Homemade electrolysis. What do you use?

[zkling]

that reminds me of another product I was thinking of dunking in the tank. old chrome wrenches, socket and such where the chrome is flaking off.

good or bad idea to put in the E tank? or just use the wire brushes on the grinders to clean them up?

Bad idea in general.

 

[Fretters]

Bad idea in general.

Why?

 

[drivesitfar]

so vinegar bath or molasses for chrome? or should I just wire wheel off the old chrome? hard to do on sockets though.

 

[Fretters]

There's no problem that I'm aware of putting them in the vat, but I'm willing to stand corrected on that point. If it's at the anode side, different thing, but the cathode side, worst case scenario is that you would end up with any loose coating flaking off. Any sound coating would remain.

 

[drivesitfar]

I think Z said no galvanized or maybe zinc because might create a poison fume and not sure I have that correct. maybe chrome does the same thing to a lesser extent and since your tank is outside not a big deal except to the birds and the squirrels and other critters running about in your yard?

 

[zkling]

Why?

Depending on the type of chrome plating, it's condition and again the current density, it can thinned, completely removed or not harmed at all. Thus the in general statement. On parts with a thick hard chrome coating you would probably be fine. Therefore it is a gamble piece to piece. Personally I wouldn't, but up to you.

Also don't use this method for black oxide finished tools that are in decent condition.

 

[Fretters]

Ah. On the same wavelength then. I wasn't sure if there some other problem I was unaware of. IMHO, any removal of chrome is a good thing. I'm in the camp of thinking it's preferable to have shut of any poor quality or loosely bonded material from the piece rather than trying to keep it intact. That truly is just my own personal preference though.

 

[drivesitfar]

thanks Z. would you just dip the chrome and black oxy ones in vinegar or do you have some other method?

maybe you just sell all the rusty tools and just keep the nice ones from estate and garage sales? not likely since you know quite a bit about the treatments and even a good tool in your box can go bad after a while in some parts of the world.

Have shut on the same idea as headed towards the skip?

 

[Fretters]

Have shut on the same idea as headed towards the skip?

Pretty much, aye. (Have|get) shut means to get rid of.

 

[drivesitfar]

QUOTE=Fretters;3769753]Pretty much, aye. (Have|get) shut means to get rid of.[/QUOTE]

i'm learning my old English while you are helping me learn more about how to make good old steel shine.[

 

[texasfiremedic]

What is the mixture on the vinegar and molasses solution?

 

[texasfiremedic]

Maybe I'm just not reading it right. mixture or straight?

 

[drivesitfar]

I will check my notes but I think only about a cup per 5 gallons?

 

[coolreed]

I built an electrolysis system and it worked pretty well. I followed instructions list on the GJ using a battery charger. That being said,......

I actually get better results using abrasives and steel brush wheels on an offset grinder.

The electrolysis takes a long time depending on the item and severity of the problem. Grinding is right now.

Good Luck

 

[JW in MO]

Every one of my projects seem to grow to proportions I never expect. I use Sodium Hydroxide, (one Tablespoon per gallon), in my tank, it cleans off all paint as well as rust. You can get it at a good plumbing supply or I did pick some up at Westlakes under the name of Thrift. I followed instructions from the following link: http://www.fboerger.com/restorationtips.html#electrolysis
It does take some time but I look at it as a cheap helper, I can do other things while the tank does its thing. This tank is 275gal, I have access to plenty of stainless tubing so that is what I use for the anode. The shop is pretty well ventilated so I don't have an issue with the fumes.

 

[drivesitfar]

here is a member's new graphite tank (using graphite instead of rebar or steel for less clean up) that he is setting up for his next vise projects once the weather warms up again. he shared this with me and can mention that it's his if he chooses too.

the graphite squares were bought off of Ebay and are behind the white checkerboard plastic protectors. i'm also including his little battery charger that is the power source. he has used it with steel and it worked fine and ready to use with graphite soon.

