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Move over Snap-on have a viable competitor for ratchets

M6erfan

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Again, this is based on what? Your opinion? There's no facts to back that up at all. More hyperbole.

My point was to Ko-ken not offering tools like torque wrenches.

I've looked at catalogs from S-o, SK, ProTo, GW, and Wright. None of those others come close as far as I can tell. Ko-ken has over 160 part numbers just for 10mm sockets. Ko-ken also offers socket styles that aren't even available from other manufacturers. So no, not hyperbole.

Can you tell me who offers more sockets in their catalog than Ko-ken?
 
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CrazyTools

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My point was to Ko-ken not offering tools like torque wrenches.

I've looked at catalogs from S-o, SK, ProTo, GW, and Wright. None of those others come close as far as I can tell. Ko-ken has over 160 part numbers just for 10mm sockets. Ko-ken also offers socket styles that aren't even available from other manufacturers. So no, not hyperbole.

Can you tell me who offers more sockets in their catalog than Ko-ken?

Honestly that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

Shallow, Deep, Semi Deep Chrome.
Shallow, Deep, Semi Deep Impact.
Magnetic Shallow, Deep, Semi Deep Chrome.
Magnetic Shallow Deep, Semi Deep, Impact.
Shallow, Semi, and Deep universal chrome.
Shallow, Semi and Deep wobble impact.
Shallow Profile
Thin Profile. Thin Profile Deep.
Swivel Ball Extension with socket on end.

Now multiple that by 2 for 6 and 12 point.

44 Sockets.

Multiple that by 1/4" & 3/8" & 1/2" drive and you already have 132 variations without even trying. So if Koken only offers 160, then ALMOST EVERY MANUFACTURER MAKES MORE VARIATIONS than they do.

And I would guess that 99% of Koken's "variations" are of the "**** on a bull" variety.

Give me a break. You just earned yourself another meme.
 
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CrazyTools

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M6erfan

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Honestly that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

Shallow, Deep, Semi Deep Chrome.
Shallow, Deep, Semi Deep Impact.
Magnetic Shallow, Deep, Semi Deep Chrome.
Magnetic Shallow Deep, Semi Deep, Impact.
Shallow, Semi, and Deep universal chrome.
Shallow, Semi and Deep wobble impact.
Shallow Profile
Thin Profile. Thin Profile Deep.
Swivel Ball Extension with socket on end.

Now multiple that by 2 for 6 and 12 point.

44 Sockets.

Multiple that by 1/4" & 3/8" & 1/2" drive and you already have 132 variations without even trying. So if Koken only offers 160, then ALMOST EVERY MANUFACTURER MAKES MORE VARIATIONS than they do.

And I would guess that 99% of Koken's "variations" are of the "**** on a bull" variety.

Give me a break. You just earned yourself another meme.

You forgot low profile (S-o needs proprietary drive tool), extra deep, nutgrip, surface drive, Titanium, etc...
 
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Mr_John

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We’re getting there, Mr_John. As you’ve since noticed, I didn’t ask you to measure twice. But neither did I doubt the 24-tooth count.

However, if the 3/8"-drive ratchets are 24-tooth instead of 20-tooth, that changes my swing-arc calculation a little in their favour. Still, it’s 2 inches per click at the end of the handle for the regular length 3753N, plus play. More, about 3 inches, for the longer flex-head models. Sounds like a lot to me.

Not only is that the minimum space you need to get any ratcheting action at all, but even when you have more space, you’ll need to do more swings per fastener revolution.

For example, if you need 2 inches and you’ve got 3.9 inches, you’re still only going to get 1 click per swing, which is 15 degrees (360/24) of fastener rotation. With 3× the tooth-count (72 teeth, like Snap-on), you’d get not 3 clicks but 5 clicks in this case, which is 25 degrees of fastener movement. So the Snap-on gets the bolt out with 40% fewer swings in this contrived but explanatory case.

With more teeth, there is less wasted work in tight confines.

I guess I’ll have to get my hands on one of these peculiar Kokens to see how the swing versus back-drag trade-off works out in practice.

