Generator Selection and Install

[dave*99]

I’m getting increasingly concerned about connecting my 7500W Champion generator to my inlet. I have not tried it yet. I worry my control boards in the gas furnaces won’t tolerate the harmonic distortion. I asked the HVAC installer. He said I should be very concerned. I have Circa 2021 Carrier NG furnaces with ECM blower motors. I’m considering an inverter unit.

 

[Rick_Br]

but at least with the inverter generators, they will spool up or down depending on load which saves fuel and reduces engine noise when operating under low demand.

That's interesting - I didn't realize some generators would self adjust based on load demand.

Regarding CPAP - I'm going to be getting a battery backup for it - I need that whether I get a generator or not.

List of things I would want to be able to run with anticipated watts from the internet. I used the upper side for estiomates

NG forced air furnace - 800
NG hot water heater - 150
Refrigerator - 600
Keurig coffee maker - 1500
Internet modem and router - 20
lap top - 60 (for charging)
kindles (2) - 30 (charging)
45" TV - 100
Phone chargers (2) - 100
microwave (not a necessity) - 1000
Lights - only a few - 200

Total of 4560 watts X 1.2 = 5472 watts.
However - that is assuming everything nis running simultaneously. That is certainly controllable. Also the two biggest consumers (assuming my numbers are somewhat accurate) are the microwave and Keurig - both short duration events.

Rick

 

[dscheidt]

That's interesting - I didn't realize some generators would self adjust based on load demand.

That's the big advantage of them. A traditional generator output frequency varies with speed. Since AC power needs to be a constant 60 Hz, they need to spin at a constant speed to produce it. Typically that's 3600 RPM, and they have a governor that keeps the engine at that speed. (newer models often have some sort of no load detection, and can go to idle when there's no load. But as soon as there's any load at all, they go full speed).

Inverters use electronics to take the incoming power and produce constant frequency AC. The engine only needs to run fast enough to produce enough power to meet the load. So it can loaf along at idle to keep a couple lights on, and then when a big load comes on, they speed up.

The lower engine speed at partial load means less fuel use and less noise. the downside is they cost more, and have more to go wrong, but prices have come down, and reliability is very good these days. Engines still cause more problems than the electronics.

 

[Rick_Br]

That's the big advantage of them. A traditional generator output frequency varies with speed. Since AC power needs to be a constant 60 Hz, they need to spin at a constant speed to produce it. Typically that's 3600 RPM, and they have a governor that keeps the engine at that speed. (newer models often have some sort of no load detection, and can go to idle when there's no load. But as soon as there's any load at all, they go full speed).

Inverters use electronics to take the incoming power and produce constant frequency AC. The engine only needs to run fast enough to produce enough power to meet the load. So it can loaf along at idle to keep a couple lights on, and then when a big load comes on, they speed up.

The lower engine speed at partial load means less fuel use and less noise. the downside is they cost more, and have more to go wrong, but prices have come down, and reliability is very good these days. Engines still cause more problems than the electronics.

So as I am looking I see inverter open frame in descriptions. If it says inverter can I be confident it has the slow down feature? Second question - does open frame more of a noise feature - IOW open frame has nothing to do with inverters?

Rick

 

[dave*99]

So as I am looking I see inverter open frame in descriptions. If it says inverter can I be confident it has the slow down feature? Second question - does open frame more of a noise feature - IOW open frame has nothing to do with inverters?

Rick

The only way to be sure of any specific feature such as the slow down feature is to read the owners manual.
Open frame units are in general louder than cased units. Specific sound levels can be seen in various YouTube videos of product evaluations online.

 

[ericm]

You don't need $10K for a portable gen. You can find great units for under $2k, even $1K.

Any generator does not have to run 24/7 while the grid is down. YOU manage when it runs. Enough to keep fridge/freezers cold, make coffee, run washer, dryer, stove top, enough furnace time to keep house manageable, charge some lights. Then you shut it down for an hour or 3.......and so on.

This is how we managed week long outages with a 5k generator. Run the generator in the morning, turn it off for a few hours and use the UPS on the router and laptop batteries, turn it on for the evening and then off again at night.

A few years ago we replaced the 26 year old Honda EM5000 with a Honda EU7000is. It's far quieter than the old generator was. Even though we were in a rural place, we got tired of the noise ourselves. The new one uses less gas. I would spend for an inverter unit unless cash was tight.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I’m getting increasingly concerned about connecting my 7500W Champion generator to my inlet.

I ran my daughters 30 yo forced air furnace for several days on a 50 yo non-inverter 6500W Craftsman (Briggs) for several days. No issues.

