Generator Selection and Install

[Junkman]

A couple things:
- The generator inlet connector on the outside of the house for this sort of thing is male with prongs. Don't use a conventional female receptacle.
- If you connect up a 120VAC generator it will only run circuits that are on the same leg of the service. Rather than temporarily tying the two legs together, it's a better idea to shuffle the desired circuits around in the panel so they're all on that same leg - say, the furnace and a few important receptacle and light circuits (of course, don't move everything to one side, the panel needs to be balanced so there are equal loads on both legs when the power is on normally.)
- As for the comment about keeping the generator in an attached garage, even though there's a firewall separating the garage from the rest of the house it's still a dangerous thing to do as the generator fumes can come in through the tiniest of cracks. Roll the generator outside when it's running.

Here's one example of a 30A 120VAC generator inlet connector, but there are many others.

As I mentioned, it has a "hospital quiet" muffler that is piped with 2" steel piping. That isn't an exhaust pipe; it is a Schedule 40 threaded pipe, with a special stainless-steel woven exhaust that absorbs engine vibrations. All of this goes through a metal thimble on the wall of the garage and exits outside of the garage. There are no fumes that can escape from that pipe and into the garage. The system I designed is quite elaborate, with Schedule 40 steel 45-degree sweeps welded together to create 90-degree turns where necessary. I have a background in plumbing specialty vehicles designed to transport corrosive chemicals. I will try to get some pictures of it in the next few days. I will edit this thread with the pictures.

 

[mm08822]

WOW so much useful information in this thread - its over whelming. I started this thread wanting to determine if the idea of a portable generator functioning through the main house panel was a feasible idea. I now know that it is not only feasible but pretty common.

So now lets get to specifics in an organized manner. Given that I would like to use a NG generator but don't want hard exterior piping - is it reasonable to say that I could park the generator 24" from a block wall, have a gas line run to the inside of that wall and then through that wall with a quick disconnect for a flexible line that I could install/remove as needed. Let's keep this big picture for now - is my idea reasonable. If so I will probably get an estimate from a plumber for that work

Rick

Yes, that can be done with the appropriate quick disconnect gas fittings.

Just know what size gen you will getting so all fittings are properly sized.

My ng grills have been connected this way for 25 years.

 

[larry4406]

Where are you going to store the generator?

Here is one of several threads on generator sheds.

Let's See Your Generator Sheds!

All of the various recent threads about using portable backup generators safely has gotten me to think about putting mine in an external purpose built shed away from the house. Let's see what the GJ folks have come up with! Remember we like pictures. Lets try to keep this focused on the shed...

www.garagejournal.com

 

[Innovate1]

correct the 120v 240V appliances wont work.... it shouldnt cause damage because you arent completing the circuit (120v from same phase on both feeds to the appliance) but best to just shut off the breakers

Fixed it for you. You obviously know this and just a brain fart or something.

 

[Rick_Br]

OK - seems like I can start to consider what generator I want. The features I can think of are:
1. NG operated although a tri fuel would be a nice back up option
2. reasonably easy to move around for an old guy
3. quiet
4. capable of panel interlock connection
5. 4000 watts minimum
6. under $1500

Anything I am missing? If not who would be the top three manufacturers?

Rick

 

[theoldwizard1]

Fixed it for you !

Also won't tying both legs together mean that 240v appliances will not work? That's ok for my application, but if that can cause damage I'd have to make sure I turn those breakers off.

Correct, the 120v 240V appliances wont work ...

 

[theoldwizard1]

OK - seems like I can start to consider what generator I want. The features I can think of are:
1. NG operated although a tri fuel would be a nice back up option
2. reasonably easy to move around for an old guy
3. quiet
4. capable of panel interlock connection
5. 4000 watts minimum
6. under $1500

Anything I am missing? If not who would be the top three manufacturers?

Honda, Predator (Harbor Freight), Champion.

Go with a tri-fuel ! LP and NG can be hard to start. (Not a fan of electric start. You can always give it a shot of carb cleaner to get it started.) There are some hand-carry portables, but depending how far you have to carry them ...


This model uses a lithium-ion battery so it should last a long time.