Yes, no real disagreements, and again, when I though you were telling ME to "measure twice," that's why I thought you were questioning the 24 tooth count. It just got more nuanced when somebody pointed out that I linked a 20 count mech from the 1/4... at any rate, yes, I'm really having trouble finding evidence that Ko-ken ratchets are "premium." That said, they do seem to have some very high quality sockets - with a higher price to match.

So, yeah, I think about the recent rear brake job I did in the tight confines of my GTI's rear wheelwell... the only ratchet I found that works well on these bolts, with sufficient leverage is my 88 tooth Matco extended length ratchet (BFR128LF). There's definitely a distinct disadvantage maneuvering an 88 tooth ratchet in those confines vs a 24 tooth, or even 45 tooth Ko-ken.
 

Mr_John

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Ko-ken specializes in socketry. They probably have the most comprehensive socket selection of any tool manufacturer in the world. They don't make wrenches or pliers, very few screwdrivers...

I'm not going overboard with my "acclaim", most of my posts have been to correct or refute ignorant statements made about Ko-ken. That's all.

Yeah, their website is bad, I agree, but so are many other tool companies'. Surf on over to the Tekton website if you want to see a great tool site.

I agree with you on the sockets - I found them impressive, although pricey (not lower priced like the ratchets). I just find the praise for the Ko-ken ratchets to be superfluous... the finish on them doesn't appear to be as high quality, just from the pics I viewed (eg - take a Japanese Koken vs a Japanese Nepros for ex). The fact that there aren't any seals on the ratchet and the mech has such a low tooth count and Ko-ken shows no evidence of advanced ratchet manufacturing (such as carrying a digital torque wrench line), just seems to be more representative of a mid-tier tool manufacturer.

All of the above said, if you like Ko-ken and you've used other high end ratchets, then so be it. This isn't necessarily an "I'm right you're wrong type of debate." That said, there are clear disadvantages of those low tooth count mechs that you can't deny... longer travel for pawl to tooth engagement is not something that's preferred in tight quarter wrenching (especially when you're considering higher torque fasteners, or rusted fasteners, that require longer length ratchets where the travel is exaggerated even further).
 

M6erfan

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I agree with you on the sockets - I found them impressive, although pricey (not lower priced like the ratchets). I just find the praise for the Ko-ken ratchets to be superfluous... the finish on them doesn't appear to be as high quality, just from the pics I viewed (eg - take a Japanese Koken vs a Japanese Nepros for ex). The fact that there aren't any seals on the ratchet and the mech has such a low tooth count and Ko-ken shows no evidence of advanced ratchet manufacturing (such as carrying a digital torque wrench line), just seems to be more representative of a mid-tier tool manufacturer.

All of the above said, if you like Ko-ken and you've used other high end ratchets, then so be it. This isn't necessarily an "I'm right you're wrong type of debate." That said, there are clear disadvantages of those low tooth count mechs that you can't deny... longer travel for pawl to tooth engagement is not something that's preferred in tight quarter wrenching (especially when you're considering higher torque fasteners, or rusted fasteners, that require longer length ratchets where the travel is exaggerated even further).

Comparing anything to Nepros' chrome is a waste of time. It is literally the nicest chrome I've ever seen on hand tools. It's like jewelry, and IMO, too nice to use. I had some Nepros pieces and sold them because I just knew I'd never use them. Got what I paid for them too :beer:

I hear ya on the tooth count and it's pointless to disagree, i mean swing arc is swing arc, but it hasn't been a big issue for me. Although there have been times when I needed a finer tooth ratchet. Truth is I use my M12 ratchet and impacts wherever I can, which is quite often.

I never have nor do claim that Ko-ken is the end all/be all of ratchets but they are my preference due to their buttery smooth feel. Better than any ratchet I've owned in that regard. I also think that Ko-ken is one of the best values out there for sockets. Strength, fit and finish, QC, design, are all world class at a fraction of the cost of the "truck brands". Just my $.02 of course...

Calling Ko-ken ratchets midrange "garbage" though is idiotic, in my opinion.