I’m considering an inverter unit.

Always a good idea ! Unless you have some important 240V loads (well pump), than a 120V, 4000W (starting) inverter is adequate. See some of my other posts in this thread.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Total of 4560 watts X 1.2 = 5472 watts.
However - that is assuming everything not running simultaneously. That is certainly controllable. Also the two biggest consumers (assuming my numbers are somewhat accurate) are the microwave and Keurig - both short duration events.

You could EASILY run on a 4000W (starting) generator, if you find one that meets your other requirements.

 

[theoldwizard1]

So as I am looking I see inverter open frame in descriptions. If it says inverter can I be confident it has the slow down feature?

Yes !

Second question - does open frame more of a noise feature - IOW open frame has nothing to do with inverters?

Yes, open-frame generators are much louder (most people mistakenly believe that most of the noise comes from the exhaust; it does not) Most open-frame generator are non-inverter !

 

[theoldwizard1]

This will run you loads. Build a quiet box (see previous posts).

 

[dave*99]

I’m getting increasingly concerned about connecting my 7500W Champion generator to my inlet. I have not tried it yet. I worry my control boards in the gas furnaces won’t tolerate the harmonic distortion. I asked the HVAC installer. He said I should be very concerned. I have Circa 2021 Carrier NG furnaces with ECM blower motors. I’m considering an inverter unit.

I ran my daughters 30 yo forced air furnace for several days on a 50 yo non-inverter 6500W Craftsman (Briggs) for several days. No issues.

Thanks for quoting me entirely out of context. If I had a 30 YO furnace with a simple gas valve and a PSC motor I would not have made my post.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Thanks for quoting me entirely out of context. If I had a 30 YO furnace with a simple gas valve and a PSC motor I would not have made my post.

30 yo and fully ELECTRONICALLY CONTROLLED !

 

[Rick_Br]

I'm backing away from this for a few days. I am having a lot of trouble finding a Triful machine that is an inverter with quiet technology in a reasonable wattage range. I think I need a break. I have been focusing on champion so maybe I need to expand my search?

Rick

 

[dave*99]

I'm backing away from this for a few days. I am having a lot of trouble finding a Triful machine that is an inverter with quiet technology in a reasonable wattage range. I think I need a break. I have been focusing on champion so maybe I need to expand my search?

Rick

Tri fuel inverter enclosed generators are on the higher price echelon. This Westinghouse seems to be one of the lower priced units of that class.

https://www.homedepot.com/pep/Westinghouse-8-200-Watt-Remote-Electric-Start-Tri-Fuel-Gas-Propane-Natural-Gas-Powered-Inverter-Generator-with-CO-Sensor-iGen8200TFc/338022517

 

[theoldwizard1]

I'm backing away from this for a few days. I am having a lot of trouble finding a Triful machine that is an inverter with quiet technology in a reasonable wattage range. I think I need a break. I have been focusing on champion so maybe I need to expand my search?

Tri fuel inverter enclosed generators are on the higher price echelon. This Westinghouse seems to be one of the lower priced units of that class.

What dave says !

I don't think you will find a "quiet technology", tri fuel generator, in your wattage range and AT YOUR BUDGET !

You have paralysis by analysis ! Buy the open frame one I recommended and build a "quite box" like in the video I mentioned before.

 

[Rick_Br]

The Westinghouse linked above seems to satisfy all my requirements except price. The champion listed above ($661) has low running amps with NG (3250 but that may be OK) and would be noisier.

I've got a guy coming Tuesday to give me an estimate for a NG line - that will be the first decision point -Trifuel or Dual fuel. I suspect the NG line install will be as much or more than the generator.

Rick

 

[larry4406]

I've got a guy coming Tuesday to give me an estimate for a NG line - that will be the first decision point -Trifuel or Dual fuel. I suspect the NG line install will be as much or more than the generator.

Rick

If the natural gas line will be placed under the deck for the generator, run a gas line for your grill while at it.

I do not know if generator placement under a deck is advised or if that is still your plan.

 

[Rick_Br]

If the natural gas line will be placed under the deck for the generator, run a gas line for your grill while at it.

I do not know if generator placement under a deck is advised or if that is still your plan.

I threw the idea of under the deck over board. The generator will be placed 20' from the house on a concrete drive

Rick

 

[mm08822]

Make sure it is sized large enough for the load AND distance.
The real cost is in the labor so size it bigger and it won't ever be an issue. E.G. - 3/4 vs 1/2", etc.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I threw the idea of under the deck over board. The generator will be placed 20' from the house on a concrete drive

So are you planning on running a 25' NG hose from the house and then just leaving the generator in the open ?