Quiet is always relative ! Enclosed are quieter than "open frame". Generator Noise Reduction Box DIY (Styrofoam)

All generators are capable of being connected to an interlock !

One other thing to consider. Inverter versus non-inverter. Inverter generators create a much "cleaner" output. I actually own 2 generators. A 30+ yo Craftsman 6250W (starting) non-inverter, open frame (very loud, drinks fuel) and a 4000w (starting) inverter, closed frame, hand carry. The only good thing about the Craftsman is it can run lights and refrigerators in 4 houses !

There are a LOT of open frame 240V generators, single and tri-fuel, available in the 5000W - 7000W range for well under $1000 ! They are big, heavy (wheels required) and loud. Bigger is not always better ! Typically louder and consume more fuel !

Also, if you want to run a whole house A/C or heat pump, you will probably need something over 8000W, even with a soft start kit installed.

 

[Innovate1]

I have had no trouble starting my generator on NG or propane. Using starting fluid (or carb cleaner, etc) is hard on the engine - I have used it in some cases with other engines but try to avoid. The directions say to hold the button on the regulator briefly (forget the time but it is a second or two I think) before starting - basically the same as using a primer with gas. Never have had gas in the unit. The unit will produce slightly less power on NG than on propane and I think both may be slightly less than on gasoline. But if you get a slightly larger unit that will take care of it - I read it was about 15% less but didn't verify that.

 

[Rick_Br]

I like the idea of a hand carry unit like oldwizard linked but it is only a dual fuel - no natural gas. Is there such a think as a tri fuel in a hand carry version? I also have noticed that with natural gas the watt output drops significantly.

What is the down side of a bigger unit (one with wheels but still considered a portable) to being outside all the time. I have a high deck in the back with a lot of wasted space underneath it. I was thinking ,maybe giving a generator a permanent parking spot there. I have some concerns about moving one of those into place as I get older.

Rick

 

[larry4406]

I like the idea of a hand carry unit like oldwizard linked but it is only a dual fuel - no natural gas. Is there such a think as a tri fuel in a hand carry version? I also have noticed that with natural gas the watt output drops significantly.

What is the down side of a bigger unit (one with wheels but still considered a portable) to being outside all the time. I have a high deck in the back with a lot of wasted space underneath it. I was thinking ,maybe giving a generator a permanent parking spot there. I have some concerns about moving one of those into place as I get older.

Rick

I can't find the posts of Oldwizard in this thread. I have him blocked and searching just now, it appears he is gone?

Honestly, a hand carry unit is going to be a small inverter type 120V. You would be able to run a handful of circuits ok. As explained prior, I am not sure of a 120V only generator inlet due to the alternating bus on most of today's electric panels. I think if you are seriously considering an interlock to your panel, you should limit yourself to 240V generators.

Downside of a larger unit being outside?

• Weather degradation unless covered or in an enclosure
• Degradation from vermin eating fuel lines, etc
• If under your deck, can your protect it from the elements and service it?
• More capacity to power more things (not a downside)

My generator is a Generac XL7500 which is 7500W 240V and peak 13500W. Its on wheels, but is not light by any means. I try to preposition it when there is advance warning of bad storm (recent snow event for example). When there is a freak event, well I just wait awhile before I feel that its time to run the fridges, well, and septic pumps. Mine is gasoline only.

 

[Stuart in MN]

majority of panels nowadays have alternating phases on each side of the panel (eg. space 1 is phase A, space 3 is phase b/space 2 is phase A, space 4 is phase B) so putting everything on one side wouldnt put all those loads on just 1 phase.

only way to put everything on 1 phase is by skipping every other breaker space on both sides.

You're right and I should have been more clear, that was what I meant - I should have said phase 1 and phase 2, or L1 and L2, but was trying for a layman's explanation.

 

[dave*99]

I can't find the posts of Oldwizard in this thread. I have him blocked and searching just now, it appears he is gone?

Hardly

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Fixed it for you. You obviously know this and just a brain fart or something.

yeah that was a typo. thanks

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I can't find the posts of Oldwizard in this thread. I have him blocked and searching just now, it appears he is gone?

his posts are indeed in this thread.

