read it. majority of anything plastic is made of petro form the middle east. But there is allot of plastic stamped made in the US. Snap ware and couple of other company comes to mind. The plastic is over 90% offer shored. But they can say made in the USA.

You all are saying the FTC is fixed in stone, it is base on how you arguer it. And the companies that stamp made in the USA on them, pretty much have argued and won the right to post made in the USA on a plastic product made of overseas sourced product.

 

[nanofrog]

Steel to a finished ratchet is very close, it's not far away at all.

I wouldn't think so, given the number and extent of the various processes (raw steel was stamped multiple times, machined, hardened, finished <deburring & chroming>, and assembled with it's guts, that also took quite a bit of processing to realize their final forms).

Of course a lot of government thinking/rationale makes little sense to me anyway...

Like I said it depends on how you read it. majority of anything plastic is made of petro form the middle east. But there is allot of plastic stamped made in the US. Snap ware and couple of other company comes to mind. The plastic is over 90% offer shored. But they can say made in the USA.

You all are saying the FTC is fixed in stone, it is base on how you arguer it. And the companies that stamp made in the USA on them, pretty much have argued and won the right to post made in the USA on a plastic product made of overseas sourced product.

In the case of oil made into plastic, that ends up qualifying as "far enough removed", as first the oil must be processed into the monomer, then the monomer processed into plastic. Once the plastic pellets are made, then it can be put through an injection mold to form it into it's final shape.

Quite a bit of a change from a black liquid to hard plastic shape, such as the handle of a screwdriver.

As per how we argue it, it really doesn't matter from a legal stand point. What the gov regs say is all the manufacturers have to comply with, and that's all they care about.

They paid lobbyists a nice sum to get those loopholes, so they're definitely going to take advantage of them.

 

[CanUK]

So if a factory located on US soil (but owned by a company in China) were to employ a large contingent of immigrant workers, use solely foreign-made machinery in the production process, and use raw base materials sourced overseas (although we'll assume they represent a small percentage of the final value of the product), it could still be called "Made in the USA" although they're effectively just paying rent there?

 

[shoturtle]

that they do, and for all the lobbying money, all the regs are so loosely frame for different interpretation. Honestly what defines virtual.

 

[lennoxlennox]

So if a factory located on US soil (but owned by a company in China) were to employ a large contingent of immigrant workers, use solely foreign-made machinery in the production process, and use raw base materials sourced overseas (although we'll assume they represent a small percentage of the final value of the product), it could still be called "Made in the USA" although they're effectively just paying rent there?

oh give me a f'ing break.... you've done nothing but quote conspiracy theories and now you want to tout the most extreme example to make a point.... ffs

 

[lennoxlennox]

In the case of oil made into plastic, that ends up qualifying as "far enough removed", as first the oil must be processed into the monomer, then the monomer processed into plastic. Once the plastic pellets are made, then it can be put through an injection mold to form it into it's final shape.

Quite a bit of a change from a black liquid to hard plastic shape, such as the handle of a screwdriver.

As per how we argue it, it really doesn't matter from a legal stand point. What the gov regs say is all the manufacturers have to comply with, and that's all they care about.

They paid lobbyists a nice sum to get those loopholes, so they're definitely going to take advantage of them.

Exactly.

We have petroleum feedstock in this country, from the US, Canada and offshore.

but turning crude into plastics happens here as does this turning of raw plastic pellets into a manufactured product to something that has made in the USA stamped on it to comply with the FTC.


All shoturtle continues to do, is to equate a "raw materials" argument to the blatant deception of 10% of what the germans do as the same.

IT IS NOT


Clearly he wants to make it the same.

When you have the german manufacturers own material stating they can take a completely finished product like a steel vat and apply some finishing treatments to it


That is so far removed on what flies here


Sorry shoturtle... we have pretty exacting standards here - germany has lax ones

The made in USA means something - the made in Germany doesn't


Keep arguing - your opinion and "willing" to change or distort the facts is no different than what the german manufacturers do

 

[shoturtle]

Bull on the US exacting standards. It all can be argues in ftc court and it often is. Sorry to say as an American, we are just as bad as everyone else.

And that was part of my point. I have said that majority of the steel in the EU is imported, so is majority of the steel coming to the US now. Federal building use chinese and asian steel as well in their superstructure. As long as it is US forge finish the fabrication to get the contract.

 

[lennoxlennox]

Bull on the US exacting standards. It all can be argues in ftc court and it often is. Sorry to say as an American, we are just as bad as everyone else.

dude... sorry to say, you can't see how blinded you are


this doesn't even warrant a response... i feel bad to say anymore

 

[nanofrog]

So if a factory located on US soil (but owned by a company in China) were to employ a large contingent of immigrant workers, use solely foreign-made machinery in the production process, and use raw base materials sourced overseas (although we'll assume they represent a small percentage of the final value of the product), it could still be called "Made in the USA" although they're effectively just paying rent there?

I realize this is an extreme instance, but unfortunately, the answer would Yes.

Your example actually reminds me of a Kia plant here in the US (saw it on a program on History Channel IIRC), that's using a small US labor pool with a lot of Korean made robotics (had Hyundai big as day on them).

But apparently they do find a way to get enough of the materials/content from the US as well as assemble them here, so they do qualify as US made vehicles.

Not sure, but I suspect they count every single nut, bolt, and screw separately, while things like engines and transmissions for example, are counted as 1 assembly rather than all of it's constituent components used to create it.

 

[shoturtle]

you are touting the virtue of the us standard, and they flex in the wind as well. And the US Govt does exactly the same as everyone else they are all open to how you want to read them and can argue them in court.

 

[lennoxlennox]

you are touting the virtue of the us standard, and the flex in the wind as well. And the US Govt does exactly the same as everyone else they are all open to how you want to read them and can argue them in court.

ok... last time...otherwise i'm going to feel really bad

shoturtle, show me anywhere the following standard as quoted by the german manufacturers would be acceptable by the FTC.

Specifically...

"A company produces tanks made of stainless steel. Because
of a special chemical and mechanical surface treatment they
are suitable for the storage of ultrapure gases.

The semi-finished
tanks are supplied from abroad; the surface treatment
is carried out in Germany.

The final product may be designated as “Made in Germany”
if it is the surface treatment that is crucial to the
quality of the product."

 

[shoturtle]

ok... last time...otherwise i'm going to feel really bad

shoturtle, show me anywhere the following standard as quoted by the german manufacturers would be acceptable by the FTC.

Specifically...

"A company produces tanks made of stainless steel. Because
of a special chemical and mechanical surface treatment they
are suitable for the storage of ultrapure gases.

The semi-finished
tanks are supplied from abroad; the surface treatment
is carried out in Germany.

The final product may be designated as “Made in Germany”
if it is the surface treatment that is crucial to the
quality of the product."

my thing show me the german reg that says 10% that you have been touting. I and a couple of member have looked but can not seem to find it. I can post the german link to the 1995 case that states the majority of the craftmanship and process needs to be done in Germany to be made in Germany. It is on the Germany govt link in german. And easily found on google.de

Also show me the proof that wiha makes their drivers in china. We can go back and forth on where wiha are made.

You have been on your high horse saying US standards are great, and it is set in stone. The fact is it is not.

 

[lennoxlennox]

my thing show me the german reg that says 10% that you have been touting. I and a couple of member have looked but can not seem to find it.

are you kidding me???

there are several links at the start of this thread, only a few of the many listed in both german and english

i've even posted a direct quote from the german manufacturers association


and yet you don't believe it! enough said


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