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Air lines.. what are you using?

sberry

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3/4" Maxline here. Currently just 3 drops, one built into the workbench, 1 to a reel, and one to the blast cabinet. I have enough materials left for another couple drops, but what's there now has been sufficient thus far.0683c7e19e5463af770bac54d19c58b5.jpg3d8200cd6cec12f5eaf907ceea54f4b9.jpg

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I like this, simple.
 

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Firebrick43

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What does that chart look like after a few years of compressor blow by allowing direct contact with oil which may or may not contain certain hydrocarbons, ketones, or cyclic ethers?

Don’t waste your time BBYeti. He copy and paste the same post/chart and listing sources or even manufactures lit means nothing to him. It’s like he owns significant amount of stock in a PVC manufacture.
 

MileHighRover

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Don’t waste your time BBYeti. He copy and paste the same post/chart and listing sources or even manufactures lit means nothing to him. It’s like he owns significant amount of stock in a PVC manufacture.

There's members on this board that have ran PVC air lines for decades in a shop environment with zero issues. PVC lines are being used all over the country without issue. Maybe those facts mean nothing to you and you're the one that can't be told otherwise. The road runs both ways.
 

Firebrick43

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There's members on this board that have ran PVC air lines for decades in a shop environment with zero issues. PVC lines are being used all over the country without issue. Maybe those facts mean nothing to you and you're the one that can't be told otherwise. The road runs both ways.

Anecdotal evidence you mention shouldn’t be confused with facts. Facts are known as empirical evidence.

Even though I have personally seen the aftermath of a PVC rupture, the facts I base my reasoning on is the PVC manufacture own empirical data.


When they state “NOT for compressed air or gasses.”

I tend to listen.
https://www.charlottepipe.com/Documents/Brochures/BR-PK.pdf
Page 24

When the plastic pipe institute, pvc trade organization, states it’s not safe, and needs to be encased , I tend to listen. (If it has to be encased you have lost all financial advantages to PVC??

https://plasticpipe.org/pdf/recommendation-b_transport_compressed_gas.pdf


When OSHA outlaws pvc for compressed gasses since 1988 and will fine you if they observe it, I listen.
https://www.osha.gov/dts/hib/hib_data/hib19880520.html

Google image search “pvc airline failure”! and you can see carnage galore


In essence, I don’t need a shard of pvc in my eye/****/nut sack to prove to me that it can, and one will explode. Just as I won’t drink the water in Mexico even if many of the locals do.

If you would be so kind to share your “facts” I would love see just one PVC manufacture recommend their product for compressed gases.

Toodles.
 

fourjeepin

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It's funny to see the bias against PVC. Especially with its very low cost and ease of installation. Use sched40 or higher, don't put it where direct sunlight can hit it. A simple painting would also prevent that UV risk

Look at that burst pressure rating for commonly available 3/4" sched40. It's 10X the rating of your air tools, your compressor emergency relief valve.

And who needs to leave their home garage / shop air system pressurized 24/7/365? Or rather, who can't wait or do something else for the couple minutes it takes your compressor to come up to pressure?

I installed 3/4” pvc in my shop for air. All except for two of the drops were kept out of UV. I very rarely left the system pressurized and it only lasted 7 years before it blew out. Luckily it didn’t explode, but about a 2 foot section came down. One end was at the tee for a drop and the other was just in the middle of the run.

I had planned to replace it anyway and had all of the parts on-hand waiting for the right time to tackle that project. The pex I replaced it with was way easier and quicker to install.
 

gearhead1

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I used PVC about 20 years ago at my old house. Never had a problem. Now I know that something else will be a better choice as I do not want shrapnel flying if it lets go.

I lot of people use gasoline to start a fire. I say diesel or kero is a better choice. People will say, I used gasoline and never had a problem.

I have an acquaintance who refused to wear his seatbelt. I always wear mine. Why, because you typically get less bodily injury in an accident if you wear it.

Racing is dangerous, but the risk is mitigated with the roll cage, seat, and 5 point harness.

It comes down to your limit of acceptable risk and risk mitigation. I don’t argue about it, no going back and forth over it. I don’t want the risk, especially with my family around. If someone wants the risk, that’s up to them. I’m not going to take that chance.

