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Latest fab. project - downhill racer

iajonesy

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Iowa
There is a hill in Oklahoma??????

Sorry,I couldn't help myself. That is the coolest thread ever. As a new grandfather,I can't wait to do some projects with my grandson. I hope they turn out as nice as yours did. Being a grandpa is the best.

Mike
 
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Jeff Ivers

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Oklahoma
Thank you. The rules on the race limit the weight to 200 pounds, not counting the driver. The winner was much older and heavier. I am debating whether to change the steering or just wait for my grandson to get older and heavier!

Fourth! Congrats man thats cool. Once the steering is dialed in, he should be a menace.
 
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Jeff Ivers

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Oklahoma
Thank you. I appreciate the comments on the steering. I have wondered about trying to find and install an actual steering box. Any ideas on where to cannabalize one on the cheap? My grandson came back from his first run all excited because he went so fast his eyes watered!

Hey, congratulations to you and your grandson.

Sounds like you both had fun.

And ~30 mph in something like that, close to the ground, is pretty darn fast!

re: steering Tighten up the steering links so things don't 'bounce' as much and change the steering 'leverage' so that there is less 'leverage' (smaller diameter steering wheel, shorten steering link arms , etc. Makes steering effort harder but slows down the steering response and makes it take more effort to turn the steering wheel and get a steering change.)
 
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Jeff Ivers

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Oklahoma
Yeah, there are a few hills - but we had to drive from a southeast suburb of Tulsa to a northwest suburb to find one!

There is a hill in Oklahoma??????

Sorry,I couldn't help myself. That is the coolest thread ever. As a new grandfather,I can't wait to do some projects with my grandson. I hope they turn out as nice as yours did. Being a grandpa is the best.

Mike
 

dadsEH

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Oct 13, 2010
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Tangambalanga in the Kiewa valley of North Vic.AU
Jeff,
looks like you have a real hot rod happening there! The Grandson must be so proud of his Pop,. only 11 months and 28 days to go... get your sorry a$$ out in the shed and get into those modifications for next year!!!
On the steering issue.. maybe something from a ride on mower???
 
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Jeff Ivers

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Oklahoma
Yeah, that's what I needed - a good swift kick (verbal). Actually, another community has decided to hold one in May, so I have less than 8 months. But first I need to finish the gas pump restoration and take some time to think about what to change on the car. Thanks for the mower suggestion.

Jeff,
looks like you have a real hot rod happening there! The Grandson must be so proud of his Pop,. only 11 months and 28 days to go... get your sorry a$$ out in the shed and get into those modifications for next year!!!
On the steering issue.. maybe something from a ride on mower???
 

1320stang

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Dec 28, 2006
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Edmond, OK
There is a hill in Oklahoma??????

Sorry,I couldn't help myself. That is the coolest thread ever. As a new grandfather,I can't wait to do some projects with my grandson. I hope they turn out as nice as yours did. Being a grandpa is the best.

Mike

More hills in Oklahoma than Iowa. And I've been over most of Iowa on RAGBRAI the past 7 years.
 

KMinAF

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Mar 5, 2011
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698
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Fairview Utah
Now that looks like a fun project! Unfortunately for me my grandson is only 10 days old so I may have to wait a year or two before begining my racer build.
 

creativecars

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Nov 15, 2010
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Indiana- where horse and buggies still roam
Looks and runs great. I would look into what is used by the racing cart people. Their steering systems are more than capable of handling what you need. You may also check to see if the driver is pulling the wheel as it comes off the ramp. If thats the case a better driving position or a place to support an elbow will help give him that stability. Were you going to make wheel covers at one time?
 
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Jeff Ivers

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Oklahoma
Congratulations on the new grandson! The local race had some 4 and 5 year olds in the novelty class, so you may not have to wait as long as you think. Of course, if you are anxious to get started, you might fab up a dual purpose stroller that can have the push bar removed and steering activated when old enough.

Now that looks like a fun project! Unfortunately for me my grandson is only 10 days old so I may have to wait a year or two before begining my racer build.
 
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Jeff Ivers

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Oklahoma
The steering is sort of copied after some carts I looked at and uses a cart steering shaft and wheel. I am still mentally struggling with whether I need to change the steering or just get more practice time for the driver. The elbow support is a good idea to consider. I am considering wheel covers for the coming year, but ran out of time this last season.

