Mezzanine time

[IPACA9]

The building was done by Worldwide Steel Buildings located in Peculiar, Mo which is about 40 minutes from me.

When I called them about expanding it they pulled the plans and said that they had added trusses because the customer wanted to be able to add a hoist. I really don't know what I'm looking at that would be "added".

 

[bczygan]

Hey Bill.

Trying to get my head wrapped around the more open LVL concept. You list four of the 30' beams. Would these be all fastened together to form one large beam? If so what are the widths of these? I like the idea of the "toe kick" with mounting the joists lower to achieve a better bottom height considering these are much taller than the 9¼" of the original 2x10s.

If I'm correct in what you mean I'll whip something up with sketchup showing the new framing.

The width of each of these LVL's is 1 3/4". Two of them are fastened together, side by side to create a beam 3 1/2" wide by whatever the depth is. So the 4 14" deep LVL's create the 2 30' long beams. The 2 11 7/8" deep LVL's create the 24' long beam. You can lift them into place individually and fasten the 2 plys together in place.

Each ply of the 11 7/8" deep LVL will weigh 114 pounds.
Each ply of the 14" deep LVL will weigh 168 pounds.

The columns that will be eliminated are (Standing at the overhead doors and looking toward the back of the garage) the 2 on your left, in the middle of the span, the 2 on your right in the middle of the span, and the one directly in front of you.
This will result in a 40' wide by 30' deep building that only has (Besides the columns around the perimeter walls) 2 columns in the floor space, and these are located at the inside corners of the U shaped mezzanine.

Bill

 

[theoldwizard1]

I am getting ready for a "redesign" of my mez, and this helps a bit for sure. I am cheating, but thats a whole different story

Some of today's "design standards" lead to a "bouncy" floor. Structurally sound, but people walking on it can tell it is flexing. Not an issue for a mezzanine, but something to consider when designing a second floor especially when using wooden I-beams for joists.

 

[bczygan]

The columns with the arrows will be eliminated.

 

[Cryptic1911]

Why not just pick up some pallet racking that is setup for a mezzanine? There's tons of that stuff available for reasonable money, it's probably stronger than the wood will be, and it just has to be assembled like legos

 

[bczygan]

Some of today's "design standards" lead to a "bouncy" floor. Structurally sound, but people walking on it can tell it is flexing. Not an issue for a mezzanine, but something to consider when designing a second floor especially when using wooden I-beams for joists.

True.

Especially with longer spans.

Bridging and blocking helps some, even with shorter spans, but is very necessary (And required) for longer ones.

Bill

 

[IPACA9]

Why not just pick up some pallet racking that is setup for a mezzanine? There's tons of that stuff available for reasonable money, it's probably stronger than the wood will be, and it just has to be assembled like legos

I have thought about pallet racking since I have experience in them. I've tore them down and reinstalled them before. The problem is that they would have posts just like I have now.

Plus I like to build things. It will be great when people come into the garage and say wow, you built that.

The back story on this is that last July, 2014 I lost my father-in-law at 71 and in December my father at 69. A real eye opener that tomorrow is not promised and how fragile we are. Her father lost his battle to Lukemia and my father lost his battle to Lupis in his lungs, diabetes and congestive heart failure. My wife's father was retired 24 years Army and owned a Mechanic shop for 30 years. Her family gave me his huge tool boxes, bike and everything. My father was 20 year Retired Air Force. He was a 2 tour Vietnam Air Commando Door Gunner. After he retired he was a gunsmith for 30+ years. This man was always go, go, go. He hit every auction, garage sale and estate sale looking for great things. Great things that now we are slowly selling to the right people. We have a 40x60 building, 2 bedroom house, various sheds and the main house full of antiques, tools, western and military memorabilia, and too much to list!

My mother, wife and I decided to go in on a house together. Soon we will sell her property and add an addition onto the house just for her.

I sold some of the collection of firearms to fund the projects and upgrades for the new house. When I see this mezzanine and use it, it will be a way of saying "my dad built this".

It's just a personal thing.

 

[theoldwizard1]

The columns with the arrows will be eliminated.

That would be a HUGE cost savings and the easy of access below would be TREMENDOUS ! Goodonya !!

