200a feed to dwelling, 4/0 max distance?

[PCustoms]

Don't forget wire and rods for grounding at both the main and house

Already have 2 rods at the house, likely will have to redo the wire (currently tied into the existing meter pan) but have a short spool of that already.

Basically just need to decide where I want the new meter and start digging. Ought to be interesting when the PoCo stops to review, I discovered yesterday the pole and guy lines have quite a bit of movement in them. I wish I knew what their long term plans were, the high voltage line thought the woods that feeds ~12 houses really needs some TLC and some heavy trimming. Given how steep the terrain is I wish they'd move it to the main road and feed the loop from the other end. Only 2 houses would need to be reconnected but would eliminate about 8 poles worth of unreliable overhead.

 

[PCustoms]

Bump.

Got a few questions.

1. What size conduit for 4/0, 4/0, 2/0, 4 MHF? Massive price jump around from 2" to 2.5"
2. Recommendations for meter main?
   1. PoCo doesn't have any restrictions
   2. Square D homeline seems to be in stock, also what I have for what will become the sub.
   3. Need to have either lugs to feed 200A out or breaker space, plus breaker space for 100A
3. Would meter and separate panel be better from a performance standpoint? May actually be cheaper.....
4. 1st disconnect is at the pole. Will 2nd disconnect be required at house? The indoor sub will be within 2 feet of where the feed comes in form meter/main

I'm actually confused as to what code cycle VT is on. When I go to the state site, it shows a 2020 document where the 2020 NEC has been adopted with some exceptions, hower right in the first paragraph it says does not apply to "A single-family owner-occupied dwelling".

in addition further down the same webpage it clearly shows we are on the 2017 code....

 

[sparky 1971]

Bump.

Got a few questions.

1. What size conduit for 4/0, 4/0, 2/0, 4 MHF? Massive price jump around from 2" to 2.5"

If it's only for a sleeve out of the ground at the ends, 2'' will be fine. MHF is a direct burial wire. If you are planning on using conduit underground the entire way, get XHHW.

1. Recommendations for meter main?
   1. PoCo doesn't have any restrictions
      1. Square D homeline seems to be in stock, also what I have for what will become the sub.
      2. Need to have either lugs to feed 200A out or breaker space, plus breaker space for 100A

This is the meter main I use, takes Siemens breakers. In this day and age, get what's available.

Milbank - U5168-XL-200-BL-NE

www.milbankworks.com

1. 1. 1. Would meter and separate panel be better from a performance standpoint? May actually be cheaper.....

No, and it will be more of a pain to install. It wouldn't be worth the small amount of $ that might be saved.

1. 1. 1. 1st disconnect is at the pole. Will 2nd disconnect be required at house? The indoor sub will be within 2 feet of where the feed comes in form meter/main

Not sure on that one, make a call to the inspector as it's going to be his interpretation . Here, in rural areas and new installs, the meter main is on the pole and the AHJ is ok with that being the exterior disconnect as long as it's in a place the fire department can see it when they pull in the driveway (readily accessible). The pole mounted meter main at my own house wouldn't have passed a 2020 inspection. Luckily, I put the new service in in 2019 or I would have been putting a disconnect on the side of my house.

1. 1. 1. I'm actually confused as to what code cycle VT is on. When I go to the state site, it shows a 2020 document where the 2020 NEC has been adopted with some exceptions, hower right in the first paragraph it says does not apply to "A single-family owner-occupied dwelling".
      
      in addition further down the same webpage it clearly shows we are on the 2017 code....

If your on the 2017, the exterior disconnect doesn't matter. Make a phone call.

 

[PCustoms]

If it's only for a sleeve out of the ground at the ends, 2'' will be fine. MHF is a direct burial wire. If you are planning on using conduit underground the entire way, get XHHW.

First off thanks for your reply.


I'm doing conduit the whole way, too rocky around here not to. MHF was cheaper then individual wires (last I checked, but prices are changing daily). The 40% increase to get 2.5" PVC (if needed) kills any savings. Will it pull in 2.5? I believe the fill chart said OK....

This is the meter main I use, takes Siemens breakers. In this day and age, get what's available.

Milbank - U5168-XL-200-BL-NE

www.milbankworks.com

No, and it will be more of a pain to install. It wouldn't be worth the small amount of $ that might be saved.

Agreed on the bold part. It was like pulling teeth last week to get info from the supply house (all my old work contacts retired), they have one in stock but didn't get details and it was $600. Home Depot has an 8 space for $320, and a 20 for $280. Was thinking separate meter and panel more for options then cost savings, not seeing much available though.

