billconner
Well-known member
I wondered also when I saw drawing but don't know it was built like that and trust vlocci to have checked it out. There is nothing to suggest he is not diligent and thorough.
Builder built garage too short. What penalty?
- Thread starter vlocci
- Start date
Re-read post #27. He's already consulted with some form of engineer on this, and the footings were poured thick enough to negate the need for below grade frost walls. Lowering the floor would require a wide bulkhead around the entire interior, and some very substantial sawing and demo at the OH door openings. Not to mention, we don't know if the exterior grade allows for it
And, there's still all of the bedrock issues.
dave*99
Well-known member
Um, no. Look at the drawing.Why didn't you go out there yourself and measure it? I would have. You're stuck with it the way it is. Besides most shops are 1-2ft smaller anyways when built. There dimensions are outside dimensions.
Thanks for reposting that.Um, no. Look at the drawing.
Anyone know why there is 2' from top of footing to top of slab?
Frost protection, but in this scenario, they poured a thicker footing in place of the below grade portion of wall.
Relax
Well-known member
What he wrote in his post seems to pertain to lowering the ENTIRE floor, not just a small section. Maybe I'm mistaken, but it sounds like you are as well? Presumably, the blasting was done as the most efficient way to excavate 2000 sq ft of bedrock, but can't 100 sq ft be done with a jackhammer? That assumes the only issue with the height is fitting the custom lift, but at least that would be one less issue.
This! I am not a CE, I'm an ME, but architects are much more like artists than they are engineers. For a house or building (not a garage like OPs), they will draw a pretty picture, adding in visually appealing but complex features, which often complicates construction 100X vs a basic rectangle or box, but it will look ****, and then they let the CEs figure out how to build it. And if you let the architect get too creative, hold on to your checkbook!
And all these comments about how the OP should be out there measuring the concrete pour while it's happening? Yeah, that'd be ideal, but he has a job, and that's what he's paying someone else to do.
IMO, the OP needs to come up with an alternate method of storing the cars, come up with a $ value for this inconvenience, settle with whoever is at fault, and move on. Focus on how to store the cars.
It seems like the only other alternative is to start all over, which isn't much of an alternative.
Relax
Well-known member
I always thought the architects consulted with engineers during their design to ensure that it could be built within the customer's budget? I've never had to use one before, and if this isn't the case, I'm not sure I ever will.
dcg9381
Well-known member
I've been dealing with builders for years, two of them are good friends. We've seen "other" builders stretch to the point where they are rolling cash from one job to another to support their personal lifestyles and one particular builder did an immense amount of financial damage locally. He didn't pay his suppliers or contractors "between" jobs and that meant that owners got liens for work they paid for. Really good attorneys (with deep pocket clients) went after him. But I can tell you that it was an exercise in losing more money. He moved profits into primary residences of relatives, stuff like that.. Could that money be recovered? Yea, maybe.. With endless financial discovery. He ended up with massive judgements against him and like any red blooded American business, he defaulted, went "bankrupt" (whole new set of protections) and simply started a new business. A business judgement is very different than a personal judgment.
All of his equipment was leased or non-owned... All of his profit got put into protected class assets - like his personal home. On the "books" he just over-paid himself or his family, which is allowed and the business had no assets.
I respect the legal system and the advice of "consult" (note, I didn't say hire) an attorney - I agree with. If you can touch his "builders risk" policy - maybe - but in my state it's tough to get a business to pay out that runs cash flow month to month. You are 100% in the right to have him fix this, but the financial reality may be very different. I'm not sure how you get to that middle ground.
Lets say he could pay you out $150k? What would it cost to start another business name in the same industry? Less than $150k.
I think it's worth investigating. Where there is engineering, engineering is tied to inspection. There may be more liability here than just the GC.
quickfarms
Well-known member
Architects tend to be prima-donnas.
Many want to build there masterpieces regardless of the cost or owners wishes.
I have witnessed multiple times when the architect says he designs it and it is the engineers and surveyors job to build it.
the floor can not be lowered because of the driveway draining away from the garage. While it is possible to drain the driveway to the garage, the city may not allow this and it could have been changed during plan check.
based on the drawing it looks like the roof is a deck which is probably tied to the Finnish floor elevation of the house.
until the OP has the engineer reviewable of the plans and the surveyor perform a survey, as recommended by the lawyer we do not even know is there is a claim here
I have never seen a construction problem that was just one persons fault. There are engineers architects contractors subs suppliers and a whole bunch of other folks plus Mother Nature and over eager and over demanding owners that usually contributed to the screwup or who lawyers can at least claim contributed to the screwup. Construction litigation is therefore a deep black hole into which money is poured, likely to never be seen again.