Looks and runs great. I would look into what is used by the racing cart people. Their steering systems are more than capable of handling what you need. You may also check to see if the driver is pulling the wheel as it comes off the ramp. If thats the case a better driving position or a place to support an elbow will help give him that stability. Were you going to make wheel covers at one time?
 

KMinAF

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Fairview Utah
Congratulations on the new grandson! The local race had some 4 and 5 year olds in the novelty class, so you may not have to wait as long as you think. Of course, if you are anxious to get started, you might fab up a dual purpose stroller that can have the push bar removed and steering activated when old enough.

Don't get me started! I could get into a lot of trouble between my wife and daughter LOL
 
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Jeff Ivers

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Apr 9, 2010
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Oklahoma
MrBurrito,

Thanks for the link on the recumbents and their technique for fabbing a body over their chassis. The wire cloth is not something I had thought about to create a shape to be covered by paper mache. I love seeing how different people come up with different solutions to a similar problem!

Jeff


To get a fiberglass body you could do what the velomobile guys do on recumbent bikes.

They wrap the body in mesh, mold it into shape, paper mache, then lay down the glass.
http://forum.atomiczombie.com/showthread.php/6923-New-Velomobile?highlight=velomobile

Its an interesting read.
 
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Spareparts

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Mar 12, 2010
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Lansing Ks.
Jeff, I picked up a very small Rack and Pinion steering unit from a Go-Cart shop in Bonner Springs Ks. Reall neat unit using 3/8" rod ends for tie rods, was going to use it on a racing lawn mower until my son (driver) found out about girls and had little time for Dad. The R/P unit was about $100. and would tighten the steering up plus leaning the king pins back 10 to 15 degrees and it should self center without any steering input. And by the way very nice project and thanks for sharing.
 
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Jeff Ivers

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Oklahoma
Spareparts,

Thanks for the tip on the GoCart R&P. I had looked at a number of carts that had steering setup about like what I put in. I need to research this further.

Jeff

Jeff, I picked up a very small Rack and Pinion steering unit from a Go-Cart shop in Bonner Springs Ks. Reall neat unit using 3/8" rod ends for tie rods, was going to use it on a racing lawn mower until my son (driver) found out about girls and had little time for Dad. The R/P unit was about $100. and would tighten the steering up plus leaning the king pins back 10 to 15 degrees and it should self center without any steering input. And by the way very nice project and thanks for sharing.
 
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Jeff Ivers

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Oklahoma
Shannon,

This is an interesting fab project you posted. Did you intend to start a new thread? I think this is worthy of your own thread.

Jeff

A little Christmas Cheer fabrication...

Here are some shots of a 36" sphere that we just did in the shop I work for.They are made from 3/8" round solid bar aluminum.

After 18hrs Monday, 8.5hrs on Tuesday and 6hrs today 10 of those beauties are going to a Atlanta shopping mall. They get covered like a Christmas ornament that shoots snow out of it and lights up.


Shannon
 
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Jeff Ivers

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Oklahoma
Well, The race is later this year - first week of October and I am not planning on doing as many mods this year. I plan to get the car in the shop in the next week or two and make some adjustments to the steering. I will post an update to show what I have done.
 
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Jeff Ivers

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Oklahoma
2013 Update - Season 3 - Race Date 10/5/2013

Well, the advertised race to be held in May was cancelled. The Sand Springs race is being held later this year and my understanding is they are moving it back downtown.

Since he was entered in 2 classes last year, novice and competition, my grandson got about 7 runs and placed 4th in the competition class. We had no equipment failures. We were handicapped by low weight of the driver. The only observed difficulty revolved around steering. They used a starting ramp with a rather abrupt transtion to the road and when the car hit this, my grandson would tend to jerk the steering wheel back and forth, slowing him down.

I decided I would attempt to improve the steering this year.

This is a top down view of the spindle.
spindle 1.JPG
This is a view of the spindle from the rear.
spindle 2.JPG
This is a view of the steering shaft and arm from the rear.
steering shaft 1.JPG
This is a view of the steering shaft and arm from the side.
steering shaft 2.JPG

A brief recap:
* I copied steering from soap box derby cars and go-karts and other down-hill racers.
* Because the wheels have standard bearings that are not really designed for side loads, I decided to not have any camber in the suspension, as I believed the camber would create a side load and friction which would be detrimental.
* I did try to build the correct ackerman angle into the steering.
* I looked at a number of carts and other downhill racers that had no caster desingned into the steering. Because camber primarily makes the steering self-centering and because of the challenges of trying to fab that, I did not design in caster.
* As raced last year, the front wheels can be turned through a 53 degree arc. This amount of steering is accomplished by moving the steering wheel only 45 degrees (1/8 of a turn).
* The goal this year is to slow down the steering, hopefully making it a bit easier for my grandson to handle without the seesawing of the wheel and resultant negative effect on speed.

