Stuart in MN
Well-known member
I was just thinking of this thread, after I saw this Citroen ambulance for sale: http://bringatrailer.com/2013/02/12/1975-citroen-ds-ambulance/
Citrogarage
- Thread starter lucajack2cv
- Start date
Sunbimmer
Well-known member
Welcome back Luca !!
WOW man
you have been busy 
I am very glad you're back with those major updates, thanks for sharing.
WOW man
you have been busy I am very glad you're back with those major updates, thanks for sharing.
Omphaloskeptic
Well-known member
Grande! Mi piace davvero.
The hard work never stops, keep it up Luca.
OP
lucajack2cv
Well-known member
Thanks everybody, Here I'm back with the promised update about the big old
stabble (7.00*26.00 meters) and the terribly expensive works necessary to turn it into a real Citrogarage atelier. The possiblitity to use in complete safety this big room is still far in november 2012, this will be the second winter that vehicles have to accommodate outdoor and a really bad surprise is coming on for Cristhmas.
The fall of a large piece of plaster from the ceiling leads to further testing of the slab that is quite curved (we noted the horizontal crack in front), especially in a couple of places including one next to south door where the plaster falled. A survey is imposed:
First, the break will help you understand the nature of the floor is brick and concrete, and especially of the first types to use precast concrete elements and hollow flat blocks, a system popular in Italy since the post-war recostruction (a concrete substitute of wood or iron structures) and called "Solai Varese" originally built by SIPC haedquartered near Milano: http://www.sipcsolaivarese.it/AZ_storia.htm.
Here we have a section of a "Solaio Varese" type:
Between a joist and the next joist, the highest hollow flat blocks high serve as formwork for the composite casting while the lower one carry only the plaster which allows to obtain a smooth flat ceiling. The system is an evolution of a wooden floor and is certainly pejorative than the arches and vaults of which this old stable (probbly built in tha last decades of XVII century) was originally equipped (in the walls could be distinguished bricks chiselled in the points where the arcs started) but on the other hand, if you want to raise the ceiling, hte arcs demolition prevailed and this kind of floor was chosen. Presumably in 1961, judging from the date of a newspaper clipping used to fill a hole. In this detail is better described the joist with the position of the iron bars:
I do not know exactly what went wrong with this floor but in some places the precast joists have not passed the test of time. Maybe joists were undersized since the beginning (compared to the load of the barn in the most intense years of operating the farm) or perhaps the rain infiltration from the roof (or the subsequent frost) in the successive years abandonment or the corrosive moisture condensation exhaled by livestock crammed in the stable.. or allthese elements together.. the fact is that the irons lower -rusting superficially- inflated and broke the concrete joist and -leaning more- crumbled in some points the concrete until the joist find a new balance:
Balance totally unsatisfactory, unfortunately. In a couple of points the soul of the beam has some cracks.
Specific materials called "geomalte" are now available to recover the deteriorated concrete (almost all highway viaducts made in the 60 and 70 are the subject of such interventions) they're a mix of cement and synthetic minerals that convert rust, have a little pick-zero and three-dimensional internal armor (a kind of hair-cat) with which you can repair any concrete product. But not in any condition. To Rebuild -with care- the flap of the joist may be sufficient where it is to hold only the hollow flat blocks below, but another issue is to restore the functionality of the joists more deteriorated. In these cases we will choose finally to support each one a beam in appropriately sized iron, cement bagging all the space between the two elements and above the beam. On the opposite side by assisting the flap is reconstructed with the geomalta.
It is worth to take advantage of the opportunity to place a big iron ring, integral with the structure, make it possible to hook a chain for lifting engines, frames or other car elements in perfect security..
stabble (7.00*26.00 meters) and the terribly expensive works necessary to turn it into a real Citrogarage atelier. The possiblitity to use in complete safety this big room is still far in november 2012, this will be the second winter that vehicles have to accommodate outdoor and a really bad surprise is coming on for Cristhmas.