I don't think I'm confused at all, other than by your post. Here's some major issue's I see with your approach:
- Whenever we showed up to pour footings on bedrock, the only thing the air hammer was good for was taking off any loose, high spots, and even that was laborious. There's no way blasting was cheaper than a hydraulic hammer on an excavator, and more than likely, the blasting cost several times more than running a hammer. It was the only realistic option.
- At 100 sq. feet, you wouldn't even cover the footprint of the car.
- How does the car get into the new pit that's 12"lower than the rest of the floor? A ramp? Now you're talking 400 sq. feet.
- The footings clearly encroach into the garage space by at least a foot or two, meaning they need to be covered with at least 6"of concrete, creating a wider bulkhead in the garage.
- With the newly created pit you're suggesting there's additional hydrostatic water issues that need to be addressed. The pit would be much like an elevator pit, which would require at minimum a floor drain, and more than likely a sump crock. Where doe's the sump pump discharge go? Where does the power come from?
- Does the design of the lift allow it to be recessed into the floor by 12"?
- How does the homeowner feel about displaying one of his prize vehicles when a third of it is below floor level?
I could probably go on, but that's enough to chew on for now I think...........
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CraigStu
Well-known member
I think that I would consult further w/ the lawyer the OP has already had dinner with. Unfortunately, I don't expect that will lead to a solution. I would also be very concerned that nearly any action against the builder will cause a lot of problems w/ the work that remains to be done as others have pointed out. Remember this is not just a garage, his home is also involved. Even trying to get him to cover the $50k for the lift is going to mean the builder will be trying, for the rest of the job, to short things anywhere and everywhere he can to get some of his $50k back. I have no idea what profit the builder would normally make on a job like this but, whatever that amount is, $50k has to be a significant part of it. As much as I hate to say it, and it would pi$$ me off no end if it were my problem, I'd concentrate on how to adapt to the new lower ceiling. I'd be calling the lift manufacturer to see how it can be modified to fit.
I say you compromise.
The contractor should pay for a new lift that will work to fit at least 2 of the 3 cars or maybe to modify the current lift to fit 2 cars. Then you should come up with a solution for the 3rd car. Another lift, maybe park it somewhere?
Reality is suing the GC probably will cause they to run for the hills and get you nowhere. Me, Id figure out another solution for the cars and compensation as you paid for 13ft but did not get 13ft walls. Like you said-cant go down or up at this point so your options are limited.
The contractor should pay for a new lift that will work to fit at least 2 of the 3 cars or maybe to modify the current lift to fit 2 cars. Then you should come up with a solution for the 3rd car. Another lift, maybe park it somewhere?
Reality is suing the GC probably will cause they to run for the hills and get you nowhere. Me, Id figure out another solution for the cars and compensation as you paid for 13ft but did not get 13ft walls. Like you said-cant go down or up at this point so your options are limited.
FredWanaker
Well-known member
The 257' elevation gets checked first to confirm that the floor is too low, and not the garage floor too high. Then the pea gravel comes out. the inner wall comes out, the floor gets jacked up 12" and a 12" steel beam gets anchored into the sides to support the new floor height. Then a new inner wall gets poured and new pea gravel brought in.
JOE.G
Well-known member
A little off topic, I am not sure I would like my vehicle suspension just hanging for months, I personally thing a Drive on type lift would look and be better for the vehicles, But obviously this is your set up and dream, I do hope that it gets worked out and you can be happy with the final out come.
FredWanaker
Well-known member
I always thought this would be how I would want my car storage to look...
cycle61
Well-known member
I would definitely paint the green and orange home depot pallet rack.
FredWanaker
Well-known member
pick a color 
rancherbill
Well-known member
There are some here that are suggesting to **** it up and accept a deficient job.
If you hired them to build a 2 storey house and they gave you a one story and an excuse that "gee we didn't notice it on the blue print". What would you do?
It's time to stop paying the draws until it's done right. Further talk to you lawyer if in any way they stop work. There are a ton of damages that you are sustaining.
If you hired them to build a 2 storey house and they gave you a one story and an excuse that "gee we didn't notice it on the blue print". What would you do?
It's time to stop paying the draws until it's done right. Further talk to you lawyer if in any way they stop work. There are a ton of damages that you are sustaining.
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58Yeoman
Well-known member
On a lighter note, call "Ask This Old House." Tommy can fix anything.
If you are willing to accept the mistake and continue with the build I would be looking for compensation for the price of the lift.
And if you could negotiate it you keep the lift and work with the manufacturer to see if it can be modified for 2 cars and you can rotate one on the floor as a display or purchase another lift.
