Thank you for the sketch! So.. the gripper goes on the contact face.. That could work for larger material. I'm working with 7/16, 7/8, 2.125, 3.125, 3.75, and 4" round bar stock. I like the idea that the hard jaws will work with everything.. Am I missing something? OP2 is done on the mill for the >2" parts. The <1" parts OP2 is on the Hardinge lathe.
Above 1200 Sq/FT Eastern Washington Workshop
- Thread starter slodat
- Start date
Wokspaces above 1200 squarefeet.
Chrisb62
Well-known member
If you are holding on a finished diameter, you will need a set of jaws for each diameter material being held. if you are holding on material that will be turned off later in a second op then one size can be used for all diameters , this is indeed the way I sometimes use them. Because the chuck only has about 16mm travel, you will have to reposition for each size anyway. I switch between 5c ,3j, and hydraulic chuck several times a week with different spindle adapters, so it is a quick thing to do once used to it, and most of the things I do are just a few pieces but must be precision. Not sure if I am explaining this correctly for you to understand, if not feel free to reach out in a private message.
Finallygotit
ALLIANCE MEMBER
That's just not right! 1/4" square graph paper - DONE!BTW who the f--- decided non-square graph paper is a good idea???
rmack898
Well-known member
It identifies as square graph paper.
It's on a pad of paper from an old vendor. Guess I know why we no longer use them.BTW who the f--- decided non-square graph paper is a good idea???
plain2car
Well-known member
too funny.. I like the sketch 
it reminds me of my old manual drafting classes in H.S. EXCEPT...you need to switch the front view & the side view! .... everything else looks very good! I'll give you a B+ .....
well since we're adults now maybe........
it reminds me of my old manual drafting classes in H.S. EXCEPT...you need to switch the front view & the side view! .... everything else looks very good! I'll give you a B+ .....well since we're adults now maybe........
rattle_snake
Well-known member
Man you have really stepped up your game lately with more capable machines. Hell, several big steps over the last few years. Full on machine shop now I'm jealous. Would take me a long time to have any clue how to run them properly.
Eh, I chose the views that best explained what I wanted to show, in an orientation that made sense to me. Didn't put too much thought into it.too funny.. I like the sketch
well since we're adults now maybe........
@zanyad I appreciate the drawing. I think I've settled on a set of steel and aluminum soft jaws in addition to the hard jaws. Going to get it all from Monster Jaws. I've learned it best for me to have a small selection of what I suspect I'll need. It has paid dividends so many times. Also.. I have graph paper notebooks all over the shop. I love graph paper.
Thanks for following along on my journey and participating in the conversation!
Justin - it has been a wild ride. I was thrust into standing the shop up as a full-time business very unexpectedly. It's going well. I've had a really good couple of days for sales. Lots of work to do! The new machines are on the back burner while I shift focus to a rush sheet metal project.
Thanks for following along on my journey and participating in the conversation!
Finallygotit
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Very glad to hear you are getting even more work! Good for you Steven!!!
RickP
Well-known member
Those new machines look right at home in your shop -- nice work getting them moved safely.
You really did pivot quickly to this CNC fabrication business. And you did it without sacrificing quality, which is one of the main reasons you'll have many repeat orders and new customers. This latest order sounds like a big one! When I saw the new machines arriving, I was wondering about how much time you were devoting to marketing vs. upgrading the shop. This new order certainly makes it appear like you spent just the right amount of time marketing! Good luck cranking out the parts for this order.
You really did pivot quickly to this CNC fabrication business. And you did it without sacrificing quality, which is one of the main reasons you'll have many repeat orders and new customers. This latest order sounds like a big one! When I saw the new machines arriving, I was wondering about how much time you were devoting to marketing vs. upgrading the shop. This new order certainly makes it appear like you spent just the right amount of time marketing! Good luck cranking out the parts for this order.
@RickP - thank you for the vote of confidence and participating in the conversation!
I assembled the coolant tank, and successfully powered up the VMC. It was really nice to see it come to life. I shut it down after. Plan is to get the lathe powered up tomorrow.
This is 1360 pounds of cold rolled steel. It’s really nice stuff. This is my first time working with it.
It’s so nice having a forklift. Unloading took a few minutes and no risk to injury.