The fall of a large piece of plaster from the ceiling leads to further testing of the slab that is quite curved (we noted the horizontal crack in front), especially in a couple of places including one next to south door where the plaster falled. A survey is imposed:
First, the break will help you understand the nature of the floor is brick and concrete, and especially of the first types to use precast concrete elements and hollow flat blocks, a system popular in Italy since the post-war recostruction (a concrete substitute of wood or iron structures) and called "Solai Varese" originally built by SIPC haedquartered near Milano: http://www.sipcsolaivarese.it/AZ_storia.htm.
Here we have a section of a "Solaio Varese" type:
Between a joist and the next joist, the highest hollow flat blocks high serve as formwork for the composite casting while the lower one carry only the plaster which allows to obtain a smooth flat ceiling. The system is an evolution of a wooden floor and is certainly pejorative than the arches and vaults of which this old stable (probbly built in tha last decades of XVII century) was originally equipped (in the walls could be distinguished bricks chiselled in the points where the arcs started) but on the other hand, if you want to raise the ceiling, hte arcs demolition prevailed and this kind of floor was chosen. Presumably in 1961, judging from the date of a newspaper clipping used to fill a hole. In this detail is better described the joist with the position of the iron bars:
I do not know exactly what went wrong with this floor but in some places the precast joists have not passed the test of time. Maybe joists were undersized since the beginning (compared to the load of the barn in the most intense years of operating the farm) or perhaps the rain infiltration from the roof (or the subsequent frost) in the successive years abandonment or the corrosive moisture condensation exhaled by livestock crammed in the stable.. or allthese elements together.. the fact is that the irons lower -rusting superficially- inflated and broke the concrete joist and -leaning more- crumbled in some points the concrete until the joist find a new balance:
Balance totally unsatisfactory, unfortunately. In a couple of points the soul of the beam has some cracks.
Specific materials called "geomalte" are now available to recover the deteriorated concrete (almost all highway viaducts made in the 60 and 70 are the subject of such interventions) they're a mix of cement and synthetic minerals that convert rust, have a little pick-zero and three-dimensional internal armor (a kind of hair-cat) with which you can repair any concrete product. But not in any condition. To Rebuild -with care- the flap of the joist may be sufficient where it is to hold only the hollow flat blocks below, but another issue is to restore the functionality of the joists more deteriorated. In these cases we will choose finally to support each one a beam in appropriately sized iron, cement bagging all the space between the two elements and above the beam. On the opposite side by assisting the flap is reconstructed with the geomalta.
It is worth to take advantage of the opportunity to place a big iron ring, integral with the structure, make it possible to hook a chain for lifting engines, frames or other car elements in perfect security..
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OP
lucajack2cv
Well-known member
Repositioned hollow flat blocks, plastered, here is the protruding ring and the room find back its comfortable appearance..
successive washing and cleaning one after another.. when you finally get to the painting is a great pleasure:
Accessories include survivors of the previous function of the room, as this metal basket hay-holder for the donkey
successive washing and cleaning one after another.. when you finally get to the painting is a great pleasure:
Accessories include survivors of the previous function of the room, as this metal basket hay-holder for the donkey
OP
lucajack2cv
Well-known member
Finally here is a foreshadowing of the industrial floor that will be in strong wooden blocks bolted each other and positioned (almost) flat with metal blades. These elements comes from an old factory, probably from the '30ties. To clean and to put them in right place is job that will engage next months.. An hard test for the back of the working man (me) but the wood charm is great and also gives insulation and comfort enduring for the next centuries..
OP
lucajack2cv
Well-known member
Small update on the development of the technique of laying the wood floor: Once cleaned the wooden block from decades of grease and sludge, it is operated with a cart modified to spare as much as possible my back. Two metal blades bolted to the ends of the bottom make it easy to obtain a right plan, that still has to be completed using a little trowel of sand and cement in the corners that rickety. Drying quickly, cement turns into a perfect thickness. A final sanding should ensure interlocking of the wood blocks, over time and with repeated passages, the complete clogging of the joints between an element and the other and fix them permanently..