Buy/have built a deck box next to the house. Use 1' x 1' paving bricks/stones for the base. Add insulation and ventilation (probably will need a fan). Make sure the exhaust has a metal deflector so it is not hitting the insulation directly.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I've got a guy coming Tuesday to give me an estimate for a NG line - that will be the first decision point -Trifuel or Dual fuel.

Unless you already have a LARGE LP tank installed, FORGET USING LP !

 

[Rick_Br]

So are you planning on running a 25' NG hose from the house and then just leaving the generator in the open ?

That is what I would do - champion triful compressors come with a 25' hose. What do you see as the problem with that?

Not interested in a generator with NG next to the house with some complicated housing for it

 

[Firstram]

That's interesting - I didn't realize some generators would self adjust based on load demand.

Regarding CPAP - I'm going to be getting a battery backup for it - I need that whether I get a generator or not.

List of things I would want to be able to run with anticipated watts from the internet. I used the upper side for estiomates

NG forced air furnace - 800
NG hot water heater - 150
Refrigerator - 600
Keurig coffee maker - 1500
Internet modem and router - 20
lap top - 60 (for charging)
kindles (2) - 30 (charging)
45" TV - 100
Phone chargers (2) - 100
microwave (not a necessity) - 1000
Lights - only a few - 200

Total of 4560 watts X 1.2 = 5472 watts.
However - that is assuming everything nis running simultaneously. That is certainly controllable. Also the two biggest consumers (assuming my numbers are somewhat accurate) are the microwave and Keurig - both short duration events.

Rick

Skipping the microwave and coffee maker drops your needs down to a Honda EU2200. Add an interlock to your panel and use it with gasoline until you upgrade to propane or NG. Cold brew coffee tastes better anyway!

It is more than you want to spend but, we’ve powered our house through an interlock for 10 days at a time. I have a 50 foot cord and an adapter cord that ties L1 and L2 together to power both sides of the panel. I added a tri-fuel kit from Hutch mountain (even more $) and a 20lb propane tank will last almost 24 hours. I actually have 2 of them and can parallel them for twice the power when needed. I did buy them for my business so, using them at home is a bonus.

I know quite a few people who have had ok luck with the cheaper generators but I don’t know a soul who has had problems with their Hondas!

 

[theoldwizard1]

Not interested in a generator with NG next to the house with some complicated housing for it

Complicated ? Buying a deck box at Home Depot adding some insulation and a fan is complicated ???? I guess some people are just not DIYers.

You will never be happy until you buy a whole house generator with a maintenance contract ! I ope you have a BIG WALLET !

 

[Rick_Br]

Complicated ? Buying a deck box at Home Depot adding some insulation and a fan is complicated ???? I guess some people are just not DIYers.

You will never be happy until you buy a whole house generator with a maintenance contract ! I ope you have a BIG WALLET !

everything I have looked at says to place generator away from the house so that is what I'll be doing thank you.

You have no idea what will make me happy or how big my wallet is but I will guarantee you there is no whole house generator in my future regardless of the size of my wallet

Rick

 

[Dakotadadv8]

Honda gens are nice. I like going bigger than needed. You never know. I like transfer switch get an electrician. If you have $ go with whole house generac. I would still have a potable generator with whole house just in case SHTF, redundancy. Also have wood burning stoves. Prepared do not rely on others if down long term.

 

[Dakotadadv8]

I’m getting increasingly concerned about connecting my 7500W Champion generator to my inlet. I have not tried it yet. I worry my control boards in the gas furnaces won’t tolerate the harmonic distortion. I asked the HVAC installer. He said I should be very concerned. I have Circa 2021 Carrier NG furnaces with ECM blower motors. I’m considering an inverter unit.

Honda eu7000 or em6500sx Ivr tech.

 

[dave*99]

Honda eu7000 or em6500sx Ivr tech.

I have a natural gas hookup next to my inlet. So my next generator will be trifuel. I’ll either convert my existing Champion or replace it with an inverter trifuel.

 

[dave*99]

That is what I would do - champion triful compressors come with a 25' hose. What do you see as the problem with that?

Not interested in a generator with NG next to the house with some complicated housing for it

I have a Gentent. You might consider one if you need to operate in the rain. I have not used it yet.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

I have a Gentent. You might consider one if you need to operate in the rain. I have not used it yet.

Look nice! My main concern would be the wind blowing it away………. I had a few 50+ MPH gusts yesterday that would have most likely blown the cover away.

When I was using my Honda (job site and at home) I had a 1/4” piece of plywood cut that overhung the frame by 12” and I secured it with bungee cords……… The top of the plywood was coated with Flex Seal for weather proofing.

