Craftsman bashing

[Codejack]

I have a difficult time accepting the blame of society for Sears.

At one point Sears was being sued for mis-representing tools as being "Made in U.S.A." but with either many parts being made elsewhere or not at all but cleverly skirting the rules. They refused to say, under oath, how many C-man tools were made in America. And, subsequently, pulled tools from the shelves and blacked out anything that said Made in America. However, a judge tossed it out because, at the time, there was an estimated 40 million people owning C-man tools and a suit of that size would be "a nightmare to manage."

That's where society failed. Justice was denied out of convenience.

That's exactly the attitude that I was criticizing.

 

[itylerstewart]

Codejack, sounds like you have a sister

 

[7avalon7]

Just for the sake of comparison, I bought a 1/2" flex head (44816 A-AE) today. Here is a comparison against my friends US made VVQ.

US on top, Chinese on the bottom. The finish and machining is far better, IMO

I'm agree with you 100%. I have both the 3/8" and 1/2" flex head ratchets (A-AF I believe), and the China made ratchets are far better quality than their USA counterparts. The machining is smoother, even length on both sides and the ratchet mechanism works better. I've put the China 3/8" flex head through the paces and it's held up great. While I'm not a fan of anything Craftsman that is made overseas, some of the stuff is light years better quality than the USA versions..

Perfect time for the review and thank you!

I think I need one now - not really but I am always attracted to shiny things

 

[Brick Axelrod]

Do you have numbers to back this statement up? I understand if it is just your personal perception but how do you prove the quality degradation without any numbers to support your thesis?

I don't have numbers but when I was younger and buying lots of Craftsman tools in the late 80,s and 90's I know the ratchets seemed much better. The wrenches didn't seem to spread under torque like the ones today. I do see your point though, it's my opinion verses actual manufacturing data, steel specs, and so on

 

[sberry]

The ratchet from 80's and 90's is no better than today, last good one was pre 80.

 

[Yankee]

Well, for one thing, there are expectations:

People who buy (or bought) Sears and Craftsman products did so in the expectation that they were getting quality merchandise, and they were paying a premium.

People who buy Harbor Freight are not expecting anything. They are cheap tools, so if they break, they don't get too upset.

$10 for a socket set including a ratchet isn't exactly premium pricing...

As stated many times in this thread, Craftsman is pretty much the lowest price for tools... especially the tool sets.

 

[Yankee]

I personally think Craftsman ruined themselves with trying to continue their low pricing that they have had for years. When they came out with the Professional line, it didn't sell. I'm sure it was due to "I'm not paying that much for a Craftsman (fill tool in the blank)"

The Craftsman full polish wrenches (especially the Craftsman Industrial) were a steal compared to other equal quality manufactures.

I don't know how many times on this site that I've seen comments like that....

 

[Codejack]

$10 for a socket set including a ratchet isn't exactly premium pricing...

"Expectation."

How many people know how much Snap On tools cost?

 

[Yankee]

My point is if anybody did any price checking would know that $10 for a socket set is pretty cheap (Lowes, HomeDepot, Menards, etc)

I don't disagree that the "expectation" was that it's a high quality tool, I disagree that at $10 they think they are paying a premium....

 

[Codejack]

My point is if anybody did any price checking would know that $10 for a socket set is pretty cheap (Lowes, HomeDepot, Menards, etc)

I don't disagree that the "expectation" was that it's a high quality tool, I disagree that at $10 they think they are paying a premium....

To be fair, I don't go in to Sears much

 

[Yankee]

"Expectation."

How many people know how much Snap On tools cost?

Personally I think most people's expectations are that they expect Snap On quality, but since its Craftsman, they are only willing to pay HF prices....

 

[-Brent-]

That's where society failed. Justice was denied out of convenience.

That's exactly the attitude that I was criticizing.

Okay, I get that. I was of the thought that society was represented by the class-action side. But I see your point, for sure.

 

[JazzBlueRT]

Don't get me wrong. I am a fan of Costco, have been a member for over 30 years and admire their business model.
The issue is different expectations. Many people walk into Sears expecting it to be like it used to be 20 years ago and are disappointed when it isn't. Others walk into Harbor Freight and are pleasantly surprised at the range and quality of the merchandise.
Meanwhile Costco charges $60 bucks to walk through the door and expects their customers to dispose of their shipping waste, yet people are thrilled to shop there. If Walmart did the same there would be rioting in the streets.