The castors on the table have a 500# or so rating. Stacking over a half ton on top made it a lot harder to roll around the shop! Oops
I’ll be burning through the material quite quickly. Next time I’ll load the sheet metal on the table farther in the shop, closer to the plasma. It’s 12 and 14ga, so not too heavy to move around.
I’m really excited to finally put the plasma and press brake to work. The tumbler is going to be great for post plasma / pre paint processing. More to follow!
I assembled the coolant tank, and successfully powered up the VMC. It was really nice to see it come to life. I shut it down after. Plan is to get the lathe powered up tomorrow.
This is 1360 pounds of cold rolled steel. It’s really nice stuff. This is my first time working with it.
It’s so nice having a forklift. Unloading took a few minutes and no risk to injury.
The castors on the table have a 500# or so rating. Stacking over a half ton on top made it a lot harder to roll around the shop! Oops
I’ll be burning through the material quite quickly. Next time I’ll load the sheet metal on the table farther in the shop, closer to the plasma. It’s 12 and 14ga, so not too heavy to move around.
I’m really excited to finally put the plasma and press brake to work. The tumbler is going to be great for post plasma / pre paint processing. More to follow!
lilscorpion
Well-known member
Lookin forward to seein some parts come off the table and go thru the brake too. 
RickP
Well-known member
And your forklift for the win!
That looks like a real time saver (and a real back saver too).
Can't wait to see how much you've improved your workflow. Your investment in new machines should really start paying dividends now.
That looks like a real time saver (and a real back saver too).
Can't wait to see how much you've improved your workflow. Your investment in new machines should really start paying dividends now.
macgyver37
Well-known member
Some tidbits on the mill, you can get new keypad membranes cheap from china, but be wary, there have been quite a few people that put them on to find out they press multiple keys at once and when they power up the machine it deletes the parameters. There has been multiple people that have not had any issues as well, but I have been advised by a tech that has had to restore the parameters to just buy new from Fanuc and not risk it.
Also, there are knobs on the back of the crt that you can adjust brightness etc if you need to mess with it. I had to make mine a hint brighter to read the ladder as the crt does get dimmer with age. There are also quite a few LCD screen upgrades for them as well if you want to go that route. I have not yet as mine works fine, but a quick search and you will find a few forum threads with suggestions on which kit or parts.
Last thing for now, if you do not have a backup of the parameters, do that first thing. I am talking about the 900 series params, my Leadwell had them printed out in the manual. Hopefully you got them with it. If not, you can download them off the control, you'll have to look it up as I don't remember at the moment. If the batteries die and you don't have them backed up you now have a big brick in the shop until you get them from someone and hope they are the same exactly as what your machine needs.
If you don't know, Do Not take the batteries out without the machine powered on, that is what the batteries are for, to save the memory while the power is off, taking them out erases the memory.
Also, there are knobs on the back of the crt that you can adjust brightness etc if you need to mess with it. I had to make mine a hint brighter to read the ladder as the crt does get dimmer with age. There are also quite a few LCD screen upgrades for them as well if you want to go that route. I have not yet as mine works fine, but a quick search and you will find a few forum threads with suggestions on which kit or parts.
Last thing for now, if you do not have a backup of the parameters, do that first thing. I am talking about the 900 series params, my Leadwell had them printed out in the manual. Hopefully you got them with it. If not, you can download them off the control, you'll have to look it up as I don't remember at the moment. If the batteries die and you don't have them backed up you now have a big brick in the shop until you get them from someone and hope they are the same exactly as what your machine needs.
If you don't know, Do Not take the batteries out without the machine powered on, that is what the batteries are for, to save the memory while the power is off, taking them out erases the memory.
Had to shift the shop into sheet metal mode. Moving the plasma last week meant I had some loose ends. I got everything setup and a sheet of 14ga cold rolled on the table. This is significantly nicer material compared to hot rolled. No mill scale!! It cuts nicely.
Once I was cutting, I needed to get the press brake dialed in- angle compensation, and then some test coupons to calibrate the K factor in CAD. There are K factor calculators online. Fusion defaults to 0.44 for mild steel. Turns out the 14ga CR K factor is more like 0.51 with the die combo I’m using. This contributes to the model, and therefore the CAM being as accurate as possible.
I bought radius gages just for this purpose.