I saw one portable generator that was placed into a small Suncast plastic storage shed and when the wind blew the door closed (the owner left the doors open during operation) the entire box and generator caught fire.…… Thankfully the house only suffered minor damage to the siding but the generator was "cooked"

 

[mm08822]

Look nice! My main concern would be the wind blowing it away………. I had a few 50+ MPH gusts yesterday that would have most likely blown the cover away.

When I was using my Honda (job site and at home) I had a 1/4” piece of plywood cut that overhung the frame by 12” and I secured it with bungee cords……… The top of the plywood was coated with Flex Seal for weather proofing.

I saw one portable generator that was placed into a small Suncast plastic storage shed and when the wind blew the door closed (the owner left the doors open during operation) the entire box and generator caught fire.…… Thankfully the house only suffered minor damage to the siding but the generator was "cooked"

Good point. Most emergency gens will be used during rough weather. Cobbling up something in fair weather is a false assurance. Need to consider wind, soaking, driven rain, snow, ice beating on it. Same goes for a purchased cover.

And being able to refill easily.

 

[Rick_Br]

I have a Gentent. You might consider one if you need to operate in the rain. I have not used it yet.

I saw those tents and will likely end up getting something like that
Rick

 

[Dakotadadv8]

50 mph wind gusts gentent still on. Not sure about 70mph. Good product. Always worried about generator with legs, Chain, sleep with 1 eye open, Surefire, S&W, etc.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

I saw those tents and will likely end up getting something like that
Rick

"IF" you are thinking about buying a "generator tent" you should grab one soon because they are now discounted on Amazon and www.gentent.com OR you can go the plywood cover route like in my #110 post.

TIP! It is important to have a generator cover available (and ready to go) for inclement weather.…….. Better to have it and not need it RATHER to need one and not have it.

 

[dave*99]

"IF" you are thinking about buying a "generator tent" you should grab one soon because they are now discounted on Amazon and www.gentent.com OR you can go the plywood cover route like in my #110 post.

TIP! It is important to have a generator cover available (and ready to go) for inclement weather.…….. Better to have it and not need it RATHER to need one and not have it.

I bought one that is specific to my Champion generator. It was actually cheaper. Perhaps because it did not come with a universal set of mounting hardware to fit a whole bunch of mounting variations.

It has a zippered opening for easy refueling.

 

[dave*99]

50 mph wind gusts gentent still on. Not sure about 70mph. Good product. Always worried about generator with legs, Chain, sleep with 1 eye open, Surefire, S&W, etc.

Gentent seems to think they have that covered.

GenTent products are independently lab-tested and rated to withstand
up to 70 MPH forecast winds(approximately 35-45 MPH ground-level wind speeds). Designed for severe weather, they also handle hurricane-force precipitation (12 inches per hour) and 18-inch (55 lbs) snow loads.
Key details regarding wind resistance:

• Wind Rating Definition: The 70 MPH rating refers to wind speeds measured at 10 meters (33 feet) above the ground.
• Ground Level Impact: Due to ground-level friction, a 70 MPH forecast wind translates to roughly 35-45 MPH wind speed actually hitting the generator.
• Structure: They feature a durable design with flexible supports, allowing them to remain stable in high winds, say GenTent Safety Canopies and GenTent Safety Canopies.

 

[Rick_Br]

While waiting for the gas line estimate - I was talking to a friend about generators and he has a Honda EM5000SX that he may want to sell. No price yet. From what I can see this unit 3500 or so running watts, is not an inverter but has "advanced voltage regulation" that produces clean power for sensitive electronics. It is rated at mid 60's decibels. It is gasoline powered only. This may be an option if the gas line is over priced. Any thoughts on this model and reasonable pricing for a several year old unit?

Rick

 

[dave*99]

Do some research on marketplace, yes I know it has it's drawbacks....
I'd say about $1712.50 on average.

 

[Rick_Br]

Do some research on marketplace, yes I know it has it's drawbacks....
I'd say about $1712.50 on average.

Thanks Dave - Are you saying the EM5000SX has drawbacks or FBMP?

Rick

 

[dave*99]

Thanks Dave - Are you saying the EM5000SX has drawbacks or FBMP?

Rick

Oh definitely FBMP. Honda has a much better reputation than FBMP.

Circle back on exactly what your goals are - how many outages do you get and how do you want the house to operate when there is an outage. Make sure you understand your goals and what budget you want to throw at it.

If I get a summer outage, I'd probably not even wheel out the genny for the first couple hours. In the winter I'd move faster especially if there is a risk of freezing pipes.