Well, I would say that the first 25 square meters are acceptable... Refined the technique, we just have to focus on the remaining two hundred and fifty!
Well, I would say that the first 25 square meters are acceptable... Refined the technique, we just have to focus on the remaining two hundred and fifty!Hello Luca
Your thread is astonishing. In Italy you seem still to find old beautiful crafted stuff for renovating houses. In Switzerland the "Shabby Chic Hunters" took all away:-(
Be careful with the wooden floor, ensure that there is enough space to the walls. Otherwise it would be possible that floor pushes the walls away, when it extends.
Ciao Albert
Your thread is astonishing. In Italy you seem still to find old beautiful crafted stuff for renovating houses. In Switzerland the "Shabby Chic Hunters" took all away:-(
Be careful with the wooden floor, ensure that there is enough space to the walls. Otherwise it would be possible that floor pushes the walls away, when it extends.
Ciao Albert
Lippyp
Well-known member
Yep and in the UK you pay a fortune for anything old and architectural, that floor would cost you thousands here. Nice job!
I guess the upper floor is a precursor of the concrete beam and block used today in many industrial buildings and indeed in my house in France.
I guess the upper floor is a precursor of the concrete beam and block used today in many industrial buildings and indeed in my house in France.
OP
lucajack2cv
Well-known member
Fortunately I had that wood floor for free (except for transport..) at the time that old factory was demolished. The blocks are made of oak, very generous section, bolted to blocks of 40x80 centimeters with two metal rods and threaded nuts 32 (!) able to compensate any wood torsion or movement.
The proportions "railway-style" of the blocks and their almost century-old aging should wards off by bulges due to humidity, anyway the wood will remain a few inches away from the walls and this space will be filled with sand.
I take this opportunity to document the analogue work on the ground floor of the house that were also recently undergone restoration. A first glimpse of the ground had already had at the time of the restoration of the fireplace in the old kitchen but this time we will go definitely deeper.. So deep to find the ancestral Genius Loci .. So deep to touch the level that most probably represents the first human settlement on this site or at least the oldest part of the complex of buildings that now comprises this large farmhouse today called Citrogarage.
Under the tiles grit '50-'60 appears a thin sheet of tar paper and immediately we find the previous terracotta tiles we already knew:
Here it is, in all its worn completeness:
Below that's layer of cobbles and foundry waste (here called in slag maciafèr ) lying at time with insulating function:
Off the floor, away maciafèr .. 25-30 cm e si tocca nuovamente qualcosa di solido.. 25-30 cm and touched something solid again:
8O An earlier brick floor emerges, confirming once again a plan-of-campaign of the general area much lowes than today: the superficial aquifer emerged almost everywhere, the landscape was full of ponds and swamps.. During the past centuries mosquitoes and humidity should be a terrible torment!
In the entrance, foundations are more superficial (perhaps this part of the house is a later extension):
The removal of the sink brings to light the remains of a roller decoration..
If anyone knows this technique of mural painting to turn up, I love it! Keep an eye also 15x15 tiles of the coating, we'll talk about it..
The proportions "railway-style" of the blocks and their almost century-old aging should wards off by bulges due to humidity, anyway the wood will remain a few inches away from the walls and this space will be filled with sand.
I take this opportunity to document the analogue work on the ground floor of the house that were also recently undergone restoration. A first glimpse of the ground had already had at the time of the restoration of the fireplace in the old kitchen but this time we will go definitely deeper.. So deep to find the ancestral Genius Loci .. So deep to touch the level that most probably represents the first human settlement on this site or at least the oldest part of the complex of buildings that now comprises this large farmhouse today called Citrogarage.
Under the tiles grit '50-'60 appears a thin sheet of tar paper and immediately we find the previous terracotta tiles we already knew:
Here it is, in all its worn completeness:
Below that's layer of cobbles and foundry waste (here called in slag maciafèr ) lying at time with insulating function:
Off the floor, away maciafèr .. 25-30 cm e si tocca nuovamente qualcosa di solido.. 25-30 cm and touched something solid again:
8O An earlier brick floor emerges, confirming once again a plan-of-campaign of the general area much lowes than today: the superficial aquifer emerged almost everywhere, the landscape was full of ponds and swamps.. During the past centuries mosquitoes and humidity should be a terrible torment!