My shop structure is done, electrical is almost done. I don’t want to spend the money on RapidAir, copper, or steel pipe right now. I will use leftover pex from my water line, then replace later. I understand pex is subject to uv degradation and not the best solution. I also understand when pex let’s go, it bulges out then splits and doesn’t send shrapnel. So it’s not the best solution but the risk to bodily injury is mitigated because of its failure mode.

It all boils down to what is your acceptable level of risk and risk mitigation.
 

cnc-me

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There's members on this board that have ran PVC air lines for decades in a shop environment with zero issues. PVC lines are being used all over the country without issue. Maybe those facts mean nothing to you and you're the one that can't be told otherwise. The road runs both ways.

Have had PVC for more than 30 years, have not had a problem yet.
All outlets/drop tees are metal and secured to the wall with 4 screws.
I would not recommend putting in PVC to anyone, but we installed this a
long time ago and we didn't know better. It would cost a fortune to replace
the many hundreds of feet we have run in three buildings. Even have some underground with no issues. If I was putting in new I would go with copper.
 

allinon72

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In the process of installing 3/4” Rapidair Maxline. Spent way too much time toiling over this vs. Fastpipe. 4 drops shooting up into the ceiling. So far I don’t see a reason for a straightener and this stuff is very satisfying to work with.
 

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sberry

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In the process of installing 3/4” Rapidair Maxline. Spent way too much time toiling over this vs. Fastpipe. 4 drops shooting up into the ceiling. So far I don’t see a reason for a straightener and this stuff is very satisfying to work with.

I agree here. The object is to make it work first and some of this gets as convoluted as some of my first work. There is a bit of impression I leave that I am not a fussy craft worker but I am and can be. A few of these pieces are certainly beautiful but,,,,, so way engineered beyond and then fussed over, its great its good for 6000# and cost 2 thousand dollars as a hobby, its fricken beautiful and the craft work is excellent b8ut the effort is absolutely useless.
Its not a bad thing but it aint gonna work any better and while each piece is a work of art might not work as some of the fuss was misplaced in fundamental design. I did this I recognize it from my own experience.
When I was 25 would have built the tank, scraped the money up for every valve and fitting they made. Today would simply find an approved tank. Might fix something up but it would follow a standard practice, be a copy and clone without changing some fundamental design change do dangerous **** I routinely did at that age.
The screw ups I was lucky with back then are now less and I tend to stop a little more and try to emulate and by the time I have plumbed a dozen reels over some time, some new, some changes which are really my faves when I have a DUH moment. My last upgrade actually saved 60 ft of pipe by moving a reel I didnt use a lot to a place I use it as easy or more. I would have added a bunch of overhead pipe I simply didnt use and combine some all in one.
So,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, back to this thread. The reason to use something called fast pipe or rapid hose is cause its fast and easy. Steel pipe can be slow especially in tall, in the ceiling and in big buildings needs to get 21 ft sticks from the jobber and not that **** from the box store. The shorts are ok just not the thing to go along spans with up in the air where they are, also used heavy forged couplings are so much better.
The rapids I might be inclined to use 3/4 a bit more than 1/2 steel. If I thought I was gonna heavy impact north of 50, 75 ft would use the 3/4 and I like a home run idea. As far as I can see the only proprietary fittings a guy might need were male threaded adapters. A bit of extra hose with no joints or save every foot with a box of fittings? The manifold and the end can be common steel. In some places could screw the adapter right on to the regulator. In a main/manifold system in larger buildings want a service valve at secondary equipment,
I like the above post and I like the blue pipe job on one wall which is so simple its even easy to change or add, so much so its easier than trying to design every what if a guy can conceive with a hydrant every 4 ft.
 

sberry

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I like it all fixed. A hose from a reel or a whip screwed right to the line. I dont want to move it. I dont want others to move it. It all reaches where we do the work with overlap from both directions. I did use a 10 ft hose today from an occasional hydrant, its old, installed a long time ago, only use it to blow out an irrigation line once a year about 5 minutes. I had it valve plumbed in from my shop, its a long ****** but last time I redo the air simply added a quick ****** and I hook on with the hose reel.
Its once a year, I can hook it up, I dont want it charged anyway when its not in use.
This one in the pic above,,, you gonna put reels or whips up? Plumb right to those, looks like they got valves? Thats kind of nice. But cant be used without a hose. Can make home runs all regulated from 1 unit. Can add regs on the spot too, either way
 
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sberry

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I used PVC about 20 years ago at my old house. Never had a problem. Now I know that something else will be a better choice as I do not want shrapnel flying if it lets go.

