X/32 " (i.e. 19/32 ", 21/32 ") socket set recommendations

[Private Lugnutz]

Perhaps some manufacturers only listed 21/32 as a special for Ford Model A connecting rod nuts.

If you're referring to the mfgrs in the table that included that size in their regular lineup, I don't recall seeing such footnotes in their listings, Jock. If you're referring to the mfgrs in the table that didn't include it, suggesting it may have been noted elsewhere in the catalog, that's very possible. I didn't look that hard. That was a prominent use case for the 21/32". Also Ford V8-60 main bearings. The Herbrand 1937 and 1941 catalogs are the most prolific I know of for use case footnotes, but I didn't think to include Herbrand in my hasty survey, and use cases wasn't really my purpose this time around. I only alluded to them briefly upthread, because we have discussed them elsewhere and often and I have the use cases linked in the Sticky to a handy summary post by leg17 on the topic, including also 23/32” (1933-34 Chevrolet front main bearings) and 29/32” (Chrysler Corp shackle bolts). My purpose was just to go through a handful of representative mfgrs' catalogs in those timeframes to back up the evolution I discussed in post #2 and #5.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Here's the blurb in the Sticky

/32nds
- Antique pressed steel socket wrenches in a broad range of /32nds sizes (3/32" to 1-9/32", in /32nds) are typically oversized to accommodate crude hardware manufacturing standards.
- Vintage end and socket wrenches in /32nds sizes are not. They are not metric equivalents or made for tamper-proof fasteners, either, to name a few of the most common misconceptions.
* Most correspond to U.S.S. nuts and bolts, which had heads that were exactly 1-1/2 x the diameter of the bolt + 1/8", which results in them being 1/16” or 1/8” wider in Across-the-Flats O.D. than S.A.E. nuts and bolts of the same thread size.
* Wrenches in /32nds sizes were made from the advent of U.S.S. nuts and bolts in the 1800’s right through the Unified Thread Standard in 1948.
* Some /32nds sizes lasted well into the 1950’s to accommodate special applications on very common and popular cars in the late 1930s.
Good summary of all of the above here.

 

[four.cycle]

^ Your "chart" paints a very clear and very confusing picture. Clear because of the detail. Confusing because it doesn't appear any two manufacturers were ever on the same page!

 

[YoshiMoshi3]

Searching through some of my WWII TM's confirmed the use case.

Interesting, which technical manual is this from?

(3/2)X + 1/8 = 27/32
(3/2)X = 27/32 - 2/16
(3/2)X = 27/32 - 4/32
(3/2)X = 23/32
X = (23/32)(3/2)
X = 69/64
X = 1 + 5/64

A very oddly sized diameter bolt of 1 + 5/64 " I guess would have used a 27/32 " socket I suppose. Likely why the application for a 27/32 is still unknown?

I know this is a bit off topic, but are the 53/64 and 57/64 the only X/64 sockets known to exist? I know that there are some lug nut extractor sockets that are splined drive that are modern made. But I think 53/64 and 57/64 I think are the only vintage made sizes.

It's strange that there were multiple manufacturers of 53/64 and 57/64, but only one manufacturer known who has made the 27/32 size.

 

[humber2]

No image tonite but this morning I scored a Hinsdale SR24W socket, 1/2 drive 12 point 45/64

I will research if in fact this is a Whitworth dimension Americanised.

 

[four.cycle]

I know this is a bit off topic, but are the 53/64 and 57/64 the only X/64 sockets known to exist? I

^ I believe the 57/64" socket fit a Buick spark plug. Fairly limited application.
Not sure what the 53/64" size was for.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

^ Your "chart" paints a very clear and very confusing picture. Clear because of the detail. Confusing because it doesn't appear any two manufacturers were ever on the same page!