Not sure on that one, make a call to the inspector as it's going to be his interpretation . Here, in rural areas and new installs, the meter main is on the pole and the AHJ is ok with that being the exterior disconnect as long as it's in a place the fire department can see it when they pull in the driveway (readily accessible). The pole mounted meter main at my own house wouldn't have passed a 2020 inspection. Luckily, I put the new service in in 2019 or I would have been putting a disconnect on the side of my house.

If your on the 2017, the exterior disconnect doesn't matter. Make a phone call.

I'll call a few contacts later today. VT is pretty lax on owner occupied single family, no inspections. Pretty sure we are on 2017 cycle. The PoCo made the comment about the exterior disconnect, looks like he was off base based in what I found.

What section of the 2020 NEC calls it out?

Here's what I see online



The "VT electric safety rules" doc is the one that explicitly says does not apply to single family, owner occupied residential, but also reference 2020 NEC. It also modified the following:

delete and replace as follows - article 230.70(A)(1)
(1) Location. The service disconnecting means
shall be installed at a readily accessible location
either outside of a building or structure, or inside a
building or structure nearest the point of entrance
of the service conductors, not to exceed
10 feet of conductor length from the point of
entrance.

My panel will be less then 2 feet from the point of entrance, and it is 5 feet from the door when you walk in the house (walk out basement garage).

I think either way I'm good.

 

[PCustoms]

Xhhw-2 is cheaper then MHF again, so that's the direction.

 

[PCustoms]

Well it seems this project, like everything else on this house, is wrapped up in 30 years of poor maintenance and bad design.

PoCo needs to address some issues on their end, which will affect me (TBD how much). So my current plan while they get their act together is:

• Set a 20' 6x6 or 8x8 pole that I own on edge of yard. (Pending PoCo OK)
• Move weatherhead and arial to that pole
• Mount Square D - RC816F200C to new pole
• Add 2 ground rods at pole
• Use feed through lugs to feed 2pcs 4/0, 1pc 2/0 and 1pc 4 XHHW-2
• 2" conduit to house
  • 18" underground across yard
  • Attach to foundation under deck (no normal access under deck, bit subject to damage)
• Unbond house panel
• Move generator inlet to new panel (still looking for proper interlock)

Did I miss anything?

 

[mike93lx]

I wouldn't go smaller than 8x8 for a post that big. Any tension on a 6x6 will cause it to curl significantly over time.

Is that pole where you want your generator to sit? If you are trenching anyway, might be worth running a line to allow locating it remotely. A little annoying having to walk back and forth for the interlock and generator, but in bad weather, might be nice to have the generator near the house

 

[PCustoms]

Is that pole where you want your generator to sit? If you are trenching anyway, might be worth running a line to allow locating it remotely. A little annoying having to walk back and forth for the interlock and generator, but in bad weather, might be nice to have the generator near the house

For now. Eventually I'll put a shed there to park Genny, mower and yard tools. It's only about 40' off my porch.

Right now generator is in garage basement. Still get wet/cold when I need to use it and it's loud so close to the house.

Probably just leave the current install and put a new one in so I have options.

 

[PCustoms]

Am I off base planning to use 2" PVC for this?

Seeing some conflicting info....PoCo has some odd things, past their meter, in the service guide. My understanding was NEC takes over at that point.

 

[mike93lx]

Am I off base planning to use 2" PVC for this?

Seeing some conflicting info....PoCo has some odd things, past their meter, in the service guide. My understanding was NEC takes over at that point.

If you are doing it, NEC applies. They have their own rules.

If it is a straight run, just bends on the end, I think 2" will be OK. If it isn't straight, I'd go 2.5".

Either way, have a helper and use wire lube

 

[Sumboodie]

Is #2 aluminum ok for 100 amps?

 

[PCustoms]

Is #2 aluminum ok for 100 amps?

I don't think so, but don't quote me on that, I haven't checked as it isn't relevant to this project.

 

[sparky 1971]

Is #2 aluminum ok for 100 amps?

Yes for service entrance conductors. No for almost everything else.

 

[sparky 1971]

Am I off base planning to use 2" PVC for this?

Seeing some conflicting info....PoCo has some odd things, past their meter, in the service guide. My understanding was NEC takes over at that point.

2" will be fine. If you end up using XHHW, make sure no wires get crossed before going in the pipe.

 

[Sumboodie]

Yes for service entrance conductors. No for almost everything else.

Yeah, meter to panel, about 125ft underground

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yeah, meter to panel, about 125ft underground

This is for a dwelling and the feeder covers the entire load of the dwelling? If not then you need #1al

 

[Norcal]

Yes for service entrance conductors. No for almost everything else.

Where they serve the entire load for a dwelling.

 

[PCustoms]

Well it seems this project, like everything else on this house, is wrapped up in 30 years of poor maintenance and bad design.