Nothing's perfect, certainly including Ko-ken. I'd like to see them knurl their sockets to aid with finger spinning and make the size markings a bit larger. The grip areas on their ratchets are a bit short, especially if you have larger hands.

Edit: FWIW, my favorite sockets are Hazet, but they're pretty pricey and hard to source here in the States. Although lately Amazon.de is making them more available at more reasonable prices.
 
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impactims

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Snap-on can't even recess their ratchet's direction switch. Holy poor design and quality! I mean, even $30 ratchets can get this right.

Snap-on ratchet with recessed direction switch...
 

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impactims

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Yup, and it's about a $30 ratchet... See?

First you say snap-on is incapable of recessing the direction switch and that the design and quality of their ratchets is poor. Now you say snap-on is capable of recessing the switch and that their ratchets with this design are worth $30.

Why are you contradicting yourself like this? What point are you trying to make?

And I don't get where you are going with this $30 thing.
 
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American Locomotive

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First you say snap-on is incapable of recessing the direction switch and that the design and quality of their ratchets is poor. Now you say snap-on is capable of recessing the switch and that their ratchets with this design are worth $30.

Why are you contradicting yourself like this? What point are you trying to make?

And I don't get where you are going with this $30 thing.
He's being facetious.
 

American Locomotive

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I just find the praise for the Ko-ken ratchets to be superfluous... the finish on them doesn't appear to be as high quality, just from the pics I viewed (eg - take a Japanese Koken vs a Japanese Nepros for ex). The fact that there aren't any seals on the ratchet and the mech has such a low tooth count and Ko-ken shows no evidence of advanced ratchet manufacturing (such as carrying a digital torque wrench line), just seems to be more representative of a mid-tier tool manufacturer.
KoKen is not a full-line tool manufacturer, and aren't trying to do so. They specialize in socketry ratchets - that's about it. Saying they're a "mid-tier" tool manufacturer because they don't offer a digital torque wrench line is like saying Rolex is a "mid-tier" watch manufacturer because they still use mechanical movements and don't offer modern digital watches or electronic movements.

Multiple that by 1/4" & 3/8" & 1/2" drive and you already have 132 variations without even trying. So if Koken only offers 160, then ALMOST EVERY MANUFACTURER MAKES MORE VARIATIONS than they do.
I just checked Snap-On's catalog. They don't even offer remotely close to 160 variations of a particular socket size. I counted <70 variations of 6 and 12 point 10mm sockets.
In comparing my last remaining Snap-on F730 ratchet (36 teeth) to the current 80 teeth version (F80) --- there is a clear backdrag winner. The 80 teeth version. Older style ratchets from the 80s, 90s (the designs Koken still imitates) use a very strong spring to prevent the ratchet pawl from clicking to the next "tooth." Otherwise the ratchet would skip under force.
Except KoKen has refined their ratchet designs so they do not have high back drag or require strong springs. I've used both Koken and F80 ratchets. The KoKen ratchet has the lowest back drag of any ratchet I've used. Lower than both the F80 and my own personal SK LP90.
 
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M6erfan

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I just checked Snap-On's catalog. They don't even offer remotely close to 160 variations of a particular socket size. I counted <70 variations of 6 and 12 point 10mm sockets.

Except KoKen has refined their ratchet designs so they do not have high back drag or require strong springs. I've used both Koken and F80 ratchets. The KoKen ratchet has the lowest back drag of any ratchet I've used. Lower than both the F80 and my own personal SK LP90.

And the F80 doesn't even have a recessed direction lever... Sheesh!
 

Mr_John

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Maybe you need to pay a little more attention...

How could you not "realize" the name of the people you talk to?

Well, maybe if you "paid attention" to the actual exchange, you would have realized that I was responding to somebody else that mentioned "measuretwice" in their response to me.
 

impactims

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Well the koken ratchet looks interesting, but if you want a low tooth count ratchet with low back drag, why not use Cornwell ratchets? They are top tier quality level, they are domestic with local support. If you have a truck, even more support. If not, it's mailing product back and forth and even that is much more than koken can do down the road.
 