Oh, that's not my impression. Yes, there is certainly some variance, a size or two plus or minus here and there, but plenty of sameness. Especially if you look at in groupings. Indestro, Hinsdale, NB, and SK had a wider aperture for the sizes that were not S.A.E. or U.S.S. standards. Whereas Blackhawk, Snap-on, and Walden mainly catered to those.

Note that the chart should not be read as exhaustive. I didn't look at the 1/2-inch drive hexagon table in every catalog from each of those mfgrs in those timeframes. I dipped into one or two cats in each timeframe for each mfgr. There might be more agreement.

The point, again, was to confirm the industry wide evolution and trends I had described for Yoshi off the top of my head in posts #2 and #5 (and #17)...


and capture it representatively.

Interesting, which technical manual is this from?

Standard Regulation 700-51-156, Supplies and Equipment, 27 August 1953.

If you're not understanding the headers, it's just changing obsolete descriptions and FSN's to new descriptions and FSNs, if applicable, as needed.

I have even more of the same kind of information in WWII TM's that are more fragile to handle. Maybe later I will take some time to find prior photos of those pages from a prior conversation. I was merely trying to show you the prevalence of odd /32" sizes among SPW's, including the 27/.

Likely why the application for a 27/32 is still unknown?

Huh? I just evidenced the spark plugs use case for you. If you mean on which specific vehicles, no, I have never had the desire or need to track down that much detail for the 27/32" SPW in wartime vehicles or for that particular socket in my BSPCo kits.

...are the 53/64 and 57/64 the only X/64 sockets known to exist?

If you mean detachable in the semi-modern and modern era? I don't know if they're the only /64ths off the top of my head. If you really want to know something like that, poke through mfgrs' catalogs on IA/ITCL.

Definitely not the only two sockets with /64" service openings to ever exist. Mossberg made detachable heavy-duty sockets with an entire range of /64" service opening sizes - from 29/64" to 1-17/64" - in the late 1920's, after pressed steel, before hot-forged. I have a few. See the 29/64" below and a link to my GJ post with photos of other examples and a catalog cut here.

There's little doubt this practice emerged from their propensity for making a range of sockets with /64" service openings in the Brass Era press fit to fixed handle socket wrenches, such as these Tee Handles from my collection.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Not sure what the 53/64" size was for.

They've popped up before. Including Indestro . Link to my post on DI thread, here.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I know one application where a detachable socket with a 49/64" service opening would work very well! The eponymous lugnutz on this '43 Willys MB jeep. It was issued with a "Socket wrench, wheel nut" (street name: lug nut wrench) made in-house by Willys-Overland with a specified 49/64" service opening. A lug wrench with a specified 25/32" service opening and a different bend on the handle was optional, and deep sockets with 25/32" service openings will fit just fine.

 

[four.cycle]

^ This is why I was saying "confusing". Duro-Chrome's 1947 catalog shows a spark plug socket with a 53/64" opening, but no 57/64".
The 1948 Indestro catalog shows a spark plug socket with a 53/64" opening, but no 57/64".
The 1948 Herbrand catalog cites the 57/64" opening to be a size which fits pre-1938 Buick spark plugs.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

A, my chart doesn't show any /64" use cases (and I am not going there!) and B, you may have an unrealistic expectation for consistency across time with the same mfgr, let alone others/industry. (I'd warn you to stay away from that /64" rabbit hole, but I fear it may already be too late. )

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Maybe later I will take some time to find prior photos of those pages from a prior conversation.

Here ya go, @YoshiMoshi3. You can get more of your /32" rocks off reviewing these SPW pages from my 1945 ORD 5 SNL J-4. (Basically, a huge military hand tools catalog.) Several instances of 27/'s in there.

 

[YoshiMoshi3]

"Only" is a strong term and even with the "seems" this statement is a lot more declarative than I would be without some caveats. As far as we have been able to ascertain, so far, empirically, it is starting to look that way. I don't have, I don't recall seeing or being aware of, and I can't find in searches for examples or of major mfgr's catalogs any examples of a 1/2-inch square drive socket with a hex or double-hex 27/32" service opening in the hot-forged (1919->) era.