This is part of the reason I bought the surface plate.. I can use it to get an idea of how things are turning out. Especially helped when trying to get things dialed in prior to running parts.
I got a great deal on a pair of planer gages. They are perfect for checking a right angle on the surface plate. I was really happy to see that my squares were right. This means I have the brake compensation set right (enough).
Another parameter I was dialing in today is a 0.88” flange. This is a call out on the engineer’s drawing and I wanted to get it sorted out before making the big parts.
When I saw this I just laughed. It’s good to be this lucky!
These are perfect for this project. And then some! A close look at the photo, or experience with plasma cut parts and you’ll see the edge has some angle to it. It’s not much, it’s part of the plasma process, it doesn’t affect the part, it’s not a quality issue, and it’s part of what the height gage is showing.
I think I have the 14ga dialed in pretty well. I’ll run another set of test coupons in the morning and make sure. Then I’ll do some wide coupons to see how the press brake does on a wider bend. And, finally I’ll run all the 14ga parts. Hopefully tomorrow.
Once I was cutting, I needed to get the press brake dialed in- angle compensation, and then some test coupons to calibrate the K factor in CAD. There are K factor calculators online. Fusion defaults to 0.44 for mild steel. Turns out the 14ga CR K factor is more like 0.51 with the die combo I’m using. This contributes to the model, and therefore the CAM being as accurate as possible.
I bought radius gages just for this purpose.
This is part of the reason I bought the surface plate.. I can use it to get an idea of how things are turning out. Especially helped when trying to get things dialed in prior to running parts.
I got a great deal on a pair of planer gages. They are perfect for checking a right angle on the surface plate. I was really happy to see that my squares were right. This means I have the brake compensation set right (enough).
Another parameter I was dialing in today is a 0.88” flange. This is a call out on the engineer’s drawing and I wanted to get it sorted out before making the big parts.
When I saw this I just laughed. It’s good to be this lucky!
These are perfect for this project. And then some! A close look at the photo, or experience with plasma cut parts and you’ll see the edge has some angle to it. It’s not much, it’s part of the plasma process, it doesn’t affect the part, it’s not a quality issue, and it’s part of what the height gage is showing.
I think I have the 14ga dialed in pretty well. I’ll run another set of test coupons in the morning and make sure. Then I’ll do some wide coupons to see how the press brake does on a wider bend. And, finally I’ll run all the 14ga parts. Hopefully tomorrow.
Thank you!!!
I was already aware of backing up parameters, and the battery situation. The seller has to go through the process of getting the parameters from the manufacturer. I was not aware of the key cover issue. We shall see how the quality is. I have some original Fanuc covers, but they are symbols instead of text. I may run one and hang a cheat sheet next to it.
Thanks again!
macgyver37
Well-known member
I am confident you can get the exact key pad for yours from Fanuc, just get the part number off of it. I think you can pull the bezel off and see it on the edge. I don't think they are honestly much money, like under $100, but when the cheap ones are $12 it is tempting. I know alot of people have not had any trouble at all with the cheap ones, but I think I'll skip the risk unless the OEM ones are unreasonable or unavailable.
There is a way to download the parameters directly off your machine, I just don't remember it. That way you will have them..
I'd suggest printing them out and put a hardcopy in the control cabinet.
Do you know yet which version control you have? The OM had A, B, C, D. I have an A and a C.
There is a way to download the parameters directly off your machine, I just don't remember it. That way you will have them..
I'd suggest printing them out and put a hardcopy in the control cabinet.
Do you know yet which version control you have? The OM had A, B, C, D. I have an A and a C.
I was looking into optimizing cutting 12 and 14ga CR and found this thread on plasma spider. Changed my height from 0.060 to 0.075. A little less dross. There’s not much to speak of. The bench grinder wire wheel takes it right off. I’m sure the tumbler will have no problem.
I verified my testing from yesterday. These magnetic squaring arms are awesome. They not only provide a short right angle fence, they also can hold the material. Really cool. Perfect for holding the test coupons.
Spent the day sorting out features of the parts I’ll be making, in smaller test pieces. First was a basic pan with closed corners.
The left was my first attempt. Part turned out great, but I wanted the corners closed up. The right is after I sorted out how to draw the features correctly in Fusion. A quick weld and the corners closed up.
Once that was sorted the next part was this Z shaped part with flanges going both directions.