In the entrance, foundations are more superficial (perhaps this part of the house is a later extension):
The removal of the sink brings to light the remains of a roller decoration..
If anyone knows this technique of mural painting to turn up, I love it! Keep an eye also 15x15 tiles of the coating, we'll talk about it..
OP
lucajack2cv
Well-known member
Back to dig: the second terracotta floor was removed and tiles kept with the first ones(the grit tiles were in poor condition and did not want to put them back, I have not kept them) below it emerged some small trace of a rough cobblestones (which brings to mind the a space originally external, perhaps in front of the original stable that were accessed by the opening arc whose center is now the door) but for the most part .. virgin land, originating muddy deposits rather than cultivate land. As we proceeded in the stable, formation of a concrete wall against the original foundations in large stones and then complete the excavation of earth and filling with dry and draining material (cobbles and big gravel):
Clubber
Well-known member
I just found GJ this week and this thread today. I must say how truly impressed I am with your work and passion. I am a blessed man with my home and family and my shop I see you are as well. Thanks for posting, I look forward to reading and seeing more from you. I love that Garage Journal brings people from all over the world to share a common interest.
OP
lucajack2cv
Well-known member
Meanwhile I proceede to a general inventory of the floors of yesteryear stacked in the yard to assess quantity, type and condition. The colored cementine tiles seem to me the best solution for the environment (and strong enough for a ground floor) It seems that something be able to put together a harmonious result ..
OP
lucajack2cv
Well-known member
The paving of the residential room is pre-operative: the selection of tiles is finished, first dispositive hypothesis begin..
The hall of honor will receive a wooden floor, for now we limit ourselves to drown in the final screed laths chestnut ..
.. while the small entry will be "extended" with the optical effect of hexagonal tricolor cementine tiles.. I think they were just born to pave specifically the corridors and landings.. To scrape and sand the tiles we're all able, but I preferred to entrust my precious builder of confidence to lay the tiles. For the large kitchen instead.. in homage to the medieval-style in vogue at the time of spread of these concrete floors (1900-1930).. a large chessboard with a wide perimeter band to retrieve the squireness of the room:
The entrance is complete with the background door of the living room. A "victorian" combination is not it?
..while in the kitchen the diagonal moves ..
.. embellished in the center with an ancient newgotic decoration!
In front of the boiler plate I added a stone to save the floor from ash and embers:
.. and I do not remember if I already posted the decorative plate that enhances the fireplace area: a blacksmith (Mr. Vattasso Francesco) active in my hometown in early ** Century, recovered before the destruction of the garage gate where it was implanted:
The hall of honor will receive a wooden floor, for now we limit ourselves to drown in the final screed laths chestnut ..
.. while the small entry will be "extended" with the optical effect of hexagonal tricolor cementine tiles.. I think they were just born to pave specifically the corridors and landings.. To scrape and sand the tiles we're all able, but I preferred to entrust my precious builder of confidence to lay the tiles. For the large kitchen instead.. in homage to the medieval-style in vogue at the time of spread of these concrete floors (1900-1930).. a large chessboard with a wide perimeter band to retrieve the squireness of the room:
The entrance is complete with the background door of the living room. A "victorian" combination is not it?
..while in the kitchen the diagonal moves ..
.. embellished in the center with an ancient newgotic decoration!