 

[Rick_Br]

Here's a champion model that seems to satisfy all my requirements - it is not quiet technology - 74 dB
https://www.acehardware.com/departm...xK7Gj4L5p0fZl03icuy-omKedt6RORVxoCDQ0QAvD_BwE

I was also looking at an Ali Express model but the brand name was not champion and seemed to be associated with bad reviews.

Any thoughts? I did see one that was only 3250 watts with NG - I worry that may not be enough but it is half the cost but it also only has 120 volt outlets. Not sure how important that is

Rick

 

[Rick_Br]

How important is inverter technology in the champion generators. I am really liking the one I linked in the post above but it is not inverter/quiet technology

Rick

 

[ripperd]

just install a jumper in the plug on the cord for the 120v generator.

Instead of modifying any cables I just use a TT30 extension from my generator to this, and then plug this into my 30a 120/240v generator inlet. It connects both hots to the single TT30 hot.

Amazon.com: POWGRN 30 Amp to 30 Amp RV Generator Adapter Cord 1FT(12 Inch), NEMA TT-30 Male Plug to NEMA L14-30 Female Plug, 3 Prong Heavy Duty Power Cord, 10 Gauge STW, 30A 125V/250V, Black-Yellow, ETL Listed : Patio, Lawn & Garden

Amazon.com: POWGRN 30 Amp to 30 Amp RV Generator Adapter Cord 1FT(12 Inch), NEMA TT-30 Male Plug to NEMA L14-30 Female Plug, 3 Prong Heavy Duty Power Cord, 10 Gauge STW, 30A 125V/250V, Black-Yellow, ETL Listed : Patio, Lawn & Garden

www.amazon.com

 

[wyliesdiesels]

How important is inverter technology in the champion generators. I am really liking the one I linked in the post above but it is not inverter/quiet technology

Rick

if you care about electronics and not letting the magic smoke out, inverter would be important

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Instead of modifying any cables I just use a TT30 extension from my generator to this, and then plug this into my 30a 120/240v generator inlet. It connects both hots to the single TT30 hot.

Amazon.com: POWGRN 30 Amp to 30 Amp RV Generator Adapter Cord 1FT(12 Inch), NEMA TT-30 Male Plug to NEMA L14-30 Female Plug, 3 Prong Heavy Duty Power Cord, 10 Gauge STW, 30A 125V/250V, Black-Yellow, ETL Listed : Patio, Lawn & Garden

Amazon.com: POWGRN 30 Amp to 30 Amp RV Generator Adapter Cord 1FT(12 Inch), NEMA TT-30 Male Plug to NEMA L14-30 Female Plug, 3 Prong Heavy Duty Power Cord, 10 Gauge STW, 30A 125V/250V, Black-Yellow, ETL Listed : Patio, Lawn & Garden

www.amazon.com

im not trusting some random chicom **** that probably isnt listed (i know it says ETL)....

 

[snickers muncher]

im not trusting some random chicom **** that probably isnt listed (i know it says ETL)....

Do you have a brand that you would recommend?

 

[Two Door]

What is the down side of a bigger unit (one with wheels but still considered a portable) to being outside all the time. I have a high deck in the back with a lot of wasted space underneath it. I was thinking ,maybe giving a generator a permanent parking spot there. I have some concerns about moving one of those into place as I get older.

Rick

Your concern is warranted. I have the Champion 201175 - Nominally 8500 watts. Listed as 214 lbs. This sucker is heavy, even just the handle, for this seventy year old. Moving it on anything soft would be a real problem. Oddly, the 201417 is listed at 11000 watts and is nine pounds lighter. If I didn't have space limitations on fuel storage it would have been slightly preferable.

Some of the Westinghouse inverters are lighter, for roughly equivalent watts. Also check out the Westinghouse non-inverter models if noise is not a concern. The higher output models list lower than usual wave form distortion (THD), although I've seen users say the figures aren't that accurate as the load increases.

On the deck - think seriously about the chance of the exhaust infiltrating the house....

 

[Two Door]

OK - seems like I can start to consider what generator I want. The features I can think of are:
1. NG operated although a tri fuel would be a nice back up option
.......

Anything I am missing? If not who would be the top three manufacturers?