 

[drivesitfar]

This member's description and pictures made me think that I could do this Electrolysis process which before he did I barely knew what it was. I had seen pictures of the results and with this step by step little instruction he gave me I started the process of thinking I could do this.

if my shop hadn't been moved the last few months and we were in the warm weather I would have started this sooner and now with all the new information from this thread I have no doubt that I can do this process when i'm ready to. of course i'm always willing to hear any better ideas on how to improve what has already been said.

The basic components: Bucket, U shaped plates inside the bucket, PH+, and a battery charger. The top Rebar is for hanging small parts from. For hanging I use the wire they sell for rebar; cheap, I have a lifetime supply, and it's plain iron...



A shot inside at the heavily pitted anode. The blocks are concrete brick scraps, so I can rest heavy items on the bottom and not be shorted out.



A little magic Dist...



Just add water, not quite over the top of the anode. I don't like the positive lead clip in the electrolyte.



Set to high, 6V and it starts to bubble... Note the polarity: Red to "Rust"; (The Sacrificial Anode) and black to ""de-rust"; the parts, only in this case they get it secondarily from the hanging wire and the rebar.



An hour or so later it gets scummy...



I hopes this helps all of you as much as it helped me and a big thanks to the member that did all the work giving me these pictures and details a few months ago.

Questions or comments??

 

[drivesitfar]

Here's a couple of links regarding the process -

http://heinkels.blogspot.com/2013/10/rust-never-sleeps.html

http://www.rickswoodshopcreations.com/Miscellaneous/Rust_Removal.htm

thanks for adding these links and just had a few minutes to read them. the second one by ricks wood shop has a lot of information that I can refer to if needed once I start up my E tank.

Fretters: did you make that little metal basket type cage because I don't think it is something I'll find just knocking about anywhere?

 

[zkling]

thanks Z. would you just dip the chrome and black oxy ones in vinegar or do you have some other method?

maybe you just sell all the rusty tools and just keep the nice ones from estate and garage sales? not likely since you know quite a bit about the treatments and even a good tool in your box can go bad after a while in some parts of the world.

Have shut on the same idea as headed towards the skip?

Chrome stripping is a whole nother topic, but if I happen to come across a socket or wrench with a few rust spots I gently hit it with the dremel wire wheel clamped in the vise. The very narrow wire wheel helps to get at just the rust and not the effect much of the chrome. However usually the surrounding chrome is loose and will be lifted due to propagation of the rust. I generally avoid heavily rusted chrome tools. I will only strip small chrome parts and quite honestly common size sockets just aren't worth the time.

For the black oxide or bluing (term for firearm finish) finished tools, remember that black oxide is a form of passivated iron oxide, aka rust. So anything that will remove rust will remove black oxide. Sure you can put black oxide or blued items in the tank but they will come out without their finish. Same goes for anything that will remove rust such as evapo rust or naval jelly, they will strip black oxide and bluing off.

For the electrolysis tanking of chrome parts, it's not so much the effect that will be had upon the chromed item, but the potentially hazardous solution you will be left with. Again without knowing what type of chrome or underlying coating on the item it's a gamble as to what will happen. Commercially in re chroming a part the existing coating is stripped electrochemically in a process very similar to electrolysis rust removal. It produces a very nasty waste solution is a one reason why plating shops are so heavily regulated.

 

[bigcaddy]

I've got a few setups so a shock tank is never out of reach. The home tank uses a big Tupperware/ rubber made tub with steel anodes and a stripped welding lead as my connections.

The shop tank is a small trash can on wheels with eyebolts that contain graphit rods. They are fragile but clean off easily.

 

[zkling]

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet or not but I'll add this bit. You want the anodes to be clean, which usually requires cleaning every few runs. They will get very NASTY. Just pull them out and hit with an aggressive cup brush.

so vinegar bath or molasses for chrome? or should I just wire wheel off the old chrome? hard to do on sockets though.

See previous response. Depending on if you are trying to save the chrome or not and how loose it is you can media blast, grind or chemically strip the chrome plating off. The largest thing I have ever completely de-chromed is a rifle bolt, and that is about all I want to do.

 

[drivesitfar]

Zkling: thanks again for the awesome descriptions of the process. I think I have a dremel tool i'm going to have to find to just get inside some of the hard to reach spots anyway. great tips on the blueing and chrome.