With this type of steering, the maximum the steering wheel can be turned is 180 degrees (1/2 turn). In order to go above that one must have a steering box or rack of some sort that incorporates gears.

steering shaft 3.JPG
The first step this year is to lower the front of the shaft in preparation for shortening the steering arm so that more steering wheel input is required for a given amount of movement of the wheels. By moving the pivot below the bracket, I have lowered it 2.5 inches. This required creating a 1/2 height lock nut for under the bracket and sliming down the collet that holds the end of the shaft.
 

rarevair

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Feb 28, 2010
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Valley Center, KS
Great work and you have done a lot of problem solving thus far. Compounding the oversteering problem is that having the king pin running parallel to he plane of the wheel causes a lot of tire scrub when he steers. Ideal would be to have a line extended thru the king pin intersect the patch where the center of the tire contacts the pavement. A friend of mine from Wichita, Thad competes in most of the Oklahoma gravity races. May try to come down in October.
 
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Jeff Ivers

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Oklahoma
Raveair,

You make a good point, and no doubt a kingpin axis intersecting the center of the tire patch would be much more car like and impact the steering. Unfortunately, I do not have the type of equipment to fabricate things with that kind of precison. This project has been a constant tradoff of what can I do with what I have - guess I should also mention this is not an all-out racing effort (retirement level funding), but rather something to do for my grandson and challenge myself. I would like to have gone to a steering rack, but decided I needed to try to improve what I have while I continue to scrounge for rack components.

Great work and you have done a lot of problem solving thus far. Compounding the oversteering problem is that having the king pin running parallel to he plane of the wheel causes a lot of tire scrub when he steers. Ideal would be to have a line extended thru the king pin intersect the patch where the center of the tire contacts the pavement. A friend of mine from Wichita, Thad competes in most of the Oklahoma gravity races. May try to come down in October.
 
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Jeff Ivers

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Oklahoma
It seems modifying something already built is often more troublesome than the original build. Since I moved the bottom support for the steering shaft below the bracket from above, I determined the shaft retainer (collet) on the very end of the shaft would not fit behind the rod end and in front of the bracket.
steering shaft retainers.JPG
So, I commenced thinning down one of the retainers. Keep in mind I don't have any machine shop equipment. I did this with a 4.5 inch grinder while the collet was held in my bench vise.
Then, I discovered the diameter was too large to fit because of the angle of the shaft. Time for plan B.
modified steering shaft.JPG
I drilled the end of the shaft for a cotter pin. I will have the cotter pin, washer, rod end support and then a collet to hold the end of the shaft in position.

Of course, as I write this it suddenly dawns on me I could have moved the collets to straddle the upper rod end support for the shaft and accomplished the same thing with a lot less work! Oh well.
 
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Jeff Ivers

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Oklahoma
2013 Update - Season 3 - Part 3

By lowering the front steering shaft support about 2.5 inches, I was able to raise the attachment point of the steering arms about the same amount.
Steering arm revised.JPG
This shows the steering at full left lock.
left lock.jpg
This shows the steering at full right lock.
right lock.jpg
The steering wheel can now be turned about 80 degrees - almost 1/4 turn and results in the wheels moving through a 60 degree arc. (much improved over the 45/53 ratio)

I am still contemplating a couple more tweeks to improve this further, but am nearing the limits to what I can do without major surgery on the chassis, which of course has been powder coated.
 
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Jeff Ivers

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Oklahoma
2013 Season Update - Season 3 - Finale!

Today was the 6th annual Sand Springs Soapbox/Downhill Race. This was my grandsons 3rd year to compete and he is almost 9.

The day dawned cold and rainy. In his first run down the hill, in the novice class, my grandson had trouble finding the brake pedal at the finish line and ended up veering 90 degrees to the course in front of the car in the other lane, jumped a curb and ran into a flower pot! This taught us 3 things:
1) The car has an adequate turning radius
2) The car is not prone to roll over in a high speed corner - he was doing about 29 mph
3) The car survived the impact.
Later, we noticed one of the tie rods sustained a slight bend, altering the alignment which we reset.