In front of the boiler plate I added a stone to save the floor from ash and embers:
.. and I do not remember if I already posted the decorative plate that enhances the fireplace area: a blacksmith (Mr. Vattasso Francesco) active in my hometown in early ** Century, recovered before the destruction of the garage gate where it was implanted:
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OP
lucajack2cv
Well-known member
The Torino-Savona railway is less than 5 meters from home, unfortunately the train doesn't stop at Citrogarage but it runs at 80 km/h facilitating the awakening at 6.00 am! However, I must say that it is not a terrible presence, made pleasent and more "charmante" by the local train Museum we've visited during our Citraduno meeting in 2010..
http://www.2cvclubitalia.com/public/smf/index.php?topic=5896.msg197510#msg197510
Back to my floors, I had the idea to use a remnant of beautiful decorated tiles to make the top of a table or ..why not a built-in kitchen? Should be enough..
In the sides, cementine are unfinished, can not be left exposed. Also must form a small concrete floor that may be surrounded by a metal bracket .. Something like this:
Better take the opportunity to put a little 'order in the old pipes before they give way at work just finished ..
Now the kitchen has set out on the path of progress in hyper-drive, adieu bon voieux charm d'antàn..
Zeke
Well-known member
That is a huge transformation! Built like Rome.
OP
lucajack2cv
Well-known member
A functional middle shelf and a new sink are indispensable for modern domestic needs. It should not be difficult to get something in the backyard...
Said-done. It only remains to solve the problem of the coating. Of white glazed tiles 15x15 I have not saved much, a real shame because (while-available and affordable nowaday) the new ones provide little more than a distant resemblance to the original (1930-1950) ceramics "Bell" or "San Giorgio" (historical national manufacturers located in Emilia region) whose glazed surface is pleasantly undulating.. but most are no longer available special pieces for the edges "in bird's beak" nor the elegant black list ..
Also this time the luck smiles on me and a friend allows me to recover from a dilapidated building a sufficient number of tiles "original fifthies"! Long and dusty operations will be necessary to clean them up:
The black list will touch instead buy it again. . Or better to buy a whole box of skirting glossy black and trim it the right height (2.5 cm). Thanks to the rounded edge of the baseboard out also the two beaks owl needed:
Cooker "Fratelli Onofri" manufactured, an autarchic Sand-Soda-Soap hanging ceramic container and "Yuman" refrigerator of my grandmother complete the work station of the modern housewife
Said-done. It only remains to solve the problem of the coating. Of white glazed tiles 15x15 I have not saved much, a real shame because (while-available and affordable nowaday) the new ones provide little more than a distant resemblance to the original (1930-1950) ceramics "Bell" or "San Giorgio" (historical national manufacturers located in Emilia region) whose glazed surface is pleasantly undulating.. but most are no longer available special pieces for the edges "in bird's beak" nor the elegant black list ..
Also this time the luck smiles on me and a friend allows me to recover from a dilapidated building a sufficient number of tiles "original fifthies"! Long and dusty operations will be necessary to clean them up:
The black list will touch instead buy it again. . Or better to buy a whole box of skirting glossy black and trim it the right height (2.5 cm). Thanks to the rounded edge of the baseboard out also the two beaks owl needed:
Cooker "Fratelli Onofri" manufactured, an autarchic Sand-Soda-Soap hanging ceramic container and "Yuman" refrigerator of my grandmother complete the work station of the modern housewife
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Grizz1963
Well-known member
Luca, sei un genio assoluto il mio amico. Mi sento come un bambino nella vostra azienda.
Grazie per l'ispirazione.
Grazie per l'ispirazione.
slik560
Well-known member
I just went through all of this. The amount of work involved and the techniques you used for the yard / driveway stone evoked ancient Rome. My back ached from simply looking at the photos.
..and the tile work! DaVinci would be proud!!! Bella!!
..and the tile work! DaVinci would be proud!!! Bella!!
Woogeroo
Well-known member
Questo è un progetto meraviglioso. Mi piace vedere e di leggere Luca aggiornamenti.
Tradotto in italiano da Google Translate.
-W
Tradotto in italiano da Google Translate.
-W
ambenz
Well-known member
Anything I say can't begin to convey my true admiration for the sweat equity you are putting into restoring back to original your property.
It's takes a couple months to tear it down and build new but to restore, it takes courage, guts and smarts! Your progress sure make us all better understand how things were done in the past and why they lasted!