Caddy: any pictures you can add now or post would be great for us and future readers. do you use this process often or just now and then on some of your vises and rusty tools?

Z: I think Jason sort of mentioned it to start the process, but really good to know you should pay attention to them and keep them pretty clean every time you start a new batch. would a wire wheel on a bench grinder do a good job too? some of the guys are going to graphite anodes so would this be another benefit or do you know??

 

[zkling]

Z: I think Jason sort of mentioned it to start the process, but really good to know you should pay attention to them and keep them pretty clean every time you start a new batch. would a wire wheel on a bench grinder do a good job too? some of the guys are going to graphite anodes so would this be another benefit or do you know??

After you run the tank for a while, if the parts are pretty rusty, the solution and anodes get really nasty. I guess a bench grinder would work, but it's nasty work hence I use the angle grinder cup brush towards the edge of the drive way with the hose. It throws the gunk everywhere. I wouldn't want it all over the grinder or in a shop. Plus keep in mind my anodes are ~25" long x 6" wide pieces of steel. It's much easier to just step on it and hit it with an angle grinder compared to trying to hold it against a bench grinder. I guess if you are using rebar as an anode the bench grinder might be easier, but still a mess.

As for the graphite anodes, IDK. I tried it once on the small scale with some scraps, and while it is cleaner it isn't worth the associated costs IMHO. Unless you are chummy with the local EDM shop or graphite supplier large pieces of graphite are expensive and fragile. Too fancy for me. YMMV though.

 

[drivesitfar]

I have a nice little old B & D bench grinder on a stand with a wire wheel on it that I can pull outside for the dirty jobs. other than the shooting wires I have to pull out of my sweatshirts it works pretty good cleaning up steel.

I also have hand grinders with nice cup wire wheels if I can figure out how to hold them and the hose at the same time.

some of the guys I know bought the graphite pieces off of Ebay and yes they are not cheap. I have plenty of rebar and pieces of steel laying around for cheap almost throw away type anodes so I may go that option and wait to hear how the graphite versions work.

should I clean the rebar to bare steel on every fill up or does that depend on the build up? it looks like Jason cleaned his first rebar pieces to look like new before he started that first batch up.

 

[zkling]

I don't use the grinder and hose at the same time. Rise, brush, rise, brush repeat. The hose is for cleanup and checking progress.

I wouldn't use rebar in the first place as it has very little effective surface area, but do as you like. No you don't need it super clean. After you run the tank for a while the electrodes build up a layer on the anodes that looks like something you would pull out of sea water. You just want to knock it off.

 

[bigcaddy]

Zkling: thanks again for the awesome descriptions of the process. I think I have a dremel tool i'm going to have to find to just get inside some of the hard to reach spots anyway. great tips on the blueing and chrome.

Caddy: any pictures you can add now or post would be great for us and future readers. do you use this process often or just now and then on some of your vises and rusty tools?

Z: I think Jason sort of mentioned it to start the process, but really good to know you should pay attention to them and keep them pretty clean every time you start a new batch. would a wire wheel on a bench grinder do a good job too? some of the guys are going to graphite anodes so would this be another benefit or do you know??

It would be a while before I could post pics but I don't use it all the time. It works really well on crusty cast iron pans that need to be cleaned and reseasoned. Much safe to deal with then lye/water mix or HC acid and there is no fear of letting it run for a few days.

 

[drivesitfar]

Zkling: I figured you weren't using it at the same time, but I had to ask. that makes more sense to me now knowing that you had fairly large flat pieces of steel plate instead of using a hand grinder on a few pieces of rebar.

now I have plenty of fairly large flat pieces of steel that sound like they might work better than even the one inch rebar I own. i'll have to get everything up and ready to go and post some pictures.

i'm sure Fretters is probably sleeping over there in England so wondering if you have ever seen the steel basket he had wired up to clean the small parts in? I don't have a clue where to find one or can I use a smaller bucket inside a bigger tub or bucket that has very small holes in the bottom that I can set inside the tank?