Rick

If you want a DIY option for gas/NG, "Snorkle" kits are available. I think Nash is the best recognized.

Aside from Honda (the recognized best, and priced accordingly) the ones I see most on user groups are Duromax, Champion, Westinghouse and Predator. (Edit - also Firman). It is widely reported they are made in only a couple of factories, using similar if not identical components. The differences are in after-sale parts, service and support. I did see one person who worked in service say that GenMax and Pulsar were hard to find parts for.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

Do you have a brand that you would recommend?

HONDA……….. Invest in the best and you will thank me later.

 

[Rick_Br]

i've been rethinking the whole thing and will be backing off of the idea of permanent outside location. I have a walk out garage/basement that is really a shop (no car has seen the inside ).There is also a lot of concrete for easy rolling to a good distance from the house. So I think I can find a spot in the shop to store a generator and then roll it out when needed.

NG compatible is a deal breaker - both for inside storage and ease of operation. 120 volt only output is OK but I would like the 240 option. Somewhat light weight is probably needed - the one I linked above is 156 pounds - probably manageable. I would like low noise but the one above is 72dB - like a vacumm cleaner the internet says. I have been focused on Champion but maybe over the next few days I'll take a look at harbor freight and westinghouse.

So to summarize my requirements to date
mandatory - NG compatible, electric start, 120 output, somewhat light weight with wheels, minimum of 4000 watts running capacity wth NG

Nice to have - 120/240 volt output, higher watts - maybe 5000 with an inverter design with quiet running

Still looking to be under $1000 but can go higher for the right unit.

I've been fighting with myself all day to not over buy. I am forcing myself to remember that this is, relatively speaking, for short term survival. In the 10 hears we have lived in central NC there may have been one time where a generator would have been useful. As a result I can't justify a $10,000 generac investment.

So here is another question - with a generator it is working to create electricity whether you need it or not. Theoretically the generator would be running all the time, using NG, for potentially no good reason. I use a CPAP machine so I've been thinking about a way of powering that all night without running a huge generator - maybe a battery operated generator. Oh well - one more thing to consider.

 

[dave*99]

There are battery backups systems specifically for CPAP machines. And you can travel with them.

 

[Two Door]

I use a CPAP machine so I've been thinking about a way of powering that all night without running a huge generator - maybe a battery operated generator. Oh well - one more thing to consider

Yes - known as Portable Power Stations. Also good for recharging phones and cordless stuff (flashlights, fans) when you don't want to run the generator quite yet.

 

[mm08822]

i've been rethinking the whole thing and will be backing off of the idea of permanent outside location. I have a walk out garage/basement that is really a shop (no car has seen the inside ).There is also a lot of concrete for easy rolling to a good distance from the house. So I think I can find a spot in the shop to store a generator and then roll it out when needed.

NG compatible is a deal breaker - both for inside storage and ease of operation. 120 volt only output is OK but I would like the 240 option. Somewhat light weight is probably needed - the one I linked above is 156 pounds - probably manageable. I would like low noise but the one above is 72dB - like a vacumm cleaner the internet says. I have been focused on Champion but maybe over the next few days I'll take a look at harbor freight and westinghouse.

So to summarize my requirements to date
mandatory - NG compatible, electric start, 120 output, somewhat light weight with wheels, minimum of 4000 watts running capacity wth NG

Nice to have - 120/240 volt output, higher watts - maybe 5000 with an inverter design with quiet running

Still looking to be under $1000 but can go higher for the right unit.

I've been fighting with myself all day to not over buy. I am forcing myself to remember that this is, relatively speaking, for short term survival. In the 10 hears we have lived in central NC there may have been one time where a generator would have been useful. As a result I can't justify a $10,000 generac investment.

So here is another question - with a generator it is working to create electricity whether you need it or not. Theoretically the generator would be running all the time, using NG, for potentially no good reason. I use a CPAP machine so I've been thinking about a way of powering that all night without running a huge generator - maybe a battery operated generator. Oh well - one more thing to consider.

You don't need $10K for a portable gen. You can find great units for under $2k, even $1K.