I lot of people use gasoline to start a fire. I say diesel or kero is a better choice. People will say, I used gasoline and never had a problem.

I have an acquaintance who refused to wear his seatbelt. I always wear mine. Why, because you typically get less bodily injury in an accident if you wear it.

Racing is dangerous, but the risk is mitigated with the roll cage, seat, and 5 point harness.

It comes down to your limit of acceptable risk and risk mitigation. I don’t argue about it, no going back and forth over it. I don’t want the risk, especially with my family around. If someone wants the risk, that’s up to them. I’m not going to take that chance.

My shop structure is done, electrical is almost done. I don’t want to spend the money on RapidAir, copper, or steel pipe right now. I will use leftover pex from my water line, then replace later. I understand pex is subject to uv degradation and not the best solution. I also understand when pex let’s go, it bulges out then splits and doesn’t send shrapnel. So it’s not the best solution but the risk to bodily injury is mitigated because of its failure mode.

It all boils down to what is your acceptable level of risk and risk mitigation.
I just harped on this in the last post. I agree with improving here and since economy is a concern here put 1.2 inch where you need it and no point in building out a fancy system, its not gonna make any more air. I done setups like that using common ready made 25 ft air hose too. Main thing is to be able to add to it, tailor as you go, function over form to start with and convenience is everything. You aint gotta do it all perfect the first time. If you dont have the "best" it likely wont matter and the tire you are blowing up does not care.
Some of my "best" tools are salvage stuff I come up with this at the time I need them and a lot of it can be reconfigured, even copied. You only need a couple qc on the end of the hose but get about 2 or 3 spare extra for making up fittings and about 2 boxes of plugs,,, they are the male goes on the tool, some types come different size from 1/4 to 1/2, H comes in all 3,,, but also find some reducing bush and pipe *******. I like enough stuff I can make something up, aint gotta go to the store for a ****** when you get a new tool.
You can buy a 5 ft air wand and I might should but when I needed one made from 3/8 brake line and 1/4 ball valve on the spot. Its easier and cheaper to plan ahead and score some stuff at the fleas, they got good selection among tool vendors.
I dont flea a lot but a couple events I go to have them and there are some regulars been in it a long time. They got decent stock and some real good. Good to prototype gadgets from.
When I plumbed pic 4 in had considered screwing the reg straight on after the valve put had a whole box of free fittings there so I add a couple that didnt matter much. But note, service valve on pipe followed by union and then the rest of the equipment.
Pic 5 can see where one of the guys plumbed a whip on for a blow gun to the blue line for a job we did. That reg feeds 2 hose reels and 2 whips.
 

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sberry

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As you can see above I got them about every way made. 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, male, female. Seems I might have figured out after the fact could have skipped that bracket and bolted the filter to the column? Would have saved a step maybe or I salvaged it from another install.
 

Bigblockyeti

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I will use leftover pex from my water line, then replace later. I understand pex is subject to uv degradation and not the best solution. I also understand when pex let’s go, it bulges out then splits and doesn’t send shrapnel. So it’s not the best solution but the risk to bodily injury is mitigated because of its failure mode.

It all boils down to what is your acceptable level of risk and risk mitigation.


I don't remember which, but two PEX manufacturers use PEX for their air lines in their factories. That was all the proof I needed coupled by the way they fail.
 
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Redwngr

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When planning out the air system and the locations for air connections don't forget that for many tasks we are moving to battery operated tools.

We still need air, but maybe not at as many locations as in the past.

I'm currently thinking Rapidair for the garage/shop that is in the planning stages.
 

Gummi Bear

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Question for some of y’all that have installed a bunch of these.


What about using DOT truck air line instead of Pex? It should be UV stable, and is designed to be under air pressure.

Anyone ever install it in a shop?



My shop just has 100’ air hose on a reel, I have enough to drag it wherever I need. Shop is 40x40. I’d love to have air outlets. My next home will be outfitted with them at strategic locations, and near each door for airing up tires.