 

[zkling]

Yes. I've seen the basket idea. Not a fan personally as I have a smaller bench unit for cleaning small parts. This is a line of sight process and you really want to minimize the distance between the anodes and the part. I settled on the 55gal drum as it perfectly fit most of my larger items including entire 14" bandsaw frames. Otherwise for nut and bolt size items I just use a bench grinder wire wheel or a quick dip in an acid bath. On my little tank same principal, just smaller parts are suspended by thin wires instead of chain.

 

[drivesitfar]

Z: do you have any pictures of either your big tank or small bench top one to post? I have a good idea what you are talking about and pictures always help me and maybe the others see what you are saying.

thanks for all your knowledge you have been sharing with me and for the thread tonight.

 

[Fretters]

The basket was a home made jobbie, made out of a sheet of mesh I have here, due to the same problem you're having. Trying to find a basket worth it's salt ain't easy. If you look at the photo's, the copper wire is what's holding it together. It was made from one rectangular piece, for the body, with a circular piece cut for the base then just pushed in, which is why there's the spiderweb of wire at the bottom of the basket.

I'd agree with ZK on the graphite/carbon rods btw. They do last longer and create less crud in the solution, but they aren't a necessity. One of those things where if you happen to drop on some use them, but I wouldn't go out of my way to try getting hold of some.

Otherwise for nut and bolt size items I just use a bench grinder wire wheel or a quick dip in an acid bath. On my little tank same principal, just smaller parts are suspended by thin wires instead of chain.

I'll agree that a basket has it's place. One thing I've generally stopped doing is small tools and tool bits, unless they're actually worth the hassle. It's the simple fact of time and effort as to whether they're actually worth doing though, not the electrolysis process per se. The same decision process would be applied whichever method they might be cleaned by. For a ten bob bit which is easily replaced, it really ain't worth derusting them, for example. For an original nut which would look silly with a new replacement, however, there's no choice to make. Restoration every time.

For nuts, studs and bolts, with the way I restore things, the basket is pretty much a necessity. Wire wheels would clean the parts to excess, (I don't do shiny. I like my restored equipment to look it's age, wherever possible, not to look like it's just stepped out of the factory. Plus, I detest using wire wheels), and any acid cleaning is something I try to avoid like the plague due to the dismal and inconsistent results dependant upon material. One antique test piece was somewhat ruined by crappy results from using acid. There won't be a second piece. Stringing small bits onto a wire is also something I'm sick to the back teeth of doing too, hence why they now go in the basket. For small parts, the basket really cannot be beaten. I truly would class a basket as an absolute must for anyone who does lots of small parts with electrolysis.

This is a line of sight process...

Just quoting your post here due to you being the only one who has mentioned it, not for any other reason. The whole line of sight thing is a completely misleading notion. The process is not line of sight. It's simply path of least resistance, which in a fairly poor conduction solution means that there is no best path, hence all of the surface area will be affected by the process. Results are merely improved by providing as much anode area around the piece as possible.

Going back to the subject of the chrome, what exactly is it that's the problem with that? Still not able to discern exactly what the problem is which you're highlighting, from your posts. Just trying to make sure I'm upto speed on any possible problems here, not disagreeing, (as yet ), btw. Is it just the fragments being left in the solution which is the problem, or are you saying that some of the components of the chrome may actually dissolve into the solution? Any links to further info? Cheers.

 

[Fretters]

I'll take a photo of the larger tank I use later. It's approx. 4'x2'x2', made out of old 3/4" plywood and lined with DPM.

Edit: Here's the large vat.

It's been stood unused for a while, so looks a bit manky. There's a piece of rubber matting in the bottom to stop the DPM being punctured when I lay heavy pieces in there.

 

[EOC_Jason]

Two things...

First about the anodes (in my case the rebar), yes after a run they are covered in crud and very nasty. I usually wipe them off first, most of it will come off that way, then I use my wire wheel on my bench grinder to re-clean them off.

Second, I think this is probably common sense, but still worth noting. Make sure your parts do NOT touch the anodes, otherwise you would short out your battery charger!