Any generator does not have to run 24/7 while the grid is down. YOU manage when it runs. Enough to keep fridge/freezers cold, make coffee, run washer, dryer, stove top, enough furnace time to keep house manageable, charge some lights. Then you shut it down for an hour or 3.......and so on. Basically, you lump run time of devices/loads together within the limits of the generator size you purchase.

Your vehicles can also charge small items.

 

[theoldwizard1]

deleted

 

[theoldwizard1]

Different regulator[/urlPklA4gSDj-Q

 

[theoldwizard1]

deleted

 

[theoldwizard1]

So to summarize my requirements to date

• mandatory - NG compatible, electric start, 120 output, somewhat light weight with wheels, minimum of 4000 watts running capacity with NG
• Nice to have - 120/240 volt output, higher watts - maybe 5000 with an inverter design with quiet running
• Still looking to be under $1000 but can go higher for the right unit.

If you are on a budget, than you probably can not get everything you are asking for and maybe something you really want !

If you really want 4000W RUNNING (overkilll? Have you really added up your loads?) on NG, you will need a generator that is rated at 7000W - 8000W. The advertised rating is for STARTING watts and LP or NG usually produces about 10% less.

• Bigger means more $$$
• Bigger means consumes more fuel
• Generators of that size are usually "open frame", which is louder.
• What about inverter generators? Better for electronic devices !

At that size, you will get 240V capability, but you still can not run a whole house A/C !

 

[theoldwizard1]

So here is another question - with a generator it is working to create electricity whether you need it or not.

Inverter generators throttle down.

Most CPAP companies make a 12V power supply.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Examples




"Using gasoline, the 224cc Champion engine produces 5000 starting watts and 4000 running watts and will run for 14-hours at 50% load when the 5 Gal. fuel tank is full. When using a 20 lbs propane tank, it produces 4500 starting watts and 3600 running watts and will run for 10.5 hours at 50% load. Using natural gas, the engine produces 4050 starting watts and 3240 running watts. "

• Gasoline: 8125 starting watts and 6500 running watts
• Propane: 7500 starting watts and 6000 running watts
• Natural gas: 6875 starting watts and 5500 running watts

 

[Spacecoastz]

If you really don't need 240v, then stay away from that. Otherwise you would really need to monitor how much your loads are, by 120v leg, during usage. Sending 120v, same phase, into the panel to feed both panel legs eliminates that issue. You still have to monitor total demand, but not by individual leg. In my case, both my refrigerators and microwave are on the same panel leg. I think the biggest mistake people make concerning generators is over-buying...it uses more fuel, more noise, more weight, etc for what amounts to a very temporary situation. Get an inverter that has a 30amp 120v output (NEMA TT-30R or NEMA L5-30R), purchase a converter cable, and use a 4-pin input power box.

 

[ripperd]

If you really don't need 240v, then stay away from that. Otherwise you would really need to monitor how much your loads are, by 120v leg, during usage. Sending 120v, same phase, into the panel to feed both panel legs eliminates that issue. You still have to monitor total demand, but not by individual leg. In my case, both my refrigerators and microwave are on the same panel leg. I think the biggest mistake people make concerning generators is over-buying...it uses more fuel, more noise, more weight, etc for what amounts to a very temporary situation. Get an inverter that has a 30amp 120v output (NEMA TT-30R or NEMA L5-30R), purchase a converter cable, and use a 4-pin input power box.

This. While I use my generator fairly often (camping), I thank myself every time I fire it up or fill it that I got a very quiet inverter model. At low to medium load it sips fuel and is quite quiet! I have a Wen 56380i. 57db at 1/4 load, 3400w continuous, 2.2 gallon tank lasts 8.5h at 50%. At normal loads camping I essentially fill it up in the morning, and fill it up before bed, and that's all it needs.

 

[Stuart in MN]

Someone else mentioned power stations - they're becoming more and more common these days, and some have impressive backup time ratings. So many of the DIYer YouTube channels have been sponsored by one brand or another, Bluetti is one that seems very popular. I think if budget permits I'd go with one of them in addition to a generator, you could use the power station for short term outages and then only have to pull out the generator when minutes or hours turn into days. Or, just use the power station and then periodically recharge it with the generator.

 

[The Metric System]

I think the biggest mistake people make concerning generators is over-buying...it uses more fuel, more noise, more weight, etc for what amounts to a very temporary situation.