I plumbed my buddy’s shop in copper. It worked great for a decade or so, then he retired. I’d guess the new owner is probably still using them. I might do that again.



I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately...

Henry David Thoreau
 

junkyardwarrior

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last place I worked at plumbed the entire shop--from the compressor to everything, with pex

nothing but leaks, everywhere.

also, after they plumbed it and we moved into the new place, I was looking at the pex and it said max 160 psi at 80°F. That wasn't very encouraging. I was only there 6 months. Compressor would cycle about every 5 minutes if nobody was using it, because of all of the leaks in the connections, drops, basically everywhere there was a joint. Lastly, pex does not do well with UV light.

but based on everything else that the boss did with that "new" building, it was no surprise. Cheap cheap cheap and absolutely nothing was up to any code or osha guidelines. One of many reasons I left. 2 post lifts installed in just under 3" of concrete thickness, and installed improperly from the get-go. It was certainly not a safe place to work!

At home I used copper. It isn't really that expensive for a home shop. It can get expensive for a big shop which is why you'd ideally use the right stuff that is designed specifically for air. Nice thing about copper is that it also acts like a heat sink in that the hot air coming from the compressor will cool quickly, so if you design the lines correctly a lot of the moisture will mostly come out before it gets to the drops.
 

Firebrick43

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Question for some of y’all that have installed a bunch of these.


What about using DOT truck air line instead of Pex? It should be UV stable, and is designed to be under air pressure.

Anyone ever install it in a shop?



My shop just has 100’ air hose on a reel, I have enough to drag it wherever I need. Shop is 40x40. I’d love to have air outlets. My next home will be outfitted with them at strategic locations, and near each door for airing up tires.



I plumbed my buddy’s shop in copper. It worked great for a decade or so, then he retired. I’d guess the new owner is probably still using them. I might do that again.



I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately...

Henry David Thoreau

The plastic airlines are not that great. I can not so that they would be better or worse than pex but 10-12 years is common for them. Same with festo/Parker/smc industrial air lines with push lock fittings. 10-15 years and it starts getting brittle and leaking at the fittings. It drives me nuts having to pull so much line. Last place had enough of it and any new equipment had to have hardliners or they wouldn’t buy it except at joints and cable tracks.

As for leaks in pex, I am going guess it crimp pex as opposed to propex? I don’t see how it could leak so much unless the installer was a hack and not gauging and perform his crimps correctly.
 

sberry

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That stuff might be ok for home runs but when I got there would valve and change to metal, only need 2 connections on the pex line, one at each end.
My shop just has 100’ air hose on a reel, I have enough to drag it wherever I need. Shop is 40x40. I’d love to have air outlets. My next home will be outfitted with them at strategic locations, and near each door for airing up tires.
This is a bit what I was babbling about,,, you dont need more "outlets", they are no good without a hose, you need another hose or a reel.
 

Gummi Bear

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That stuff might be ok for home runs but when I got there would valve and change to metal, only need 2 connections on the pex line, one at each end.
This is a bit what I was babbling about,,, you dont need more "outlets", they are no good without a hose, you need another hose or a reel.


I agree.

The convenience will be in rolling up a 25’ hose, vs a much longer one. I do think it’d be super handy to have an outlet at the workbench.


I must admit tho, it’s really not terribly bothersome to roll up my hose since I got the reel. When I was looping it around the compressor, it was kind of a pain.


A lot of guys are transitioning over to battery operated tools. I still very much enjoy using my air tools.




I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately...

Henry David Thoreau
 

sberry

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I agree, there is something psychological about a reel if nothing else, it disciplines roll up. Before I got reels it was always on the floor under foot.
Also have 3 fixed, I can up with a special hanger scheme where they are hung up and not rolled up, its handy, no moving parts but they are screwed to the pipe and no connectors on the input end, only at the tool end as Stedlin eluded to above.
 