Different expectations.

Walmart did, it's called Sams Club.

 

[JazzBlueRT]

I'm agree with you 100%. I have both the 3/8" and 1/2" flex head ratchets (A-AF I believe), and the China made ratchets are far better quality than their USA counterparts. The machining is smoother, even length on both sides and the ratchet mechanism works better. I've put the China 3/8" flex head through the paces and it's held up great. While I'm not a fan of anything Craftsman that is made overseas, some of the stuff is light years better quality than the USA versions. Torx sockets, hex sockets, impact sockets and ratchets come to mind. I own both versions and the China is far better quality.

Damn near all of the wrenches, ratcheting wrenches and pliers are considerably worse. My USA and China sockets have held up great, so I don't notice much of a difference. The only thing they seem to have got wrong was the wrenches. Lobster claw open ends, the metal has a tendency to spread... they're really bad.

Are those the full polished or RP wrenches that were spreading. I am probably the only person in the world who likes the RP wenches.

 

[JazzBlueRT]

I dunno, I've heard a lot of articulate Sears bashing here. Lots of good reasons.

I've got dozens of Sears stories, have shared a few already, no more. I got over Sears years ago and moved on. Lately I've picked up some real bargains due to SYW: Nupla deadblow hammers, thread reformers, bunch of Lisle stuff, etc. all Craftsman branded USA except for a German Knipex Pliers Wrench and a Florida Pneumatic air drill made in Taiwan. All crazy-good deals, half off or more. But I'm done. And soon, so will be Sears.

I still think we need a sub-forum to **** up all the Sears angst. Move this thread there, too.

You will be right back there in November when the SYW deals come out for Black Friday

 

[JazzBlueRT]

That's where society failed. Justice was denied out of convenience.

That's exactly the attitude that I was criticizing.

Society won because the lawyers were denied a multi-million dollar payout at the expense of the consumers.

The only people who benefit from class action lawsuits are the lawyers.

 

[928'er]

Walmart did, it's called Sams Club.

Hmmm.... Sounds familiar (see post #140).

 

[Codejack]

Society won because the lawyers were denied a multi-million dollar payout at the expense of the consumers.

The only people who benefit from class action lawsuits are the lawyers.

Craftsman quality went to **** and they moved their production overseas; we wound up with inferior tools and fewer jobs.

Some "win."

 

[skruft]

My own view from personal experience over a long time is that most Craftsman hand tools and stationary tools are good enough (exceptions: 3/8 ratchet and the original old black "Professional" screwdrivers) but their portable electric tools are quite poor and fail in light service. Their vacuums work but are noisy. I have little or no experience with their air tools.

My funny Craftsman story: I knew a very good boat carpenter whose tools were all the very finest name brands except that he had a big old Craftsman drill. I asked why he had it. He pointed out that it is common on boats to use large diameter hole saws. If they bind in the hole, a powerful drill can kick back and cause injury. The Craftsman would instead stall out, so it was a safety matter.

 

[Codejack]

My funny Craftsman story: I knew a very good boat carpenter whose tools were all the very finest name brands except that he had a big old Craftsman drill. I asked why he had it. He pointed out that it is common on boats to use large diameter hole saws. If they bind in the hole, a powerful drill can kick back and cause injury. The Craftsman would instead stall out, so it was a safety matter.

Ah, I had a similar experience when I used to work in IT; someone was trying to hack our web server, but it ran Windows, so it crashed whenever they tried

We came in every morning for a week trying to figure out why the web server was down.

 

[PugetDude]

Craftsman quality went to **** and they moved their production overseas; we wound up with inferior tools and fewer jobs.

Some "win."

Their suppliers moved production overseas.
Sears doesn't manufacture anything.

Production went offshore to meet consumer price demands.
High labor costs=higher prices=fewer jobs.

Sears did a really poor job managing products and quality; they rested on their laurels and ignored market realities when they should have been laser-focused on maintaining quality and market share.

 

[-Brent-]

Sears did a really poor job managing products and quality; they rested on their laurels and ignored market realities when they should have been laser-focused on maintaining quality and market share.