I DO OWN a collection of spark plug sockets, from early to WWII...



...they tend to like /32nds sizes...



...and one of those has a 27/32" hex service opening.



Even though the Bethlehem Spark Plug Co sockets are not deep, I don't think it's too far of a stretch to suggest there is a logical connection there.

Searching through some of my WWII TM's confirmed the use case.

No image tonite but this morning I scored a Hinsdale SR24W socket, 1/2 drive 12 point 45/64

I will research if in fact this is a Whitworth dimension Americanised.

Ah yea, I think I have seen this before in the catalog, I would have to look for it, but it is part of there whitworth set. Any chance you can measure the AF dimension?

 

[Private Lugnutz]

^
@YoshiMoshi3
If you meant to reply to my post #31 (which you just quoted in full), I don't see it.

 

[YoshiMoshi3]

Oh, that's not my impression. Yes, there is certainly some variance, a size or two plus or minus here and there, but plenty of sameness. Especially if you look at in groupings. Indestro, Hinsdale, NB, and SK had a wider aperture for the sizes that were not S.A.E. or U.S.S. standards. Whereas Blackhawk, Snap-on, and Walden mainly catered to those.

Note that the chart should not be read as exhaustive. I didn't look at the 1/2-inch drive hexagon table in every catalog from each of those mfgrs in those timeframes. I dipped into one or two cats in each timeframe for each mfgr. There might be more agreement.

The point, again, was to confirm the industry wide evolution and trends I had described for Yoshi off the top of my head in posts #2 and #5 (and #17)...


and capture it representatively.

Standard Regulation 700-51-156, Supplies and Equipment, 27 August 1953.

If you're not understanding the headers, it's just changing obsolete descriptions and FSN's to new descriptions and FSNs, if applicable, as needed.

I have even more of the same kind of information in WWII TM's that are more fragile to handle. Maybe later I will take some time to find prior photos of those pages from a prior conversation. I was merely trying to show you the prevalence of odd /32" sizes among SPW's, including the 27/.

Huh? I just evidenced the spark plugs use case for you. If you mean on which specific vehicles, no, I have never had the desire or need to track down that much detail for the 27/32" SPW in wartime vehicles or for that particular socket in my BSPCo kits.

If you mean detachable in the semi-modern and modern era? I don't know if they're the only /64ths off the top of my head. If you really want to know something like that, poke through mfgrs' catalogs on IA/ITCL.

Definitely not the only two sockets with /64" service openings to ever exist. Mossberg made detachable heavy-duty sockets with an entire range of /64" service opening sizes - from 29/64" to 1-17/64" - in the late 1920's, after pressed steel, before hot-forged. I have a few. See the 29/64" below and a link to my GJ post with photos of other examples and a catalog cut here.

There's little doubt this practice emerged from their propensity for making a range of sockets with /64" service openings in the Brass Era press fit to fixed handle socket wrenches, such as these Tee Handles from my collection.

Love those X/64 sockets. I was wondering would you by any chance be able to measure the openings on one of them to check the tolerance? I'm remember reading somewhere that the tolerance was kind of high on these types of sockets. I'm curious to see how accurate they are.

 

[YoshiMoshi3]

Here ya go, @YoshiMoshi3. You can get more of your /32" rocks off reviewing these SPW pages from my 1945 ORD 5 SNL J-4. (Basically, a huge military hand tools catalog.) Several instances of 27/'s in there.

And a hidden gem, a 37/64 socket reference!