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PhantomEB

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I am all Copper. 3/4 along the main wall, 1/2 down the side and all drops. Still got to cross over at the back to do the other side wall. Still grab the 18’ long hose instead of the hose real.
 

jam0o0

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I use the black plastic semi truck air line in a larger industrial size with brass compression fittings. after 6 years i'm super happy with it. very easy to put together, way cheaper than the aluminum pipe systems. i'll be using it again.
 

sberry

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I got one down a boom I wish I could show better in a pic, maybe I try. But I am fine with manual mounted low, if you are mounting overhead a retractor is nice.
I wish I had another bracket as in pic 1, I made another similar though. Pic 2 is a good example of early work where I put in a hydrant just in case, I think I converted it to a t, went beyond, and did use a connector since it was there for free and I put a seasonal hose reel on it. I really need to get a full reel in one spot and hook on a 100 ft rubber and dont need anything else in that part of the building. I got a reel but its wrong, too short, can get buy and never did fix it.
Rest of the pics of hoist air. Simply hang in big loop, standard 25 ft out of a tall ceiling. In a shorted smaller might shorten the line a little but this not only reaches hoist but part way in to the adjacent bays. The hoses actually reach all 4 wheels, got to walk around 2 at a time but it reaches.
 

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sberry

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If I was to do the swingarms again might move the drops a little and be able to do without. I put them in on guestimation and joints at standard pipe length. It all works well enough there isnt a lot of incentive to change it. The spring swing in pic one works super so as to be the outside air when I am on the apron, the reach makes the geometry work well and I have another reel feeds thru a port outside to do tire air, blow offs etc.
 

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ducksface

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I have a 100ft reel mounted on a swivel, outside.
It reaches everywhere.
I was going to plumb the shop then decided to ask myself
Why?
I couldn't come up with a why.

A whip to mezz with me and need stored and be too short or Too long, when I just unreel what I need from a single source. No whip to store, nothing sitting in front of the wall coupler.

Of course if you're running multiple air tools at once. Things are different.

I have a 200ft run I might do so passers-through can check trailer tires etc.
Underground, I'll use pvc.
Shrapnel is the only worry about pvc. This'll be 2ft underground and all will be safe from damage and shrapnel.
 
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gearhead1

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I use the black plastic semi truck air line in a larger industrial size with brass compression fittings. after 6 years i'm super happy with it. very easy to put together, way cheaper than the aluminum pipe systems. i'll be using it again.

Do you remember a brand or model of the line?
 

jam0o0

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Do you remember a brand or model of the line?

I got the black nylon line from mcmaster I think. Or one of the air bag suspension companies. All the compression fittings are defiantly from mcmaster. Then just brass fittings to adapt to hose reals or whatever.
 

Charlie51

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I use a rubber hose that I coil up when I'm done. I meant to put an air system in the shop, and actually got a hose reel (probably Harbor Freight that my son wasn't using), but i never got around to installing it in the 30 years I've owned the place. And guess what? I'm moving on...
 

409425hp

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I used the Rapid air Kit as well.Installed it before they painted and had them prime and paint it.
 

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Hobby_Man22

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I'm still running air hose, three drops, two hose reels and a coil hose with a tool retract cable reel over the bench. I got the hose for free at the time, but I will eventually go to 1/2" M or maybe Maxline.

Tommy

I don't understand why more.people don't do this, but yet they will dangerously use pvc pipe.
 

rayra

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what's 'dangerous' about it? 3/4" Sched40 PVC - available at any hardware store - has a burst pressure rating of over 1500psi. 10x the rating of the pressure relief valve on my compressor. btw, Type M copper is about 4200psi and costs $1/'. About 4x the price of PVC, and even higher when you add in fittings.
The only other potential problem is UV exposure, put it in the wall or paint it. Big whoop.
I'm building out my garage shop in Jan-Feb, will be using a french cleat to hang 20LF of upper cabinets. And guess what's going in the gap between wallboard and cabinet bodies? electrical conduit and my PVC air plumbing.
And I don't leave my system pressurized when I'm not actively using it.

So where is this 'danger' that folks keeps declaring? Somebody that uses sched20, puts it in full sun, and mounts it where it can be banged into?
 

DocsMachine

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So where is this 'danger' that folks keeps declaring? Somebody that uses sched20, puts it in full sun, and mounts it where it can be banged into?

-To repeat what's been said ad nauseum, the issue is pressure cycling.

Continual use- that is, pressurizing and depressurizing, as you propose, and simple use of the system- that is, the pressure falls when using a tool, and rises again when you stop- flexes the tubing.

And the classic example of that is bending a paperclip until it breaks. Keep bending it and eventually it fatigues, and breaks at a value far lower than that of the original material.

