Pliers; How Many Is Too Many?

[Eric Brown]

Here is an interesting set of small pliers. They were made by K-D Mfg. and are about 4 1/4" long. The four types are: Standard, Parrot, Needle and Flat nose. They are in a small canvas pouch that folds once and snaps. On the inside of the canvas pouch is printed "FULTON" and something else below that. Maybe Specialty? Fulton was a Sears brand. The Alloy Artifacts site does not mention this set with the Fulton name. They are also numbered, #6, 7,8,9. Makes me wonder what the other lower numbered ones were. All also say "United States of America" on back side.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

On the inside of the canvas pouch is printed "FULTON" and something else below that.

It's the Sears, Roebuck & Co. model number, which is P-4671. It's visible on the pouch for my set, which I posted in the K-D thread, linked here, and also in the 'Long C' Craftsman thread, linked here. That link includes an excerpt from the 1941 and 1942 Craftsman catalogs in which the set appears still bearing the older 'FULTON' name on the illustrated tools.

One observation: your pliers appear to be plated, mine are natural steel finish.

 

[Eric Brown]

It's the Sears, Roebuck & Co. model number, which is P-4671. It's visible on the pouch for my set, which I posted in the K-D thread, linked here, and also in the 'Long C' Craftsman thread, linked here. That link includes an excerpt from the 1941 and 1942 Craftsman catalogs in which the set appears still bearing the older 'FULTON' name on the illustrated tools.

One observation: your pliers appear to be plated, mine are natural steel finish.

Thanks for the info. Much appreciated. My set was originally plated, maybe galvanized or similar, but most was gone by the time I got them. I will be nickel plating them so I polished the steel.

 

[LesserSon]

Sometimes I stumble on an answer to my own question. I was going through my box of offshore or missing COO tools sold by Sears and spotted a familiar handle pattern on these Companion brand 3072 Japan marked water pump pliers.

-Don

Don, the February slip-joints don’t actually have “Japan” on them, do they? And they do have a faint “E5” letter code on the sides of the handles. I think they may be Pendleton-mfd.

 

[Oregon Dave]

Don, the February slip-joints don’t actually have “Japan” on them, do they? And they do have a faint “E5” letter code on the sides of the handles. I think they may be Pendleton-mfd.

Don't know if it will lead anywhere, because contract production muddies the water, but that handle grip pattern; 'reversed chevrons' with a longitudinal spine and two offset chevrons at each end is worn by S-K Wayne slip-joint pliers; i.e. the 7306 6½”ers.

S-K, however, is not usually noted for pliers and suspect some else made theirs with the same dies used on d42jeep's.

 

[d42jeep]

Don, the February slip-joints don’t actually have “Japan” on them, do they? And they do have a faint “E5” letter code on the sides of the handles. I think they may be Pendleton-mfd.

You are absolutely right. The handle patterns on the two look the same.
Mystery pliers.
S-K Wayne pliers.-Don

 

[d42jeep]

Just to muddy the water a little more, here are a pair of Dunlap pliers with the same handle pattern.
Proto and Challenger pliers have a slightly different pattern.
-Don

 

[LesserSon]

Yes, I see that difference.
But both types have some kind of letter/number code on the flat sides of the handles, even though it looks more polished-away on the Protos.

 

[Oregon Dave]

Just to muddy the water a little more, here are a pair of Dunlap pliers with the same handle pattern.
Proto and Challenger pliers have a slightly different pattern.
-Don

There are other variation in what I call the ‘reversed cheveron’ handle grip pattern as well. It is also interesting to note the forged alphanumeric characters on the inside of the bottom handle shoulder, only, so far, in the pattern with the longitudinal spine and the offset end chevrons; missing on the others.

Also interesting that all your pliers are “stamped” with brand/company - question is for me who actually made them & where - Hank's Custom Pliers Forging Inc.?

 

[LesserSon]

A quick look on eBay for Lectrolite slipjoints (I don’t have any in my own collection) shows many with alphanumeric codes visible in that position. Many have a depressed-diamonds grip pattern, but some have the same chevrons pattern as the SK examples. Not a surprise because of the SK Lectrolite connection.

 

[Oregon Dave]

A quick look on eBay for Lectrolite slipjoints (I don’t have any in my own collection) shows many with alphanumeric codes visible in that position. Many have a depressed-diamonds grip pattern, but some have the same chevrons pattern as the SK examples. Not a surprise because of the SK Lectrolite connection.

If there is a book on the game plan of the contract production of tools; I'd buy it.

Even the rivets heads and the visible Two-Sided Nuts on the back side look similar.

 

[LesserSon]

Alloy Artifacts notes the date codes and the depressed diamonds grip pattern and suggests Lectrolite sourced slipjoints from Danielson.
I’d think that probably continued after Danielson was Proto-owned.
Maybe the difference in the chevrons pattern is contract versus Proto-branded. Or a change over time.

 

[LesserSon]

I there is a book on the game plan of the contract production of tools; I'd buy it.