 

[leg17]

My brain just burped and I think I remember a reference to some */64 sizes being intended for galvanized fasteners. But, my usual caveat, I don't remember what I had for breakfast.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

^ May be the case at one time, later, for the holdovers into the Late (Hot-Forged) Detachable Era, but in the Fixed Era, they were standard spec. I already showed my Mossberg examples. Here is list of Williams socket wrenches. (The "offset" in the P/N column refers to the shape of the handle the sockets are forged on. The "straight" refers to no bend, with a pin handle through a cross-drilled hole.) Source is a 1920 Harron, Rickard, and McCone catalog. Note that 1920 is 17 or so years after the advent of detachable sockets (pressed steel) for the mechanics trade, 1 year after Blackhawk started forging them, and the same year Snap-on started. This was the beginning of the end for fixed socket wrenches - and also x/64" as standard tooling.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I'm curious to see how accurate they are.

Well, I can't find my mechanical caliper at the moment, and the digital is dead, but this steel rule shows them spot on.

 

[Cruzan80]

Heresy! Inside micrometer (showing tenths) or BUST!!!

 

[Private Lugnutz]

^ Snerk.

Honestly, I really have misplaced my manual jobbie, and the digital really does need a new battery, but it looks pretty sharp and more appropriate with the 64th graduations on that Starrett tempered steel rule.

 

[Gebirgekind]

I was surprised to see someone up there suggest that Wright and Proto "have" 19/32, 21/32, 25/32, 29/32, and 31/32. Perhaps they meant "had", meaning vintage production, not current production.

Surprisingly it's true - current production: https://www.wrighttool.com/products...-drive-12-pt-standard-hand-sockets-sae-metric

Proto too, but their website is weird to navigate. We appreciate all your wisdom and experience @Private Lugnutz, quite a neat history lesson here!

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Surprisingly it's true...

Pleasantly! Thanks. I thought I'd never stop scrolling... , but the old catalogs freak and good engineer (who should never be too far away from a good draftsman... ) in me loves the mechanical dimensional spec drawings on that site.

That should make the quest to assemble a ×/32" rail much less quixotic for @YoshiMoshi3 Or anyone else!

As I alluded to at these junctures...

I think it will require something like this...

1920's/1930's Machined or Hot-Forged/Cold-Broached
13/32
17/32
23/32
27/32

1940's (or Later) Hot-Forged/Hot-Broached
19/32
21/32
25/32
29/32
31/32

When 19/, 21/, 25/, 29/ and 31/ were still being made, the others (13/, 17/, 23/ and 27/) were already obsolete or being phrased out

You'd need to find and buy a big early set (Hinsdale, NB, Indestro, SK, etc) with the oddballs and then a later set (Walden, NB, Plomb, etc) with the more standard others.

// BREAK //

...quite a neat history lesson here!

Thanks.

 

[YoshiMoshi3]

Here's my 53/64 and 57/64 examples.

So X/64 was common in the detachable fixed socket era in the late 1800s and lost prevalence with detachable sockets. A bit confused how first ratchet patent was 1860s, but it seems like tool catalogs from back then have been lost to rest of time, and the first socket set wasn't until auto cle 1905 set? Seems like a few decades of ratchets without a socket set?

 

[Private Lugnutz]

So X/64 was common in the detachable fixed socket era in the late 1800s and lost prevalence with detachable sockets.

I don't know anything about the late 1800s with respect to fixed (un-detachably forged, welded, press-fit) socket wrenches (Tee handles, offsets, etc) in x/64" service opening sizes. They were being made in the 1900-1920 era, along with x/32" and other sizes, and I said it's easy to see how that led to them also being made in early detachable constructions, before their obsolescence with shrinking boltage standards.

A bit confused how first ratchet patent was 1860s,...[ ]...and the first socket set wasn't until auto cle 1905 set? Seems like a few decades of ratchets without a socket set?