Worse case scenario you have your 50k back to develop a new storage solution.
If you want to be generous you could have the contractor pay to modify the lift for 2 cars and purchase another lift of your choosing for the 3rd car.
And if you could negotiate it you keep the lift and work with the manufacturer to see if it can be modified for 2 cars and you can rotate one on the floor as a display or purchase another lift.
Worse case scenario you have your 50k back to develop a new storage solution.
If you want to be generous you could have the contractor pay to modify the lift for 2 cars and purchase another lift of your choosing for the 3rd car.
ZRX61
Well-known member
But not in a seismic area like California....
JRC3
Well-known member
And how do they compensate for the 2+ years of your life spent fighting and rebuilding and not enjoying your life, not being in the space you're probably making to be your last?
Hard to tell all the specifics but it sure seems like rebuilding the lift is best...If it will still suit your needs then why not enjoy those 2 years instead of wasting it on a fight that will stress and probably send you to the grave a month earlier? I think I'd also have to consider the waste of a potential rebuild, the waste of materials and equipment, and judging by the opening post the waste of injuries to people. Life is too short, don't waste it by being too stern.
Adaylate
Well-known member
Vlocci,
Is it possible to put a 13' high addition to the right of your garage? Cut an opening in the shared wall large enough so the toys could be displayed three high.
Yes, I'm aware of the rock and limited lot size......just throwin' it out there......
Good Luck!
Floyd
Is it possible to put a 13' high addition to the right of your garage? Cut an opening in the shared wall large enough so the toys could be displayed three high.
Yes, I'm aware of the rock and limited lot size......just throwin' it out there......
Good Luck!
Floyd
rancherbill
Well-known member
I had the same but different issues on my house and I get unhappy frequently over the issues that I just let go at the time.
Zeke
Well-known member
Oh hell yeah. We have racks like that from HD to Costco and there are some for cars as well. Don Long has one.
ZRX61
Well-known member
You are free to stand in the aisles at Costco during a 6.0, Let me now how it works out
slidehammer
Well-known member
That is in California. 7 miles from the San Andreas fault.
JoeMcGov
Well-known member
Now that the OP's original quandary has received 27 "solutions" it's time to move on.
What engine oil are your running in your 911's???
What engine oil are your running in your 911's???
ZRX61
Well-known member
About the same distance I'm from it.... That orange plastic fencing he has on the upper two levels isn't going to do ****.
Edit: Just measured it on Google Earth, I'm 6.3miles from it
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slidehammer
Well-known member
It depends on the quake. Yes, in a big one stuff is going to fall on the cars. It's a storage area in a workshop. That's how it goes.
OCD
Well-known member
You will think about it every time you are in the shop... It should be fix that part or it's free, but that is the extreme view point... It should be at least half price... This screw up isn't your fault, but you are the one who has to live with it!!
More pics please too!!
Half-fast eddie
Well-known member
You’re clueless.Why didn't you go out there yourself and measure it? I would have. You're stuck with it the way it is. Besides most shops are 1-2ft smaller anyways when built. There dimensions are outside dimensions.
If you were a gc building a house or garage for a client, even a normal typical garage … would you encourage the customer to be on site frequently checking your dimensions? No, yo7 would tell him to stat away, you’re paying a foreman to make sure everything is right. And then you would be posting here about the nosy customer not trusting you to do what you do best.
As far as “outside dimensions” … when the professionally drawn plans show inside dimension, that’s what the finished product is supposed to be. I guess you would sell a customer a 16’ x 20’ deck on the back of the house, and then try to get them to accept a finished product 2 ft smaller.
Technologyteacher
Well-known member
On the fifth page and no one has asked for pics of the contractors wife??? Bang his wife
Half-fast eddie
Well-known member
Not me ... I want a space large enough that i could get into vehicle and drive away … no waiting for 3 layers of cars to be moved so i can get to the one on top.
And that’s what i have … one car in the garage and one in the driveway.
ZRX61
Well-known member
Friend of mine had about 30 Kawasaki's in his garage when the Northridge quake hit. They were packed in there so tight there was about 1/4in between the alternator cover on one & the ignition cover on the next. None of them fell off the main stands, but they did wander about a bit. He said there "wasn't enough room for any of them to fall over"
I'd just sold three bikes & was waiting for 4 others to arrive that week. Garage was bikeless.
rburke65
Well-known member
Go after for what you paid! That’s what HIS insurance is for.
HoosierMark
Well-known member
Switch from 3 tall to double wide 2 tall lift, Then simply put stuff under extra bay. Just settle for cash for their mistake. It sounds like there definitely will be a need for extra space so maybe go for three double wide lifts courtesy of builder.