PoCo needs to address some issues on their end, which will affect me (TBD how much). So my current plan while they get their act together is:

• Set a 20' 6x6 or 8x8 pole that I own on edge of yard. (Pending PoCo OK)
• Move weatherhead and arial to that pole
• Mount Square D - RC816F200C to new pole
• Add 2 ground rods at pole
• Use feed through lugs to feed 2pcs 4/0, 1pc 2/0 and 1pc 4 XHHW-2
• 2" conduit to house
  • 18" underground across yard
  • Attach to foundation under deck (no normal access under deck, bit subject to damage)
• Unbond house panel
• Move generator inlet to new panel (still looking for proper interlock)

Did I miss anything?

Well, PoCo finally found the easement docs last week. Current line is correct and I have the files now. I was hoping they had played it fast and loose back in the 60's and that I could leverage that (all neighbors would benefit from getting line out of the woods/off the steep embankment).

They did not figure out when/how they would replace the pole, or if I could set my own 8x8. So plans change again!

Eliminating the conduit and wire down the pole and a pedestal saves me $800 dollars. A shed is $1500, and I sort of wanted one anyway. So today I set some (definitely overkill) piers to build an 8x12 electrical house.

I'll move the arial over, saving me about 50 feet underground. Set a meter can on the outside, and a small panel on the inside (another small savings). From there I can trench to the house as initially planned.

 

[PCustoms]

I'll call a few contacts later today. VT is pretty lax on owner occupied single family, no inspections. Pretty sure we are on 2017 cycle. The PoCo made the comment about the exterior disconnect, looks like he was off base based in what I found.

What section of the 2020 NEC calls it out?

Here's what I see online



The "VT electric safety rules" doc is the one that explicitly says does not apply to single family, owner occupied residential, but also reference 2020 NEC. It also modified the following:



My panel will be less then 2 feet from the point of entrance, and it is 5 feet from the door when you walk in the house (walk out basement garage).

I think either way I'm good.

Well, despite rain almost daily (some torrential) I'm down to just some trim on the shed. PoCo stopped buy this morning and blessed my meter and mast location...

But he commented on the lack of disconnect.

Regarding the disconnect.. Check out NEC 230.85. This is a newish rule requiring the external. It is designed for first responders.

I'm completely confused now, as this is on the 2020 NEC. How do I tell what cycle I'm on? Per my above post, state website indicates 2017, with limited (commercial) implementation of 2020.

I really didn't want an external panel, but at this point it seems to be the less confusing option.

 

[PCustoms]

Still cannot figure out what cycle were on:

• NFPA says 2020 with amendments
• NFPA links to State site, which says
  • 2017
  • Has 2020 VT electric safety rules
    • Rules specifically say not applicable to owner occupied single family
    • Has 230.70 amended

What's the difference between 230.70 and 230.85?

 

[mike93lx]

Have you tried calling the inspector?

Edit...just found your comment about no inspections...if that is the case, why the worry? I'm not advising ignoring code, but if it won't be inspected, use your best judgement based on the info you have. I wouldnt install an external disconnect if I didn't have to either

 

[PCustoms]

Have you tried calling the inspector?

Edit...just found your comment about no inspections...if that is the case, why the worry? I'm not advising ignoring code, but if it won't be inspected, use your best judgement based on the info you have. I wouldnt install an external disconnect if I didn't have to either

PoCo is giving mixed signals, initially they said past the meter they won't even look at, but he keeps bringing up the disconnect.

Let's say I need one, so I put it on the outbuilding. Now the entry at the house is 50-75' away, likely under a deck. Does that need a disconnect, and where? (Panel is a disconnect, 3' to the left of the door).

The dumb part is we are supported by the volunteer fire department in the next town, there's a covered bridge they can't cross to go the "short" way. If my house catches fire odds are it will be so far along when they get here that they won't be walking up to flip a switch.

 

[mike93lx]

PoCo is giving mixed signals, initially they said past the meter they won't even look at, but he keeps bringing up the disconnect.

Let's say I need one, so I put it on the outbuilding. Now the entry at the house is 50-75' away, likely under a deck. Does that need a disconnect, and where? (Panel is a disconnect, 3' to the left of the door).

The dumb part is we are supported by the volunteer fire department in the next town, there's a covered bridge they can't cross to go the "short" way. If my house catches fire odds are it will be so far along when they get here that they won't be walking up to flip a switch.

He may be misguided on the requirements. If he isn't an inspector, his opinion frankly doesn't matter.

 

[PCustoms]

He may be misguided on the requirements. If he isn't an inspector, his opinion frankly doesn't matter.

Agreed.