If you let the tank sit over-night without it running you will see all the rust settle to the bottom of the tank.

If you need to leave your tank off for a while (say you don't want to run it overnight while you are asleep), LEAVE THE PART IN THERE SUBMERGED. Then just plug it in the next morning or whenever...

When you pull the part out, you need to take a wire brush to it then hose it off... You will see a bunch of black crush wash away. People say you don't want to let it dry with that on... I haven't done the research into what that layer of black is, I just do what I'm told... lol

 

[drivesitfar]

Fretters: this is worth repeating because a great idea and won't find it over here at all that I know of and anybody that knows of a source please post it.

"The basket was a home made jobbie, made out of a sheet of mesh I have here, due to the same problem you're having. Trying to find a basket worth it's salt ain't easy. If you look at the photo's, the copper wire is what's holding it together. It was made from one rectangular piece, for the body, with a circular piece cut for the base then just pushed in, which is why there's the spiderweb of wire at the bottom of the basket."

i'm planning on mostly using the Electrolysis for big vises and bigger pieces of steel and using small tubs for vinegar or molasses/water solutions for the small parts, but if I find a nice piece of wire mesh I may attempt to make a basket like you have made.

thanks for the tip on the rubber on the bottom because even though I'm going to use a pretty thick plastic tub I can place a 3/4 or half inch thick piece of rubber on the bottom to prevent any damage if I drop one of the heavy vise pieces.

so a recap of what not to put in the "E" tank:
1) no galvanized
2) no zinc
3) no stainless
4) no chrome

please input on why not to put the above in the tank especially the chrome?

also as Jason mentions in his post don't let the positive lead or parts touch the ones that are negatively charged (don't cross the streams as our Ghostbuster friends would say) or you'll probably be buying a new charger.

Positive lead to the anodes (rebar or pieces of steel that remain in the tub and cleaned up somewhat after use and Negative to the piece you are trying to clean.

one thing I think I might add to my tank is one of those little 4 wheel moving or carpet dollies so I can put the tank under my bench when not in use and easily out again when I need to cook something.

one more thing I don't think we have touched on yet. how often do we drain the tank? I know we need to pull out the anodes to clean or at least brush them off and do we drain the tank at that time too?

by the way how much is a ten bob bit?? (15 cents US?)

 

[zkling]

Z: do you have any pictures of either your big tank or small bench top one to post? I have a good idea what you are talking about and pictures always help me and maybe the others see what you are saying.

thanks for all your knowledge you have been sharing with me and for the thread tonight.

As soon as it thaws out I'll take a pic I forgot to drain it this year.

 

[drivesitfar]

both you and Fretters have your E tanks outside. I think you said you have your little one on a bench inside your shop though. are the tanks outside because of space issues or just because they don't smell good? or for the toxic fumes?

I guess if I put mine on wheels I can roll it outside when i'm using it and working in my shop, but i'd have to leave inside cooking at night because I don't live next to my shop.

 

[zkling]

Just quoting your post here due to you being the only one who has mentioned it, not for any other reason. The whole line of sight thing is a completely misleading notion. The process is not line of sight. It's simply path of least resistance, which in a fairly poor conduction solution means that there is no best path, hence all of the surface area will be affected by the process. Results are merely improved by providing as much anode area around the piece as possible.

Going back to the subject of the chrome, what exactly is it that's the problem with that? Still not able to discern exactly what the problem is which you're highlighting, from your posts. Just trying to make sure I'm upto speed on any possible problems here, not disagreeing, (as yet ), btw. Is it just the fragments being left in the solution which is the problem, or are you saying that some of the components of the chrome may actually dissolve into the solution? Any links to further info? Cheers.

First off, slick setup. I like the way it looks very inconspicuous in a back yard compared to a large white barrel or the Rubbermaid container and a bunch of wires sticking out. One thing I've wondered, do you think there is a performance difference between a shallow long tank vs a narrow deep tank? Gas exchange surface area

I'm going to still stand by my "line of sight" comment as I've experienced first hand that is the case. Without getting to deep into the the process, but when ever I have an enclosed vessel I will throw a anode down the center to aid in cleaning the inside. Did a couple MX tanks this way.