Which is precisely what happens to PVC when used with compressed gasses. Yes, it'll work for you for a while- a year or two certainly. Five or six, probably. Ten or more? Unlikely.

It's not a question of IF, it's a question of WHEN. Eventually, it WILL fail, and at a value far, far lower than it's original rating. And when it does fail, it throws shrapnel- usually sharp ones.

And for those that think pieces of plastic are too light to do any damage, people have reported chunks of that 'shrapnel' embedded in boxes and cabinets thirty-some-odd feet away.

With all the superior products on the market today, it's simply stupid to keep using a substandard material. Max Line, Eastwood's push-to-lock, sweated copper, even as noted above, just rubber hoses and some tees would be better than PVC.

Doc.
 

MX15

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Jun 9, 2015
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Mixture of Air Brake Tubing and Copper with Push to Connect fittings and compression fittings.
 

Merch1

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Aug 28, 2014
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292
24 x 42 shop. Quincy on original pallet in purpose built insulated shed. 1/2 in flex line through wall to 1/2 in copper. Down to 2 water separators and one ‘ drop’ for the lathe. Back up to and along mezzanine floor to an old 50 ft hose reel I acquired long ago in some forgotten trade. It reaches every corner and with an added air hose I can reach the driveway and the street if I have to. I used most of the fittings and water separators in my fab shop for 18 years, no problems. Learned how to solder properly.
 

toyotadriver

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Dec 30, 2010
Messages
1,586
what's 'dangerous' about it? 3/4" Sched40 PVC - available at any hardware store - has a burst pressure rating of over 1500psi. 10x the rating of the pressure relief valve on my compressor. btw, Type M copper is about 4200psi and costs $1/'. About 4x the price of PVC, and even higher when you add in fittings.
The only other potential problem is UV exposure, put it in the wall or paint it. Big whoop.
I'm building out my garage shop in Jan-Feb, will be using a french cleat to hang 20LF of upper cabinets. And guess what's going in the gap between wallboard and cabinet bodies? electrical conduit and my PVC air plumbing.
And I don't leave my system pressurized when I'm not actively using it.

So where is this 'danger' that folks keeps declaring? Somebody that uses sched20, puts it in full sun, and mounts it where it can be banged into?




THE MAKERS OF PVC TELL YOU NOT TO USE IT FOR COMPRESSED GASES.

Good enough for me. If you choose to use it and have a failure, you are on your own.

I use copper now. I like how it helps condense moisture out. I used to have drops throughout the shop....then I installed a hose reel. I stopped using the drops completely and only used the reel. So, I installed two more reels for a total of three and have no more drops. I’ll probably add a drop with high flow fittings if I ever get some 3/4 inch air tools.

I LOVE my hose reels. Mounted on the ceiling they stay out of the way till needed and then coil themselves up once I’m done with them. I have two 50 ft reels.....diagonal from each other in the work bay and a 25 ft reel in area of the work benches.
 

gearhead1

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THE MAKERS OF PVC TELL YOU NOT TO USE IT FOR COMPRESSED GASES.

Good enough for me. If you choose to use it and have a failure, you are on your own.

Yep, exactly, the maker of the pipe made these videos. I thought they explained it really well why not to put air in PVC.



A company would make more money if they said to put air in it so they could sell more product. Think of it this way, they are turning down sales because they don’t want the risk.

I had never heard of the issues with using PVC pipe for air lines until after I joined Garage Journal many years ago. A long time ago the PVC pipe just gave the pressure rating so people bought it and used it as air lines. Now it says not for use with compressed air.

I can’t have that risk to me, let alone a family member.
 

gearhead1

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Oct 14, 2013
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In contrast, watch this video, fast forward to 3:30 to see how PEX fails.


Plain PEX will deteriorate from UV, but look what happens when it fails. For this reason, plain PEX is worth the risk, PVC is not. I only have the air compressor on when I’m around, so PEX would be ok for me.
 

fourjeepin

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Feb 12, 2011
Messages
3,653
Location
Atlanta, GA
I had pvc for number of years as I didn’t know better when I installed it. It failed but luckily didn’t throw any shrapnel. I replace it with pex. The pex was far easier to install and very inexpensive. I think I used 80 feet and only 5 feet are exposed to daylight and that is always indirect.
 
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