But they're helping me out on this project, so I'd rather not make waves and have them start going exactly by their book. With construction booming I could suddenly end up on the end of a long list

 

[sparky 1971]

Why not install a meter main and be done with it? 2020 NEC will be covered as well as shutting up the POCO. The POCO rep may know something about the requirements/which code cycle that you don't. You won't need a disconnect on the house and a mm will look, a heck of a lot better than a meter and a disconnect.

 

[PCustoms]

Why not install a meter main and be done with it? 2020 NEC will be covered as well as shutting up the POCO. The POCO rep may know something about the requirements/which code cycle that you don't. You won't need a disconnect on the house and a mm will look, a heck of a lot better than a meter and a disconnect.

Twofold

1. I want to minimize what is on the wall (meter+disconnect will not happen)
2. I wanted the main in the outbuilding

Plan was a simple meter base and then the main panel indoors. Total cost is like $250, and is the minimalist option on the outside. Meter/main is about $100 more, so not a huge impact if it shuts everyone up.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Keep in mind if you put a meter main outside, all subsequent downstream panels will need to be converted to subpanels with isolated neutral bars. any grounds on neutral bars will need to be moved over to new ground bars

 

[u2slow]

He may be misguided on the requirements. If he isn't an inspector, his opinion frankly doesn't matter.

In the absence of an inspector, you still need to appease the PoCo's requirements to hook you up. They can have requirements that go beyond code.

 

[mike93lx]

In the absence of an inspector, you still need to appease the PoCo's requirements to hook you up. They can have requirements that go beyond code.

I did use "opinion" specifically, but it is worth acknowledging that the POCO is a player and their written rules matter

 

[PCustoms]

Conduit questions:

1. Do I need schedule 80 to go from meter/Main down underground? Portion is attached to building, 12" or so is in free air. I suspect yes.
2. Can I run conduit attached to underside of deck? Options are in a joist bay, perpendicular along foundation or at an angle across the joists.
2a. Schedule 80 required in any of the above routes?

 

[PCustoms]

Conduit questions:

1. Do I need schedule 80 to go from meter/Main down underground? Portion is attached to building, 12" or so is in free air. I suspect yes.
2. Can I run conduit attached to underside of deck? Options are in a joist bay, perpendicular along foundation or at an angle across the joists.
2a. Schedule 80 required in any of the above routes?

Bump, kind of time sensitive as I've got a trench and apparently schedule 80 is hard to come by. As well as any elbows. WTF.

May need to go for a long drive depending on answers.

 

[mike93lx]

I'd do sched 80 anywhere that damage is possible/likely. Use an expansion fitting as well

Conduit under the deck is fine. I'd probably do your first option as it will be more out of the way if/when work on the deck is needed

 

[PCustoms]

I'd do sched 80 anywhere that damage is possible/likely. Use an expansion fitting as well.

Yep, got 2 expansion fittings yesterday.

Should have dug through the rack and got some schedule 80, they showed stock but the rack was a trainwreck. I thought about it, since my local store showed stock I waited, as I was an hour from home and didn't want a bundle of conduit sticking out as I drove the winding roads.

Today it seems to be unobtainable, and HD has no visibility to more. Did an online order to a slightly closer store, they already pushed the pick to tomorrow so let's see if they actually have any.

 

[PCustoms]

4/0, 4/0, 2/0 4 xhhw-2 ordered this morning, shop had to bring some in from a different location so I'll pick it up tomorrow.

$430 after tax for 89' plus some 4/0 and 2/0 for the mast.


Am I just an idiot? How the hell does the square D hub attach to the meter? Holes line up but 0 threads, just stripped a screw so that are not self taping

 

[PCustoms]

Am I just an idiot? How the hell does the square D hub attach to the meter? Holes line up but 0 threads, just stripped a screw so they are not self taping

Bump for am crowd

 

[PCustoms]

Just about ready for the PoCo.

Little confused by this




As it looks like I'd have to go the long way around to get there

 

[wyliesdiesels]

what are you confused about?

 

[sparky 1971]

Just about ready for the PoCo.

Little confused by this




As it looks like I'd have to go the long way around to get there

Confused about what? The black mark that is supposed to mean it was torqued at the factory or the ground lug that you aren't going to use?

 

[PCustoms]

Confused about what? The black mark that is supposed to mean it was torqued at the factory or the ground lug that you aren't going to use?

I fully understand witness marking.

I was confused about the tag behind the ground lug, and now your statement "ground lug that you aren't going to use".

Where do I connect my ground rods?

 

[sparky 1971]

I fully understand witness marking.

I was confused about the tag behind the ground lug, and now your statement "ground lug that you aren't going to use".

Where do I connect my ground rods?

In the bottom section, to the neutral bar. You could put it on the lug next to the neutral, but I would save that for something big in the future. The regular neutral bar should be able to accept up to a #4.