This is the flat part, ready for forming. The drawing tells me where to program the back stop and each bend’s length. This is where segmented dies come into play.
All the test parts I’ve cut tuning K factor, bend angle, cut parameters, etc.
The surface plate is really working out!
All this translates into production parts in the morning!
I verified my testing from yesterday. These magnetic squaring arms are awesome. They not only provide a short right angle fence, they also can hold the material. Really cool. Perfect for holding the test coupons.
Spent the day sorting out features of the parts I’ll be making, in smaller test pieces. First was a basic pan with closed corners.
The left was my first attempt. Part turned out great, but I wanted the corners closed up. The right is after I sorted out how to draw the features correctly in Fusion. A quick weld and the corners closed up.
Once that was sorted the next part was this Z shaped part with flanges going both directions.
This is the flat part, ready for forming. The drawing tells me where to program the back stop and each bend’s length. This is where segmented dies come into play.
All the test parts I’ve cut tuning K factor, bend angle, cut parameters, etc.
The surface plate is really working out!
All this translates into production parts in the morning!
ptt49er
Well-known member
Nice work!
The time spent over the weekend getting things dialed in paid off today. I think the workflow is headed in the right direction as well.
Part off the plasma, after a quick run around the edges with an angle grinder loaded up with a knitted wire wheel and a once over with a RO sander and 100 grit.
Next stop is the press brake. It’s surprising how awesome of a machine this is, for how “simple” of an operation a 90 degree bend is.
I’m happy with the corners. A few dabs with the TIG and they will be good to go.
The brake dies leave a small witness mark. There are remedies for this, but I don’t have them on hand yet. Quick hit with the RO sander takes care of most of it.
Showing how the two parts stack up and allow for about 3/8” adjustment in the X and Y when assembled.
Showing how the two panels will be installed, one on top of the other. Both get the second part shown on the bottom.
The gooseneck punch I ordered is at the freight terminal. They only come here once a week and tomorrow’s truck is already full. I’ll pick it up at the terminal so I can meet the client’s deadline.
Part off the plasma, after a quick run around the edges with an angle grinder loaded up with a knitted wire wheel and a once over with a RO sander and 100 grit.
Next stop is the press brake. It’s surprising how awesome of a machine this is, for how “simple” of an operation a 90 degree bend is.
I’m happy with the corners. A few dabs with the TIG and they will be good to go.
The brake dies leave a small witness mark. There are remedies for this, but I don’t have them on hand yet. Quick hit with the RO sander takes care of most of it.
Showing how the two parts stack up and allow for about 3/8” adjustment in the X and Y when assembled.
Showing how the two panels will be installed, one on top of the other. Both get the second part shown on the bottom.
The gooseneck punch I ordered is at the freight terminal. They only come here once a week and tomorrow’s truck is already full. I’ll pick it up at the terminal so I can meet the client’s deadline.
rattle_snake
Well-known member
Impressive!
Thank you! I’m really happy with these parts so far! I’m excited for the next project.. when I’ll be able to use all I’m learning on this one.. and maybe work less than 16 hour days!
I know folks enjoy photos..
This is the gooseneck punch. I picked it up at the freight terminal yesterday in order to get it a WEEK earlier. 5 hour round trip. Well worth it to be able to get this project.
In the press brake.
This shows the gooseneck compared to a straight punch.
The money shot. Literally. This is why I had to have it.
Completed part. It took all day, into the evening to get to this point. Each material/thickness /punch/die combo is a new configuration that requires testing to dial in the bend angle and the k factor. If this is skipped the parts don’t come out to correct dimensions. It’s a shift from machining tolerances to sheet metal tolerances. These are within 0.02 in the called out dimensions at worst, including stacked tolerances. My client is very happy with that and i believe these are good numbers in general.
Once I have the bends sorted out, it’s time to jam!!
24 parts with drilled holes also. The drill unit really helps with the parts I’m making. A 1/8 or 1/4 plasma hole is just ****. The drill obviously makes a nice hole. And it’s automated, so no time from me.
This is the rush portion of the order for these parts. There’s more that are cut and will metal finished, formed, and painted after the rush order goes out.
Long day. Feels amazing. Thanks for following along!