I have been following this thread and everything you do is amazing...you sure have a passion and it shows in your work!
It's takes a couple months to tear it down and build new but to restore, it takes courage, guts and smarts! Your progress sure make us all better understand how things were done in the past and why they lasted!
I have been following this thread and everything you do is amazing...you sure have a passion and it shows in your work!
magnusk750
Well-known member
Amazing work as usual. About the wooden floor in the workshop, will you be welding there also, or have a separate space for such work?
OP
lucajack2cv
Well-known member
Yes Magnus I have separate place for dirty and flaming works: my intention is in fact to store in this dry, clean, healthy and charming room restored vehicles, or unrestored ones waiting to fix it, with the hope to find both not in worse conditions ten years after. A garage, in short A little new involved also the workshop: the arrival of an unexpected gift, a tool that jumps to the top of the list of the Citrogarage obsolete equipment and waits for a proper application:
The plate of the manufacturer, Adolfo Scala, with dual headquarters in the city symbol of the science and technology of the future (in XIX century)..
Finally, traces of rudimentary experiments in order to adapt a modern electric motor to the rollers of the original belt transmission. I'll query the genius of Tesla in a spiritualist seance for some advice..
I think we all agree.
What a journey!!! I must say, I enjoyed each and every second I spent viewing/reading your story. I learned A LOT as well and that always pleases! Good work and keep it up. I loved everything about it. Thanks for sharing your world with us!
magnusk750
Well-known member
That camelback drill press is a beauty. My cousin have one in the shop on farm, that our grandfather bought used in the 1950s, probably it's prewar. Cousin says I can have it the same day he finds a modern one that suits his needs better. I'm waiting!
bunks-tj
Well-known member
seriously amazing
155'Ringman
Well-known member
Just fantastic.
The whole building is in such an untouched original state and it is so lucky that it got such a hard working and talented restorer as you as an owner.
The whole building is in such an untouched original state and it is so lucky that it got such a hard working and talented restorer as you as an owner.
4xdog
Well-known member
What a geat journey you're letting us accompany you on, Luca. Grazie mille!
Your area of Cuneo looks familiar. I've been "adopted" into the family of my Franco-Italiano best friends, who are originally from Dronero, and I can almost taste the vitello tonnato at the Cavallo Bianco there...
Keep us updated, please.
Your area of Cuneo looks familiar. I've been "adopted" into the family of my Franco-Italiano best friends, who are originally from Dronero, and I can almost taste the vitello tonnato at the Cavallo Bianco there...
Keep us updated, please.
Lippyp
Well-known member
You need a proper line shaft setup to power the drill press and then you could power it with a 2cv engine outside!
bidouchon
Active member
i don't know how to say it in english but: ça valait la peine d'attendre!
great job ,i'm amazed each time i see that thread by you imagination.
great job ,i'm amazed each time i see that thread by you imagination.
4takter
Member
Wow Luca, what a great achievement and what a great place you have/made!
I loved reading the way you've preserved so much old stuff and the detailed way in which you have documented it here!
I loved reading the way you've preserved so much old stuff and the detailed way in which you have documented it here!
bazzateer
Well-known member
I'd almost forgotten this thread - even more amazing than before!
seriebil.dk
Member
Welcome back, and what a step forward you have made. Great work with the floors and the workshop. I think your beam has suffered from moisure and agressive fumles in the old stabble.
I'm in the proces of rebuilding 30 m3 of old barn roofing, were the iron has rusted away, due to Water from leaking Roof and stabels below. One section came down just by the touch of a small hammer.
Hard work, as i'm pulling it down, putting in new I-beams, and making the brick work over again...
Keep it up, inspirering, Big time.
I'm in the proces of rebuilding 30 m3 of old barn roofing, were the iron has rusted away, due to Water from leaking Roof and stabels below. One section came down just by the touch of a small hammer.
Hard work, as i'm pulling it down, putting in new I-beams, and making the brick work over again...
Keep it up, inspirering, Big time.