Well said.

 

[6PTsocket]

Their suppliers moved production overseas.
Sears doesn't manufacture anything.

Production went offshore to meet consumer price demands.
High labor costs=higher prices=fewer jobs.

Sears did a really poor job managing products and quality; they rested on their laurels and ignored market realities when they should have been laser-focused on maintaining quality and market share.

Add an unfriendly business environment to the high cost of domestic production. Taxes and and over regulation have done at least as much damage as high labor costs. Govt. agencies were tripping over each other to create new rules.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[dolfans]

I think it is a shame the shape Sears is in now. I remember when i was a kid the Sears store in town was a catalog ordering store that had appliances and tires. Now we have Amazon to places orders. I wonder if Sears could some how get back into that and make it

 

[Gmonkee]

Eddie will sell the name 'Sears' as his last hurrah after even the dust that settled was sold.
Then maybe Sears can become a viable name to build a retail entity under again.

But all that will remain is a piece of paper by then.

 

[JazzBlueRT]

Supposedly the long term plan is to close all the brick and mortar stores and focus on the digital assets like SYW.

 

[JazzBlueRT]

hmmm.... Sounds familiar (see post #140).

lol.

 

[rmanrman]

Totally agree that there is a change in tool quality and cost
What I agree the most is that GM especially shitvrolet models I've bought and serviced
From new never made it to 50k miles without major failures. Ex 98 G20 v8 van cracked flywheel at 30 k miles. Then at45k trans takes a **** leaving from a tollbooth
Since 1988 I've had Honda riceburner vans latest one 165k miles original everything
Except regular wear items. Never buy GM junk again. Btw I'm 60 yrs old not a pedal
To the metal towing a bus

 

[Codejack]

Never buy GM junk again.

Mom had a Chevy Celebrity which trashed 2 transmissions in 90k miles, and the last one took out the engine.

Hondas and Mazdas have been good to us. Ford trucks, too.

 

[openwheelracing88]

Add an unfriendly business environment to the high cost of domestic production. Taxes and and over regulation have done at least as much damage as high labor costs. Govt. agencies were tripping over each other to create new rules.

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One of these days Americans need to stop blaming taxes, regulation, government, Obama, Hillary and Bernie for their own failures. This is getting pathetic. Put down the double cheese, dump that big gulp and get to work instead of bitching and moaning about a particular political party for all your personal woes. The Germans and Chinese manufacturing industry are not complaining about government, they are working their tails off.

Americans have become lazy and entitled, especially since the baby boomers took control. Simple as that. If you wanted to make sockets in New Mexico, no one is stopping you. Admit it, you rather sit in a corner office with AC blasting on full.

 

[Pantsfall_McFixit]

One of these days Americans need to stop blaming taxes, regulation, government, Obama, Hillary and Bernie for their own failures. This is getting pathetic. Put down the double cheese, dump that big gulp and get to work instead of bitching and moaning about a particular political party for all your personal woes. The Germans and Chinese manufacturing industry are not complaining about government, they are working their tails off.

Americans have become lazy and entitled, especially since the baby boomers took control. Simple as that. If you wanted to make sockets in New Mexico, no one is stopping you. Admit it, you rather sit in a corner office with AC blasting on full.

How do the Germans manage a high quality good-paying manufacturing economy anyway? Genuinely curious here, we should be able to replicate it. As a large economic powerhouse with plenty of natural resources, why can't we Americans do it still?

There are plenty of people who would work in factories if they existed. Remember all those who lost their jobs due to closing tool plants. It's funny how we could afford quality USA tools when we were making them. At least there's a few factories left, smaller and specialized.

 

[Codejack]

How do the Germans manage a high quality good-paying manufacturing economy anyway?

For one thing, they don't spend 18% of their GDP on health care... not to get political, neither party has done right by us on this issue.

For another, they have guaranteed unemployment insurance, as long as you accept any reasonable job offer, so the corporations know that they are going to be paying these people whether they are working or not, so they put them to work.

They also have a strong, well-funded primary education system that coordinates with industry to provide competent workers, so people have the skills they need to get those jobs.

-----------------------------------

What bankrupted General Motors? Health insurance for their retired workers!