RickP
Well-known member
And that right there is why the customer ordered from you instead of going somewhere else -- doing whatever it takes to meet the rush order, while still staying within 0.02 on the finished part! With extremely satisfied customers like that, I'll bet you're going to be so busy that you'll have to consider turning down orders before you know it.
Finallygotit
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Steven, that is freakin' awesome!! Fantastic work there!
No, no, no..... Time to hire on and grow!
GeddyT
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Do you have plans to mill your own press dies in the future?
Thanks for cheering me on guys!
@GeddyT machining them isn’t really on the radar right now. There’s a lot of clever laminated die stuff out there. I could see doing that. I’m buried right now, and happy to have been able to buy the punch I needed!
Been working on this test piece for a while now. The end bend is tricky. I think I have a working setup. Now to make the 40” long part.
@GeddyT machining them isn’t really on the radar right now. There’s a lot of clever laminated die stuff out there. I could see doing that. I’m buried right now, and happy to have been able to buy the punch I needed!
Been working on this test piece for a while now. The end bend is tricky. I think I have a working setup. Now to make the 40” long part.
lilscorpion
Well-known member
Thanks for cheering me on guys!
@GeddyT machining them isn’t really on the radar right now. There’s a lot of clever laminated die stuff out there. I could see doing that. I’m buried right now, and happy to have been able to buy the punch I needed!
Been working on this test piece for a while now. The end bend is tricky. I think I have a working setup. Now to make the 40” long part.
Don’t you brake the end first (or second) and then bend with the “end” of the end of the die/machine?
With that gooseneck you might be able to pull it off.
Don’t you brake the end first (or second) and then bend with the “end” of the end of the die/machine?
With that gooseneck you might be able to pull it off.
First.. thank you @lilscorpion! Your post snapped me out of the dumb path I was on. It’s wild how that sorta thing just clicks. The ah-ha moments!!
Full disclosure, let’s talk about the dumb ideas.
This is how the end turned out with my dumb setup..
Embarrassed to admit I was considering this as a proposed solution prior to Matt’s post.
Ahh.. A five axis CNC press brake with segmented punches and dies! If you don’t have experience with this stuff, what’s happening is the end bends are done the easy way, from the front using the back gage. Then the punch and die is configured such that the end bend has room on each end.
Back gage moves back the right amount, and second bend is made.
To me this is the magic. The engineer that designs these parts is really good. Clearance is clearance, Clarence.
Again, it’s hard to put to words how satisfying the press brake is. I think part of this lies in the raw 70 (metric) ton power of the punch, coupled with the delicate control of it all. I love it!
And what matters.. the part is made per the drawing. This gets several welded gussets. Tomorrow.
Thanks for following along and contributing to the conversation! It dawned on me I have no idea how many folks read this. I welcome comments, ideas, feedback, etc!
bugnut
ALLIANCE MEMBER
lilscorpion
Well-known member
It’s likely inevitable. At some point a goofy part or idea will mandate a custom tool he’ll be able to make on his mill/lathe that he might not be able to buy or afford to pay some else to make. Unless that is his creativity stays within his tooling…believe that tho and you should go back and re-read this thread from the beginning.
Well said sir!It’s likely inevitable. At some point a goofy part or idea will mandate a custom tool he’ll be able to make on his mill/lathe that he might not be able to buy or afford to pay some else to make. Unless that is his creativity stays within his tooling…believe that tho and you should go back and re-read this thread from the beginning.
MadeByMiller
Well-known member
Wow Steven, I haven't had much time lately to check in, but the sheetmetal work is looking very impressive! Well done.
Jayman17
Well-known member
I’m really enjoying watching you make all these parts on your awesome new machines! I don’t post because this stuff is way over my head but I am following along. Very impressive!
Looks like you are enjoying yourself Stephen.
Looks like you are enjoying yourself Stephen.
Busy days in the shop. The last few are a blur at this point. A portion of this order was a rush, needing to be on the other side of the state NLT early yesterday. When I got to the shop Saturday "all" that was left felt like a pretty smooth half day in the shop, then load up and head over to drop the parts off. I'm using a water borne industrial paint with 3M's Accuspray PPS gun setup. It has been great in the past. Well.. it had been a while since I used it so I did a quick look online on their suggested starting point for spraying this sort of paint. After a VERY long day of fighting it, troubleshooting, and tons of rework I finally realized their hard and fast 20psi with while spraying was causing the paint to dry in the tip, clogging it up. I lowered the pressure, and everything just clicked. It's very nice having a real spray booth. It just works.