 

[IPACA9]

After making this I didn't think about the size differences of the LVLs. I'll have to adjust them to adjust floor heights or drop them down a bit. I do like getting rid of a few posts.

 

[Cryptic1911]

I sold some of the collection of firearms to fund the projects and upgrades for the new house. When I see this mezzanine and use it, it will be a way of saying "my dad built this".

It's just a personal thing.

 

[IPACA9]

Hit my local Lowes up which I have an account with and the 14x30 LVLs are $180 each and the 11 x 24 is $121.20. They'll charge me a $60 delivery but he said they'll pick up my extra wood while they're there if I figure out what's not needed from my first purchase. Save me the trouble of digging out my car trailer.

 

[bczygan]

Hit my local Lowes up which I have an account with and the 14x30 LVLs are $180 each and the 11 x 24 is $121.20. They'll charge me a $60 delivery but he said they'll pick up my extra wood while they're there if I figure out what's not needed from my first purchase. Save me the trouble of digging out my car trailer.

Sounds like a plan!

Bill

 

[NUTTSGT]

Finally got around to finishing up my design. I moved the stairs to the inside and to the back.

Forgive me for not reading all of bczygan's post reference the LVLs and posts but I did notice something here.

I'd be running the plywood decking perdendicular to the floor joist not parallel to them. Doing the former will allow the decking to tie into 6 floor joists where the latter will only tie into 4 joists. (figuring 16"OC) While your design might be easier and/or cheaper, running perpendicular will make it stronger.

 

[bczygan]

Yes, the decking should run the other way and the joists should have solid blocking in the middle, at least on the side mezzanines, for nailing.

Bill

 

[IPACA9]

Whats your thoughts of triple 11 7/8s for the 30' runs vs the two 14" deep ones?

 

[bczygan]

Whats your thoughts of triple 11 7/8s for the 30' runs vs the two 14" deep ones?

Check the tables yourself. Look at your exact spans and see what the exact contributing areas are. I rounded up a little. You may be happy with just slightly less than 40#/SF. Check for live and total loads.

The width would be 5 1/4" which would preclude a notched seat on a 6x6. But if you bolt a 2x6 to the face of the 6x6, you could get the same effect. That or a notch helps with triangulating the connection.

Bill

 

[theoldwizard1]

Check the tables yourself. Look at your exact spans and see what the exact contributing areas are. I rounded up a little. You may be happy with just slightly less than 40#/SF. Check for live and total loads.

Most tables are set up for live loads that you "storage" mezzanine will never see. Better safe than sorry !

 

[bczygan]

Most tables are set up for live loads that you "storage" mezzanine will never see. Better safe than sorry !

Actually it's kind of weird. We typically design for uniform live loads, when in reality most loads are point loads. Residences are designed for 40#/SF, yet I am a point load of 250#. Luckily, wood framed structures are very good at transferring loads to adjacent members, to 40#/SF is adequate for furniture and people. In addition, this load capability is designed to be stiff enough, with the appropriate deflection limits, so that the point loads of you walking across the floor, won't crack the plaster or drywall ceiling below. So yes, capacity is adequate for a range of use.

The links I gave in the treatise above give a range that should suffice for any typical mezzanine that guys on here would want to build. It should actually be a sticky, so anyone can use it.

For the joists, they allow DL's from 10# to 20#/SF and live loads up to 100#/SF.

Dimensional lumber beams are based on pounds per lineal foot so the charts are based on spans and allowable deflection.

Same goes for LVL's.

So you can set the live and dead loads at just about whatever you like or need.

For just regular loads and fairly light storage, I would just go with a 40#/SF live load, like house living areas. But if you are doing heavier storage, you can adjust as needed.

In the OP's case above, I examined his original layout, and he actually had joists that would support a live load of 110#/SF!!! He could have put an E350 up there!

But the dimensional lumber beams weren't quite up to supporting 40#/SF of live load, even with the short spans that all those columns gave.

After reworking things, he has a minimum of 40#/SF, and using 2x6 joists, even more for the joists. But the beams are still the limiting factor.