By “game plan,” do you mean why did they do it, or something else?
Manufacturers lose potential revenue if their production lines are operating below capacity, but they also lose potential revenue if they can’t fill orders, so they would always be motivated to offer available production capacity to other manufacturers but also to lease production capacity from other manufacturers when needed. Nobody’s successful business model includes losing sales.

 

[MisterEd]

Rediscovered a couple of misplaced and forgotten Pliers.

"Forged Steel" device for squeezings things and, perhaps, tangentially related to Saw Sets?

 

[MisterEd]

and "No Name Wire Diagonal Cutter".

 

[Private Lugnutz]

"Forged Steel" device for squeezings things...

Before Bubba got a hold of it, that Heavy Duty Roach Clip used to be a pair of very common combination slip-joint pliers!

// BREAK //

^
^
Primary reason for contracting in the early days was to augment in-house offerings. Like many (I would hazard most) classic wrenching oriented mfgrs, Plomb didn't have the tool and die or the skill set to make pliers, for example, so they contracted production to Utica, until they bought J.P. Danielson.

 

[Eric Brown]

Here is a Fulton with the 312.1 Sears code for J.P. Danielson. The name and code were stamped. Also on both handles is a cast in number of A20. According to AA this might be a 1940 or 1950 production. The handles are plain, with no gripping pattern and the casting lines can clearly be seen. One is also bent possibly for a more comfortable grip. About 6 1/2" OAL.

 

[Oregon Dave]

By “game plan,” do you mean why did they do it, or something else?
Manufacturers lose potential revenue if their production lines are operating below capacity, but they also lose potential revenue if they can’t fill orders, so they would always be motivated to offer available production capacity to other manufacturers but also to lease production capacity from other manufacturers when needed. Nobody’s successful business model includes losing sales.

Definitely Something Else; to me solvency would be a given. It’s some about the history; some about the dynamics, would like knowing & understanding better.

Getting a lot of good stuff here.

 

[CCaillet]

The SigO, my Queen of Rusty Tools, brought these home today.

Craftsman Lineman's Pliers by Crescent
Craftsman Battery Pliers by Wilde
Utica 1000-10 "Giant Button's Pliers"

Found these at a yard sale yesterday.

 

[Eric Brown]

Found these at a yard sale yesterday.

Nice. Mine would have said "don't you already have enough?" She doesn't understand. Your lucky. Good find.

 

[d42jeep]

I posted these on the S-K thread but maybe they belong here. I plan to take a look at my Lectrolite plier handle patterns to see if I can make any sense of them.
-Don

 

[Ayrhead]

I picked these pliers up today as I didn’t recognize their purpose. No brand name that I could find on them. After some searching on the internet I have discovered that they are called Grozier Pliers. They are used for cutting/breaking /chipping glass and stained glass…

 

[Eric Brown]

I picked these pliers up today as I didn’t recognize their purpose. No brand name that I could find on them. After some searching on the internet I have discovered that they are called Grozier Pliers. They are used for cutting/breaking /chipping glass and stained glass…

Those are cool. Never seen them before. Thank you.

 

[Outlawmws]

I've used mine for small metal forming a time or two as well.

 

[Skyman]

Taught me something new. I'd always thought they were called glazier's pliers. It's a poor day when we don't learn something.

 

[Beerhippie]

Taught me something new. I'd always thought they were called glazier's pliers. It's a poor day when we don't learn something.

And I thought you were being sarcastic until I looked it up... yep, something new every day. I like it when I learn something new that doesn't involve hurting myself or others!

 

[Outlawmws]

And I thought you were being sarcastic until I looked it up... yep, something new every day. I like it when I learn something new that doesn't involve hurting myself or others!

I did the same thing, and looked it up both ways.

 

[Skyman]

Now if I ever find myself grozing, I’ll know what I’m doing.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Just in case we're all talking past each other here or there's a joke I don't understand, there's a difference between glazier's pliers and groziers. Groziers are very specialized for nipping and nibbling and correcting stained glass in little bites. They are not nearly as wide as glazier's pliers, which are typically not serrated, and used for snapping off a long piece of glass from a sheet of glass along a score. My father-in-law was a glazier.

Maybe that's what you all meant and I was just not following.

 

[d42jeep]

I posted these on the S-K thread but maybe they belong here. I plan to take a look at my Lectrolite plier handle patterns to see if I can make any sense of them.
-Don

I took a look at my Lectrolite/Tru-Fit pliers today. Here are the results. All the pliers with patterns look very Danielson
-Don

 

[Outlawmws]

Maybe that's what you all meant and I was just not following.

I'm just glad the weren't linking in Gozer!:

 

[Skyman]

Just in case we're all talking past each other here or there's a joke I don't understand, there's a difference between glazier's pliers and groziers. Groziers are very specialized for nipping and nibbling and correcting stained glass in little bites. They are not nearly as wide as glazier's pliers, which are typically not serrated, and used for snapping off a long piece of glass from a sheet of glass along a score. My father-in-law was a glazier.

Maybe that's what you all meant and I was just not following.