I agree. As part of setting up our local ad-hoc microgrid during Helene we ended up swapping our suitcase inverter generator for a neighbor's brand-new open frame non-inverter ~5000W Generac branded one for several days.

It was noisy and thirsty, and the additional capacity didn't really provide any tangible benefits to us as we were still just running lights/fridge/charging anyway.

IMO getting a flexible low-cost option that covers like 90% of your application and then figuring our work-arounds for the remaining 10% is a much better solution than trying to buy a piece of equipment that will support 99-100% of what you think you want.

For example, we found that by installing a line cord on our electric water heater and simply plugging it in we were able to get plenty of hot water with our little 2200W 120V generator no problem. It took a bit of work and some load management, but was a good alternative to having a large dedicated 230V generator just to support that ancillary use.

 

[The Metric System]

I think if budget permits I'd go with one of them in addition to a generator, you could use the power station for short term outages and then only have to pull out the generator when minutes or hours turn into days

We have a power station that runs off of our 40V lawn tool batteries, which we already own and always keep charged.

It's a great low-cost solution to short outages, and was nice during the extended blackout to shift loads off the generator or to provide convenience power when we weren't running it.

 

[twinfin]

i've been rethinking the whole thing and will be backing off of the idea of permanent outside location. I have a walk out garage/basement that is really a shop (no car has seen the inside ).There is also a lot of concrete for easy rolling to a good distance from the house. So I think I can find a spot in the shop to store a generator and then roll it out when needed.

NG compatible is a deal breaker - both for inside storage and ease of operation. 120 volt only output is OK but I would like the 240 option. Somewhat light weight is probably needed - the one I linked above is 156 pounds - probably manageable. I would like low noise but the one above is 72dB - like a vacumm cleaner the internet says. I have been focused on Champion but maybe over the next few days I'll take a look at harbor freight and westinghouse.

So to summarize my requirements to date
mandatory - NG compatible, electric start, 120 output, somewhat light weight with wheels, minimum of 4000 watts running capacity wth NG

Nice to have - 120/240 volt output, higher watts - maybe 5000 with an inverter design with quiet running

Still looking to be under $1000 but can go higher for the right unit.

I've been fighting with myself all day to not over buy. I am forcing myself to remember that this is, relatively speaking, for short term survival. In the 10 hears we have lived in central NC there may have been one time where a generator would have been useful. As a result I can't justify a $10,000 generac investment.

So here is another question - with a generator it is working to create electricity whether you need it or not. Theoretically the generator would be running all the time, using NG, for potentially no good reason. I use a CPAP machine so I've been thinking about a way of powering that all night without running a huge generator - maybe a battery operated generator. Oh well - one more thing to consider.

As I was reading through your requirements, the Honda EU7000i exactly meets every point except price.

Have you thought about looking for a gently used Honda? The EU6500i is the previous version of the current Honda EU7000i. The only difference being the newer version uses electronic fuel injection giving it a slight boost in power rating. An older EU6500i might be found on the used market keeping you closer to budget.

I’d like to add another point: noise. A loud generator quickly becomes very annoying; you’ll hate it and so will your neighbors! That’s why I ditched an old, loud Coleman generator I inherited and replaced it with the Honda EU6500i. I’ve moved on from when I needed a portable generator but I still have the old Honda as a backup to my present system.

As to your last question, yes, the generator will run continuously once you’ve fired it up but at least with the inverter generators, they will spool up or down depending on load which saves fuel and reduces engine noise when operating under low demand.

To run a CPAP machine overnight, one of the battery based, so called sola-generators, seems like the best fit and silent too. Just make sure you size it correctly for anticipated needs.

Good luck whichever direction you go.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I agree. As part of setting up our local ad-hoc microgrid during Helene we ended up swapping our suitcase inverter generator for a neighbor's brand-new open frame non-inverter ~5000W Generac branded one for several days.

It was noisy and thirsty, and the additional capacity didn't really provide any tangible benefits to us as we were still just running lights/fridge/charging anyway.

The only good thing about my (30+ yo, open frame, 6250W starting) Craftsman is it can run lights and refrigerators in 4 houses !