As for the chrome issue. I can write more in depth this evening or you can do a bit of research on your own and draw your own conclusions. The issue is the solution you are left with, not with the part. Depending on the type of chrome there are multiple parts to a chrome process, a base coating of different metals, usually copper. Without knowing what all you are dealing with you won't know for sure the effects the rust removal process will have on the plating. Chrome plating is stripped in industry in a very similar method to electrolysis rust removal but with an acid water mixture.

No I'm not trying to be a tree huger with the disposal issues, but I do realize the harm we do to the planet and fellow humans by altering common chemicals. I'm not sure what the governing agency over there is, but over here the EPA can be a real stickler and for good reasons. You can do as you like but I personally won't put chrome in an electrolysis tank. I guess if you really wanted to do it you could send a sample of the solution out for analysis, then dispose of according to the results.

both you and Fretters have your E tanks outside. I think you said you have your little one on a bench inside your shop though. are the tanks outside because of space issues or just because they don't smell good? or for the toxic fumes?

I guess if I put mine on wheels I can roll it outside when i'm using it and working in my shop, but i'd have to leave inside cooking at night because I don't live next to my shop.

Space, mess, and potability. The "fumes" aren't toxic, but it gives off hydrogen gas. Remember the Hindenburg?

The one on my bench is a little portable setup. It may have 16oz max cap. It gets stored away and the solution poured into a bottle. Space is a big issues for me.

I only drain, or more so evaporate off, once a year when it freezes and the barrel goes in the shed for the winter. I forgot this year. Since I don't drain it much I try to make sure the parts are clean that go in, which is why I mentioned a while back that I scrub and brush everything that goes into the setup.

 

[drivesitfar]

so no grinding in the shop if the E tank is fired up or they might send me and my stuff to the "skip" if anything is left of me and them.

good point on the Chrome by products that are created in the mix.

looking forward to your (Zkling) write up later tonight. have a great day.

 

[larry4406]

I used a mundane piece of carbon steel expanded metal as the anode. Laced a copper wire to it and rolled the expanded metal to line the inside of a 5 gallon bucket.

Drilled the top of the bucket to hold a piece of PVC that I use to hang the part from. The wire is from a scrap piece of 14/2 Romex.

I used Arm and Hammer Washing Soda from Walmart. Old school style Craftsman battery charger. Works great.

 

[Fretters]

First off, slick setup. I like the way it looks very inconspicuous in a back yard compared to a large white barrel or the Rubbermaid container and a bunch of wires sticking out. One thing I've wondered, do you think there is a performance difference between a shallow long tank vs a narrow deep tank? Gas exchange surface area

Cheers. The design was more inspired by the materials which I had available than owt else, combined with the fact that I wanted to avoid using a plastic container simply for reason of robustness. It's survived better than I thought it would though, (including the eldest lads attempts at damaging it by dropping his end of a cast hacksaw bed into it as we were lugging it out), and there hasn't been a single leak upto just.

On the dimensions front, can't really say as I've ever noted any real difference due to shape/size of container. Proximity of piece to anodes and size of anodes seems to be the main factor in effectiveness, from what I've noted so far.

I'm going to still stand by my "line of sight" comment as I've experienced first hand that is the case. Without getting to deep into the the process, but when ever I have an enclosed vessel I will throw a anode down the center to aid in cleaning the inside. Did a couple MX tanks this way.

I wholeheartedly agree that it does make a difference, where the anodes are placed. It's just how the whole "line of sight" thing is generally put across which I find misleading, hence why it irks me somewhat. To say that something is line of sight infers that it won't work on anything outside of that line, which isn't true. Something which is 'hidden' will take longer than a portion which has an anode close by, but it will still work nonetheless. If whomever had coined that term in regard to this process had written something more along the lines of: "All round anode coverage vastly improves the process overall", that would be realistic. Not meaning to be argumentative, btw. It's merely one of my minor niggles, that sentence, so just trying to clarify it somewhat.

 

[texasfiremedic]

Just giving it a bump. Still would like to see other set ups.