M6erfan

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Well the koken ratchet looks interesting, but if you want a low tooth count ratchet with low back drag, why not use Cornwell ratchets? They are top tier quality level, they are domestic with local support. If you have a truck, even more support. If not, it's mailing product back and forth and even that is much more than koken can do down the road.

What makes you think that? Ko-ken USA is in Chelmsford, MA.

I can't remember the last time I saw a Cornwell truck around here. How do you even buy a new Cornwell tool?
 
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Handyandy23

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I can understand people taking the stance that they aren't interested in Koken ratchets because they are more difficult to source, warranty, or just that they are happy with what they currently have. But I will never understand someone trying to "compare" their quality to others without having ever used one! It makes absolutely no sense.

How can you argue so passionately against something you have no first hand experience with? Kinda makes your opinion worthless. If you can produce so many posts based on zero personal experience then it calls into question any assertion you've previously made.
 

impactims

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What makes you think that? Ko-ken USA is in Chelmsford, MA.

I can't remember the last time I saw a Cornwell truck around here. How do you even buy a new Cornwell tool?

I am saying with cornwell, it's just mail it in, get another.

With koken, it appears to be a bit less hassle free. You have to have purchased from an authorized dealer, they inspect for signs of abuse, etc.
 

M6erfan

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I am saying with cornwell, it's just mail it in, get another.

With koken, it appears to be a bit less hassle free. You have to have purchased from an authorized dealer, they inspect for signs of abuse, etc.

Right, I get your point. My question is how would I even get the first Cornwell?

Besides, I just self warranty. I've never broken a ratchet. Worn out the guts yes, but a rebuild kit is easy enough. And even if I snapped the handle in half, I'd just buy another. I could get 3 or 4 Ko-kens for the price of 1 S-o or Cornwell.
 
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impactims

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I just buy used cornwell and so.

Warranty has never been a problem. I get so every week and I have at least 5 tools per week to exchange. Last week I had 39.
 

measuredtwice

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The retail price for a 3/8" ratchet on the Cornwell website is 3x the price of a Ko-ken.

I see a form on their website that you can fill out with your contact information and then they give it to dealer. Not the way I prefer to do business.
 

CR888

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I just buy used cornwell and so.

Warranty has never been a problem. I get so every week and I have at least 5 tools per week to exchange. Last week I had 39.

Excuse my ignorance, but if you purchase only USED Cornwell & SO tools, wouldn't the warranty only apply to the original purchaser? Each week you exchange at least 5 tools & last week you exchanged 39! Are you the reason SO tools cost 3X what they should or am I missing something here? Wowzers 39 tools exchanged at once...having NEVER purchased a new tool off the truck, does the driver start sweating as you approach! Has he ever seen you coming & just driven off @speed?
 
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Samuel D

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Do any of the 3/8"-drive Koken ratchets have a single-step dog, to use the language of their catalogue? It’s unclear to me if the ones that aren’t advertised as having a two-step dog necessarily have single-step dogs.
 

JBH

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You have to have purchased [Koken] from an authorized dealer, they inspect for signs of abuse, etc.

Wait - you mean they cover actual manufacturing defects, but not user stupidity or dumpster diving? For SHAME! A pox upon their house!

Question though: are you writing from experience or are you taking their written policy at face value while conceding that other companies do not adequately enforce their own written policies?

I just buy used cornwell and so.

Warranty has never been a problem. I get so every week and I have at least 5 tools per week to exchange. Last week I had 39.

Are you just truly terrible at using tools, or is your side hustle dumpster diving and exploiting lax warranty policy enforcement?

I've now downgraded the Koken ratchets to complete garbage.

Good to know. We'll file that next to economic policy musings from someone who had a license to print money (i.e. a casino) and went bankrupt anyway. Were you in the market for a tiki torch about two years ago?
 

Samuel D

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Snap-on’s tolerance of warranty fraud is a problem for honest customers.

Every fraudulent warranty claim (i.e. not for a manufacturing defect but for abuse: probably >95% of claims these days) increases the costs out of all proportion to the retail price of the tool. Every warranty claim is treated individually at great expense by the manufacturer, the efficient retail chains being out of the picture for the most part. It’s a crazy way of doing business, but such is the largesse of American culture that it has become expected from American brands.