What killed Craftsman quality? Danaher trying to cut corners by finding cheaper, untrained labor.

Why can't kids today find decent jobs, with all these unfilled positions? We've sent them all to college to study English and History and Art, all worthy subjects... but we don't need 200,000 History majors every year; we don't even need all the engineers and scientists we graduate, hence the 15% career unemployment rate (those who never find a job in the field) in STEM.

We need plumbers, though, badly, and welders and builders and truck drivers and electricians and all the blue collar stuff that was "beneath us." Who is telling our schools to steer kids that way?

 

[6PTsocket]

One of these days Americans need to stop blaming taxes, regulation, government, Obama, Hillary and Bernie for their own failures. This is getting pathetic. Put down the double cheese, dump that big gulp and get to work instead of bitching and moaning about a particular political party for all your personal woes. The Germans and Chinese manufacturing industry are not complaining about government, they are working their tails off.

Americans have become lazy and entitled, especially since the baby boomers took control. Simple as that. If you wanted to make sockets in New Mexico, no one is stopping you. Admit it, you rather sit in a corner office with AC blasting on full.

Like all ***hole Liberals you had to take an observation that in no way was directed at you and come back with a personal attack. You don't don't know **** about where I work or what I do. Langone, the guy that started Home Depot, said it would be impossible to start that business in today's business envinronment. Fortunately, the current box score is Republican control of both houses of Congress, the Supreme Court, 31 out of 50 state governors, most state legislatures. Democrat loss of over 1000 elected state seats in the last 8 years so go feel the Bern. The working people that supported you have realized you are more concerned with transgender bathrooms, flooding the country with illegals whose offspring will vote Democrat, and trashing people of faith than the economy and national defense. Elitist remarks about "clinging to guns and bibles" and "baskets of deplorables" and calling us racist, zenophobic, homophobes have just about sunk your boat. Nick At Night out polls CNN. You will never hear it where you get what passes for news but the unemploymrnt rate is the lowest in 17 years and the stock market is at an all time high and illegal immigratin is down 60%. The military is getting rebuilt and just maybe the country can be saved from the mess you created.

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[PugetDude]

Who is telling our schools to steer kids that way?

I'll give you one hint... who benefits the most from education for educations sake?

 

[6PTsocket]

Don't get me wrong. I am a fan of Costco, have been a member for over 30 years and admire their business model.
The issue is different expectations. Many people walk into Sears expecting it to be like it used to be 20 years ago and are disappointed when it isn't. Others walk into Harbor Freight and are pleasantly surprised at the range and quality of the merchandise.
Meanwhile Costco charges $60 bucks to walk through the door and expects their customers to dispose of their shipping waste, yet people are thrilled to shop there. If Walmart did the same there would be rioting in the streets.

Different expectations.

Many of us drop a lot of money at Costco and the rebate checks pay off the membership and then some. A little math and I am way ahead. Many Sears stores have empty shelves becouse their vendors are not getting paid. I recently heard that customers have been seen taking items off the shelf and taking them to the service desk for a refund. The employees are so demoralized that they don't bother to say anything when the see this. I have no expectations and almost never go there any more.

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[Codejack]

I'll give you one hint... who benefits the most from education for educations sake?

What? The universities have just been turned into cash cows for local construction companies, to build endless, unneeded expansions on to campuses. They're not even claiming to provide education, any more, it's "the college experience."

They sure aren't wasting any money on faculty salary.

 

[Infinia]

Oh great I came to GJ tool form so I can read all the has been blue collars diagnose our political and economics policies. tools indeed! Isn't there some other forum you dorks can **** off on?

 

[Codejack]

Oh great I came to GJ tool form so I can read all the has been blue collars diagnose our political and economics policies. tools indeed! Isn't there some other forum you dorks can **** off on?

Not me; everyone else kicks me out

Point taken, though, this shouldn't be political.

Note: I am actually college educated. Fat lot of good it did me!

 

[Infinia]

Point taken, though, this shouldn't be political.

One member above who's on my ignore list always seem to skirt this rule and baits more innocents like you. He should of been warned before.

 

[Ryan]

If you can't give an opinion without bashing someone else's, you need to rethink your argument... and find another forum.