As I have discussed down here on other threads (see 'Antique Ratchets', for one), the first socket set explicitly servicing the early automotive mechanics' trade is commonly attributed to Emile Contal's 1902 Auto-Cle ratchet and pressed-steel sockets, because older ratchets for drilling and other industrial work - especially those made with a range of female opening sizes to turn a range of nuts and bolts, in construction (bridges, tunnels) and around railroads and mills, are generally looked at as a separate category. In the very late 1800's, 1886 or so to just before the turn of the century, a few US mfgrs made "sockets" (that were more like adaptors), to use with one ratchet (see Smith; Lowell; Climax; Greene, Tweed; etc), but these were coarse, bulky, heavy duty affairs and, again, not intended for the Brass Era automotive sector, which was largely serviced by fixed socket wrenches well up to the early 1920's - despite primitive ratchets in adjacent industries, the Auto-Cle, its mimics, and even Blackhawk's, Snap-on's and Walden's hot-forged cold-broached innovations.

...but it seems like tool catalogs from back then have been lost to rest of time...

Use Google Books and IA.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

To return to the original subject...

I'm looking for a socket set that contains X/32 of an inch sockets. I would prefer to buy a set instead of just a bunch of single sockets if possible. It's fine if there are other sockets within the set I don't need. But I'm currently missing the following sizes: 13/32, 17/32, 19/32, 21/32, 23/32, 25/32, 27/32, 29/32 and 31/32. Anyone can point me to a particular set that contains all (or most) of these sockets?

...did you see @Gebirgekind 's post (#62) and my reply (#63)?

It's readily obvious that I have a funny bone for the history of hand tools and I could endlessly discuss it, but you're branching out on tangential branches now, many of which are topics with existing threads.

My advice is to buy a modern set from Wright or Proto to one fell swoop the S.A.E. 19/32", 25/32", and 31/32" and other (21/32", 29/32") openings and try to catch-as-catch-can the odd and non-standard sizes (11/32", 17/32", and 23/32") from vintage markets. That way you'd have most of them covered with modern technology and only a few would be older, cruder constructions. And as I said, if you want to buy a whole set (with box and a few handles) to one-fell-swoop those as well, I would let one of my lesser sets go.

 

[YoshiMoshi3]

No image tonite but this morning I scored a Hinsdale SR24W socket, 1/2 drive 12 point 45/64

I will research if in fact this is a Whitworth dimension Americanised.

Any chance you can measure this to see if it's truley 45/64 or a whitworth dimension?

 

[humber2]

It is interesting to look at a Stahlwille chart showing min and max tolerances for each size socket or wrench opening.

45/64 will be a tight fit for 3/8 WW so I’ll do a check fit tomorrow.

23/32 would be much closer to that mark.

My Hinsdale collection seeks HW1 and HW6 to complete, looks likely to be pre WW2, here it is…

 

[Provincial]

Any chance you can measure this to see if it's truley 45/64 or a whitworth dimension?

45/64 is .7031" and 3/8 Whitworth is .710"
53/64 is .8281" and 7/16 Whitworth is .820"
57/64 is .8906" and 1/2 Whitworth is .920"

So none of these would be a good match. Not good matches for metric, either.

 

[YoshiMoshi3]

It is interesting to look at a Stahlwille chart showing min and max tolerances for each size socket or wrench opening.

45/64 will be a tight fit for 3/8 WW so I’ll do a check fit tomorrow.

23/32 would be much closer to that mark.

My Hinsdale collection seeks HW1 and HW6 to complete, looks likely to be pre WW2, here it is…

Thanks! Can't wait to find out if they are actually whitworth sizes or are the sizes stamped on the socket. Sockets from thesr sets always come up when discussing /64 sockets, but they were advertised as Whitworth sockets when they were sold brand new back in the day. They could be a more modern source of /64 sockets if they are the sizes stamped on them, and likely maybe more common then the Mossberg set that had /64 sizes. Or they could truly be whitworth sizes in opening with American sizes stamped on the sockets. Would be nice to finally put this mystery to bed!

Although because they were advertised as Whitworth sockets, they might also be not so common.

 

[humber2]

It is interesting to look at a Stahlwille chart showing min and max tolerances for each size socket or wrench opening.

45/64 will be a tight fit for 3/8 WW so I’ll do a check fit tomorrow.