Bill

 

[IPACA9]

Basically my mezzanine is going to be storage shelving across the whole back 40' row for Christmas things or whatever. Get things out of the house type stuff. The longer left side is going to have work tables for my boys and I's hobbies like car models and rc planes. The right side with the stairway is probably going to be a lounge area for friends and kids with TV, games and couch.

Do you think my single 2x10 beams for the outer perimeter are good enough? They are 10 feet long and sit on the 6x6 posts. Should I go with 2x12s? I will be using 2x8s fr my joists that will be about 6' 8" wide supported with joist hangers of course.

 

[brownbagg]

i would of done it with 4x4, 2x8, done away with the rails, and the stairs, had a ladder on one end, pick up 30% more space at lower cost

 

[MagKarl]

What's your plan for shear support on the legs? Is this free standing or tied into the building? I must have missed that part.

 

[IPACA9]

i would of done it with 4x4, 2x8, done away with the rails, and the stairs, had a ladder on one end, pick up 30% more space at lower cost

I didn't want my wife, mother or kids climbing up and down a ladder. I see a lot of time being spent up there.

 

[bczygan]

What's your plan for shear support on the legs? Is this free standing or tied into the building? I must have missed that part.

The legs have adequate support from being on a ledge and the joints are triangulated by the distance between the fasteners and contact with the top of the post. This is true in the direction of the beams. In the other direction, the multitude of joists, attached to the beams with joist hangers, provides triangulation.

I would NOT tie the mezzanine to the steel structure because of the different construction methods. And because of the above, it's not necessary.

Bill

 

[bczygan]

i would of done it with 4x4, 2x8, done away with the rails, and the stairs, had a ladder on one end, pick up 30% more space at lower cost

4x4's wouldn't have allowed notching the top of the columns, which provides a seat for the beams, and also makes a triangulated connection stronger.

If you mean 2x8's for the joists, that is actually over sized. 2x6's will do. 2x8's for the beams are way under sized, unless you double them up, and then only for the shorter spans.

If this was just storage space, and seldom accessed, maybe a ladder and simple railings (Some demountable) would do. But the OP wants usable space for the family, so it must have code compliant railings and stairs.



Bill

 

[bczygan]

Basically my mezzanine is going to be storage shelving across the whole back 40' row for Christmas things or whatever. Get things out of the house type stuff. The longer left side is going to have work tables for my boys and I's hobbies like car models and rc planes. The right side with the stairway is probably going to be a lounge area for friends and kids with TV, games and couch.

Do you think my single 2x10 beams for the outer perimeter are good enough? They are 10 feet long and sit on the 6x6 posts. Should I go with 2x12s? I will be using 2x8s fr my joists that will be about 6' 8" wide supported with joist hangers of course.

OP,
Look back at my analysis on post #27.

The spans for the dimensional lumber beams on the sides are 10'. These require 2 2x8's or a 2x12.

The 2 spans on the end of the building are 12'. These require 2 2x10's. Check the beam charts if you need.

Bill

 

[IPACA9]

Sorry I missed that part with the 2x8s and 2x12 beams. I like the idea of the smaller size 2x8 double beams since the 2x10 was going to block a little of the top of the window.

 

[IPACA9]

bczygan you nailed it. McCray Lumber recommended I contact their in-house engineer about the beams before ordering and he replied with.

Good info, thanks. I agree with the 14” LVL. I have attached 2 Design Reports, one with 40 lb. live load and one with 60 lb. live load.

I usually see bolts used when connecting LVLs with side loads. I ran the 2nd calc with 60 lb. live just to see what would happen and the LVLs were only 70% “maxed Out” and would work with 16d common nails, but I recommend bolts.

He attached the data sheets he calculated as well for the 40# and 60# loads.

 

[IPACA9]

What a F'N headache. I wanted to order my beams from Lowes but they told me they don't deliver anything that long. I have a Lowes account and would love to use it to get the beams now and pay them off next month or so since I have 6 months same as cash plus military discount. That's the ONLY place that says they won't deliver them. Some places have free delivery since I'd be hitting the $1000 mark. My house is only five miles down the highway from them. I called corporate and they got me in contact with a person in charge of the Pro department and he said he'll get it handled. I got a call this morning from the manager of the other Lowes here in town and he said he'd get them to me next week. It may be a evening delivery but he will see that it gets done. I told him all I want is them dropped off the side of the road in the grass and I'll take it from there. My building is about 400 feet from the road and I figure if I can't get a few buddies over to help carry them I'll just make a sled and drag them with my UTV. It just seems so silly trying to get these damn beams here. It's going to bealmost 70 degrees all weekend and I would have loved to be able to work on this. My wife says it happens for a reason and it just means I should spend time with my three boys and have fun in the sun.