Macen (my grandson) completed three novice runs and then 3 qualifying runs in the youth competition class. After that a good friend made a single qualifying run in adult competition class and had the brakes lockup at the end.

brake 2.jpg
This is how the brake linkage at the pedal looked. A fabbed part to connect the brake cables failed after 3 years and about 15 to 20 runs down the hill. We did some emergency repairs and ended up with this:
2013 downhill - brake link 2.JPG
After that, Macen completed 3 runs in the bracket runoffs.
2013 downhill 5 r.jpg
This is the run that advanced him to the final heat.
2013 downhill - 2nd r.jpg
Second place and a $75 check!
2013 downhill 7 - trophy.JPG
The trophy!
 

Cris B

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Mar 21, 2011
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Lancashire, UK
Fantastic :) Great result!

I've been working on this for some time. It is no competition car or near as developed as your soapbox racer but my two sons love driving it and that is why we do these things...

8521552979_c4073e42f8_c.jpg
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Jeff Ivers

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Oklahoma
Fantastic :) Great result!

I've been working on this for some time. It is no competition car or near as developed as your soapbox racer but my two sons love driving it and that is why we do these things...

8521552979_c4073e42f8_c.jpg
[/url]

Cris, that's a great looking car! I love the hotrod look you have achieved. Where did you source your wheels? Is your car gas or electric powered? Amen to why we do this. The look on my grandson's face when he accepted the check and trophy made all the work worthwhile.
 
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Jeff Ivers

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Oklahoma
Here are a few pics of some of our competitors from the last few years.
competition 1.jpg
competition 2.jpg
competition 3.jpg
competition 4.jpg
competition 5.jpg

The workmanship on some of these, particularly the teal car, is outstanding. The event is a hoot to attend just to see how differenet people approach the design and build of a car.

I just watched (on tv) episode 184 of the Explore Tulsa program. My grandson and I were both interviewed for this program.

Video Available!

Go to exploretulsa.com and view episode 184. They did a great job of portraying the flavor of the event much more than my postings on this thread.
 
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Jeff Ivers

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Oklahoma
Post season update:

The teal car in the second photo of post #118 is one of the best built cars out there. My grandson beat that car this year for second place (by inches). When I visited with the owner of the teal car he advised he was using semi-synthetic bearings (ceramic rollers). He demonstrated how freely the wheels spun - much less drag than the wheels I have been using:
exist downhil wheel.JPG
These wheels were purchased for about $30 each and were selected because they were from a bicylce trailer (for kids) and had sealed bearing that would fit a 1/2" axle. I have been dubious about trying to replace the bearing because the wheels are made of plastic.

Last weekend, I took a little 2-day trip and happened to stop in a run-down flea market and stumbled across these:
new wheel 2.jpg
new wheel 3.jpg
These are also designed for bicycle trailers and have sealed bearings that will fit a 1/2" axle. I believe these might be an upgrade to the plastic wheels and might allow me to upgrade to better bearings for next year. The best part was they appeared to be brand new and I picked them up for $2 each!

Number 2 grandson is considering starting to race next year. So far the to-do list for next year is:

Possible wheel upgrade
Repair/enhance the brake linkage that failed (see 1st photo in post 20)
Add a foot rest to prevent sliding into the tie rods in the event of another
curb hit
 

k p

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Feb 6, 2013
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Ontario, Canada
Post season update:

The teal car in the second photo of post #118 is one of the best built cars out there. My grandson beat that car this year for second place (by inches). When I visited with the owner of the teal car he advised he was using semi-synthetic bearings (ceramic rollers). He demonstrated how freely the wheels spun - much less drag than the wheels I have been using:

These wheels were purchased for about $30 each and were selected because they were from a bicylce trailer (for kids) and had sealed bearing that would fit a 1/2" axle. I have been dubious about trying to replace the bearing because the wheels are made of plastic.

Last weekend, I took a little 2-day trip and happened to stop in a run-down flea market and stumbled across these:

These are also designed for bicycle trailers and have sealed bearings that will fit a 1/2" axle. I believe these might be an upgrade to the plastic wheels and might allow me to upgrade to better bearings for next year. The best part was they appeared to be brand new and I picked them up for $2 each!

Number 2 grandson is considering starting to race next year. So far the to-do list for next year is:

Possible wheel upgrade
Repair/enhance the brake linkage that failed (see 1st photo in post 20)
Add a foot rest to prevent sliding into the tie rods in the event of another
curb hit

Ceramic bearings are insanely expensive, the teal cars builder must not spare any expense with that thing. A quick eBay search will quickly illustrate why you should stick with normal bearings.
 
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