23/32 would be much closer to that mark.

My Hinsdale collection seeks HW1 and HW6 to complete, looks likely to be pre WW2, here it is…

I test fitted all 8 box ends to Whitworth nuts and bolts today and all are good fits.

I will keep a watch out for HW1 and HW6 to complete this set.

Finding the socket set will I suspect be a harder task but who knows?

 

[YoshiMoshi3]

I test fitted all 8 box ends to Whitworth nuts and bolts today and all are good fits.

I will keep a watch out for HW1 and HW6 to complete this set.

Finding the socket set will I suspect be a harder task but who knows?

Any chance you can measure the across the flats just to be sure with calipers of the socket in question?
Any pictures of this beautiful SR24W socket?

I don't believe your box end HW wrench set to be Whitworth, but the sizes actually stamped on them.

But your SR24W socket I believe to be part of the Whitworth set, stamped with SAE sizes. Leading to the confusion if they are the size stamped on them, or Whitworth sizes. Hopefully you can get a measurement on that socket to put the mystery to rest.

46/64 " = 23/32 " ~ 0.72 " ~ 18.26 mm
3/8 W ~ 0.71 " = 18.03 mm
~0.71 " = 18 mm
45/64 " ~ 0.70 " ~ 17.86 mm
~ 0.69 " = 17.5 mm
44/64 " = 22/32 " = 11/16 " ~ 0.69 " ~ 17.46 mm
5/16 W = 0.6 " = 15.24 mm

So 3/8 W ~ 45/64 ", but not really. 3/8 W is closer to 18 mm than it is to 45/64 ". If sockets from the set are the sizes stamped on the sockets, the set is a good source of /64 sockets, if they are whitworth then well those are very common

 

[d42jeep]

I spotted this 31-32“ socket in with some P&C tools today.
-Don

 

[RubiconJK]

Here are some stray x/32 examples I dug out of my "island of misfit sockets drawer". The un numbered deep Plomb 1-3/32 has always been another one of those mysteries to me. I'll be keeping it, but @YoshiMoshi3 if you can use any of the others shown here let me know. There is a Blackhawk 19/32, Craftsman BE series 19/32 and 21/32, S-K knurled 19/32, 25/32 and 31/32, and Husky 19/32 and 21/32.

 

[YoshiMoshi3]

@Private Lugnutz, out of curiosity what is BSPCo?

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Bethlehem Spark Plug Company. Sorry. It's a long name to type!

 

[alinc100]

About 1/2 way down the page there is a Ford Special set that has several /32" sockets: http://alloy-artifacts.org/syracuse-wrench.html

 

[Private Lugnutz]

About 1/2 way down the page there is a Ford Special set that has several /32" sockets: http://alloy-artifacts.org/syracuse-wrench.html

I have the version of the "Ford Special" set that Syracuse private-labeled for Smith & Hemenway. See below. And I have the larger Syracuse in-house version, that includes 17/32", 19/32", 21/32", 23/32", 25/32", 29/31", and 31/32". See also below. These are examples of what I have termed "equivalent" to Mossberg throughout this conversation, though, and not really user class tools. While Syracuse, in league with Charles Miller, and on their own, did later make more robust sockets out of malleable iron, they are not user class either.

 

[humber2]

Hinsdale Catalog 101 has been found online.

Pages 11 and 31 answer most questions, they are definitely Americanised Whitworth Dimensions.

Updating my wrench set status I see no HW6 but I’ll continue the search for HW1

And here are images of Socket SR24W alongside a BSF nut and bolt.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Pages 11 and 31 answer most questions, they are definitely Americanised Whitworth Dimensions.

If by "Americanised" you mean the opening are proximal fractional inches of the decimal inches spec, yes, but I think you meant pages 11 and 29. I posted excerpts in the other thread these questions spilled over into. The frustration with the Hinsdale tables is they don't correlate their P/Ns to Whitworth bolt sizes.