On a side note I'd be half done with this damn thing if Bill wouldn't have recommended a different way. Thanks Bill for slowing me down...lol In the end it will be great though.

 

[My Old Tools]

It depends on how your building is constructed, but sometimes it's just easier to get there in steel. My building has 10" heavy I-beam frames connected by purlins. I had the loft hung from the I-beam columns and a center support up to the I-beam rafter. This is for a 30' wide x 20' deep loft completely clear span. Stairs are on the back wall, 4' wide.

 

[IPACA9]

I wish I had stronger uprights that I could just bolt my beams to but I'm stuck with using my own posts.

 

[theoldwizard1]

On a side note I'd be half done with this damn thing if Bill wouldn't have recommended a different way. Thanks Bill for slowing me down...lol In the end it will be great though.

So does he get 1/2 of your savings ?

 

[IPACA9]

Actually not really a savings. It come out to about the same if not a little more for what I got the wood at. The nice thing is that I can return the wood that I would have been using it make the previous beams to get the decking and railings that I've yet to purchase. Still keeps me within budget

 

[TLCObsession]

One quick comment about the lost space for the stairs. Depending on how often you are up there, you could hinge them and swing them up and out of the way. We did something similar on a project and it was surprisingly easy with a pulley and counterweight.

 

[IPACA9]

I intend on my kids and family to spend time with me while I'm in there. The right side will be a lounge area with TV, game system and couch. Left side will be hobby tables and such for us to work on RC planes, car models and whatever. Under the stairs will be built in for compressor room.

 

[IPACA9]

LVLs are ordered and supposed to be here Wednesday morning so today I got home and started to disassemble my previous work. Tonight I have to clear and move things around to make way for posts and a place to lay the beams.

 

[IPACA9]

I got myself pretty good with the pry bar. Slipped off the nail, bounced off a joist and bit me. It's been a long time since I took a knuckle to the face...lol



It's a process of build, move, shuffle, build, put it back. It'll get there and will be great. Some of this **** on shelves in the corner are things that came from the previous house that didn't sell at garage sales or whatever. I told my wife donate it or dump it. If I haven't used it in a few years it's got to go!

 

[NUTTSGT]

Look at the bright side, the prybar didn't hit you in the eye.

 

[IPACA9]

I had some major wood this morning.........delivered....lol.


Man I really like that fork lift. Never realized all the wheels turn. Got him right to the doors





The 14" deep ones were actually just shy of 31". I had to cut them to my needed length of 29'2" to get them to fit and clear the garage door. The extra pieces were great to put under them to space off the floor.




My 26 footers had one end banged up but I'm cutting almost a foot and half off them so not a big deal.

 

[IPACA9]

I ordered the Simpson 3½x11 hangers along with Fastenmaster TrussLok and Headlock screws for the beams. Also ordered Simpsons Strong Tie SD #9 and #10 connector screws. My left shoulder is really giving me fits and if I can swing the hammer less that would be great. It costs more than nails but my shoulder will thank me. All this should be here Friday.

Tonight I'm going to go through all the lumber I have and see what's needed and what needs to go back to be changed for the new design and size changes.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I ordered the Simpson 3½x11 hangers along with Fastenmaster TrussLok and Headlock screws for the beams. Also ordered Simpsons Strong Tie SD #9 and #10 connector screws. My left shoulder is really giving me fits and if I can swing the hammer less that would be great. It costs more than nails but my shoulder will thank me. All this should be here Friday.

I sure hope you have an impact driver ! If not, now is the time to buy one !!

Simpson gives you a 1/4" hex adapter but it is not very good. Buy a decent one.

Make sure your joist are tight to the hangers and that the top of the joist is flush to the top of the beam. Might need a helper to hold things if you have shoulder issues.