Meanwhile, decreasing personal responsibility and increasing awareness of ways to abuse the warranty, thanks to the sharing of experiences on the web, have dramatically increased warranty fraud. I think eventually Snap-on will have to address this, because at some point they’d gain more customers and profit by being stricter with warranty fraud and using the savings to reduce prices or improve profit margins accordingly.
 

toddmorr

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...because at some point they’d gain more customers and profit by being stricter with warranty fraud and using the savings to reduce prices or improve profit margins accordingly.

perhaps, but seems to me the typical SO customer is rather price insensitive. Not sure a 10% price drop would meaningfully increase sales. I would be curious, though, to know roughly what SO's warranty costs are....can't be more than 5% or so????

anyway, i'm still loving my Koken ratchets, esp the 24 tooth 753 series guy. The low tooth count has never been an issue for me. At 35$ delivered in 4 days from Amazon JP it was a no brainer.
 

ChrisLS8

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I just buy used cornwell and so.

Warranty has never been a problem. I get so every week and I have at least 5 tools per week to exchange. Last week I had 39.

Why are you exchanging so many? Are you buying used and swapping out for new?
 

CR888

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The warranty abuse is so rampant these days it's not even considered immoral or criminal by many, folks will gloat about their wrought's openly on a public forum as if your stupid if your not doing it. F-K that! I buy tools these days with self warranty in mind, buying tools with great warranty just means your paying 20%-50%+ more for the tool initially that you may never claim on. This money you've handed over often pays for the tools of shady warranty abusers who are experts at milking the system. Its a mugs game. Tool truck tools msrp not a 100's of % markup on production cost, its more like 1000's %markup. A tool truck ratchet that sells for $200 wouldn't cost more than $10 to produce. I'll pass on the warranty thanx.
 
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M6erfan

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The warranty abuse is so rampant these days it's not even considered immoral or criminal by many, folks will gloat about their wrought's openly on a public forum as if your stupid if your not doing it. F-K that! I buy tools these days with self warranty in mind, buying tools with great warranty just means your paying 20%-50%+ more for the tool initially that you may never claim on. This money you've handed over often pays for the tools of shady warranty abusers who are experts at milking the system. Its a mugs game. Tool truck tools msrp not a 100's of % markup on production cost, its more like 1000's %markup. A tool truck ratchet that sells for $200 wouldn't cost more than $10 to produce. I'll pass on the warranty thanx.

If Ko-ken charged $100 per ratchet but offered easy button warranties, the accolades would be endless...
 
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impactims

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Excuse my ignorance, but if you purchase only USED Cornwell & SO tools, wouldn't the warranty only apply to the original purchaser? Each week you exchange at least 5 tools & last week you exchanged 39! Are you the reason SO tools cost 3X what they should or am I missing something here? Wowzers 39 tools exchanged at once...having NEVER purchased a new tool off the truck, does the driver start sweating as you approach! Has he ever seen you coming & just driven off @speed?

This last time with 39 warranty items was 36 friction slides and 3 flat head screwdrivers. I purchased a pair of 1960 era nine-drawer tool boxes and wanted to replace all the slides. On paper, yes, only the original purchaser get warranty service, but in practice that is not the case and never had been in my experience. And yes I have bought new off of the truck. When I said I just buy used, I did not mean to suggest that I have never bought new. I have bought new snap on, I have never bought new cornwell. I bring this s-o dealer a lot of business even though i personally do not buy a lot from him. I bought a lot of new s-o years ago from other dealers and a little here and there now days, but, mostly used. He has no issues with me at all, not that he has expressed anyways. Every time I go into his truck I bring a group of s-o addict buddies with me that spend quite a bit. So, yeah. Thats the story.
 

impactims

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Why are you exchanging so many? Are you buying used and swapping out for new?

I dabble in that a little, my dealer knows it and is cool with it. Should I instruct him not to give warranty service to people that buy used? It is his business and he does well. I decided to let him to it his way since it is working for him.

Mostly it is hand tools that get pushed to their limits daily, such as picks, punches, screwdrivers.....disposable stuff basically.
 
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