The first two parts. They turned out great. It wasn't until I was painting the bigger doors when I started having issues.
This is the only photo I took the rest of the day. I didn't hit the road until 8pm and I had a four hour drive. This is what being a small business owner who is still getting processes in place looks like. Task take 2-4 times as long the will now that things are sorted and dialed in.
I use a sheet metal specific drill bit I bought a box of years ago in the CNC plasma drill unit. It does great drilling, but leaves a hell of a burr on the backside. I found the bandfile a great, fast way to remove the burr with little to no witness mark on the part.
I'm thinking 5 or so years ago I bought this 3M pneumatic bandfile. I loved it. It has seen a lot of use and is great for fabrication. Of course dragging an air hose around can be a hassle..
2-3 years ago I saw this conversion available for a M12 cutoff tool I had bought and didn't find that useful. It adapted a HF pneumatic bandfile head to the M12 tool motor. It has been really useful. And, no air hose. Plenty of power for the task at hand. Its drawback is the motor is made for a cutoff tool, so it is one speed. Hasn't been a big deal, and I've used it a lot. The 3M now usually sits in the drawer, unless I want a second grit loaded up and I'm using both.
The parts I just delivered are being installed by a friend's company. There's some onsite sheet metal work they will be doing. I had noticed the new Milwaukee M12 bandfile when I was at a tool store a couple weeks ago. When we were talking about the work they would be doing on-site, I suggested the M12 bandfile. Well... I was looking at them online. Soo....
It arrived this morning. Definitely not a "cheap" tool. Less than half the price of the Dynabride stuff and the 3M pneumatic though. Obviously it just arrive, but it looks like they knocked it out of the park. It will see a lot of use today. If i love it, I may buy the 3/8 wide version as well. They both have their place, depending on what you are working on.
The 3M will still see use when I need the speed/power it has. But the go to is definitely the cordless M12. Who would have thought we would use batteries in all these tools!
The first two parts. They turned out great. It wasn't until I was painting the bigger doors when I started having issues.
This is the only photo I took the rest of the day. I didn't hit the road until 8pm and I had a four hour drive. This is what being a small business owner who is still getting processes in place looks like. Task take 2-4 times as long the will now that things are sorted and dialed in.
I use a sheet metal specific drill bit I bought a box of years ago in the CNC plasma drill unit. It does great drilling, but leaves a hell of a burr on the backside. I found the bandfile a great, fast way to remove the burr with little to no witness mark on the part.
I'm thinking 5 or so years ago I bought this 3M pneumatic bandfile. I loved it. It has seen a lot of use and is great for fabrication. Of course dragging an air hose around can be a hassle..
2-3 years ago I saw this conversion available for a M12 cutoff tool I had bought and didn't find that useful. It adapted a HF pneumatic bandfile head to the M12 tool motor. It has been really useful. And, no air hose. Plenty of power for the task at hand. Its drawback is the motor is made for a cutoff tool, so it is one speed. Hasn't been a big deal, and I've used it a lot. The 3M now usually sits in the drawer, unless I want a second grit loaded up and I'm using both.
The parts I just delivered are being installed by a friend's company. There's some onsite sheet metal work they will be doing. I had noticed the new Milwaukee M12 bandfile when I was at a tool store a couple weeks ago. When we were talking about the work they would be doing on-site, I suggested the M12 bandfile. Well... I was looking at them online. Soo....
It arrived this morning. Definitely not a "cheap" tool. Less than half the price of the Dynabride stuff and the 3M pneumatic though. Obviously it just arrive, but it looks like they knocked it out of the park. It will see a lot of use today. If i love it, I may buy the 3/8 wide version as well. They both have their place, depending on what you are working on.
The 3M will still see use when I need the speed/power it has. But the go to is definitely the cordless M12. Who would have thought we would use batteries in all these tools!
Thank you, Austin. That's what I'm going for! I'm really enjoying the work and the finished product.
Thank you for following the journey! It definitely has been a cool, wild ride.I’m really enjoying watching you make all these parts on your awesome new machines! I don’t post because this stuff is way over my head but I am following along. Very impressive!
Looks like you are enjoying yourself Stephen.