Nope, no joke. I was unaware that there was such a thing as a grozier pliers, and had erroneously thought that they were just a variant of a glazier's pliers and were so called.

As is surely evident by now, I've never glazed or grozed. But I now know the difference between their respective pliers.

Learning new stuff, often about old stuff, is why I haunt this forum. A tip of the cap to the many teachers here, who know more than I ever will, and are so generous with their time.

 

[Oregon Dave]

I took a look at my Lectrolite/Tru-Fit pliers today. Here are the results. All the pliers with patterns look very Danielson
-Don

Thank-You again for taking the time and effort to provides such great images.

The handle grip pattern sure looks Danielson; Cross-Hatched (Raised Ridges/Depressed Diamonds) with the transverse line at the ends. Lots of ‘Cross-Hatched’ around; Boker USA, Dunlap, Fulton, Hudson Forge are some that also used that many transverse end lines.

I see some alpha-numerics forged into at least one of the inside shoulders of a bottom handle on a Tru-Fit and a few visible two sided nuts on the backside of pivot bolts. It also should be noted the branding is stamped; suggesting contract products.

I am not asking, because you share and contribute so much; some rainy day - any more forged alpha-numerics in handle shoulders, are all backside nuts two-sided (those of course can be user modified, even reversed like on the thin-nosed), is there a correlation to the length of the pliers and the number of transverse lines in the grip pattern.

Thanks Again; really appreciate and learn so much from you and others here.

 

[d42jeep]

I believe that all the pliers had two sided nuts like the bottom pair with the reversed bolt.
-Don

 

[d42jeep]

I found these diagonals at an estate sale yesterday. No indication of manufacturer but made in Sheffield England. Perhaps one of our UK contributors will recognize them.
-Don

 

[LesserSon]

Don, I was looking through some design patents, and spotted AA Kreauter’s 1921 grip pattern, which DATAMP says was marketed as “Beauty Handle.”
It’s not identical, but similar enough that it seems like it could be the inspiration for, or common ancestor of, the two grip patterns we were comparing on Danielson/Pendleton and SK/Japan slipjoints.

 

[Oregon Dave]

I found these diagonals at an estate sale yesterday. No indication of manufacturer but made in Sheffield England. Perhaps one of our UK contributors will recognize them.
-Don

My grandmother was English.

My guess would be Witherby; especially if there is a nested diamond between the chevrons.

 

[LesserSon]

Well, well! Thank you, @Oregon Dave
I didn’t even notice the grip pattern on Don’s new heavy duty dikes. Now I do see the central diamond. And a quick dip elsewhere on the web does reveal several pliers with both the “Witherby England” and the chevron/diamond grips, though many Witherby pliers have smooth grips. One linesmans says only “Witherby” but forged in Germany, and two slipjoints say “Witherby” but forged in Japan.
So, Witherby-branded pliers made in England sometimes have that grip pattern, and some Witherby pliers were sourced outside England.
I compared my own chevron/diamond pliers’ model numbers (where visible) to similar models online, with no exact matches, but there may be a digit substitution pattern that would match them. I want more information about Witherby, and more examples of these pliers.
Here is a post on Progress is Fine that comes to a similar “maybe, but” conclusion.

 

[Oregon Dave]

Well, well! Thank you, @Oregon Dave
I didn’t even notice the grip pattern on Don’s new heavy duty dikes. Now I do see the central diamond. And a quick dip elsewhere on the web does reveal several pliers with both the “Witherby England” and the chevron/diamond grips, though many Witherby pliers have smooth grips. One linesmans says only “Witherby” but forged in Germany, and two slipjoints say “Witherby” but forged in Japan.
So, Witherby-branded pliers made in England sometimes have that grip pattern, and some Witherby pliers were sourced outside England.
I compared my own chevron/diamond pliers’ model numbers (where visible) to similar models online, with no exact matches, but there may be a digit substitution pattern that would match them. I want more information about Witherby, and more examples of these pliers.
Here is a post on Progress is Fine that comes to a similar “maybe, but” conclusion.

A pair of "Globemaster,” 6” needle-nose pliers stamped "Sheffield England 6146" also has the same handle grip pattern shown on the PIF site.

Globemaster, England, Sheffield, Germany, Japan - end of WWII entrepreneurship?

 

[LesserSon]

While I’m waiting for the universe to resolve that, I’ll post two damaged pliers that I inherited, each from a different grandfather.
“Little Wonder Chicago / Pat May 11, 1875”

And “UTEE-Co,”which I’ve tried to rationalize as a collaboration between JP Danielson and Utica Tool Co or the Utica Cutlery Co to go head-to-head with Crescent’s “CEE TEE Co.” Only, just today, I realized it’s not a “U” - it’s “JTEE-Co!” Just Danielson, then.

EDIT - Except, I’m wrong! There’s a pair of Danielson-mfd diamonds-grip pattern slipjoints on eBay that very cleary say “UTEE-CO / UTICA, N.Y.” with S91 code on one handle.



I think that’s X92 and V13 for alphanumeric codes.
EDIT - found catalog evidence that Danielson did mess around with cute brands. Dan-Co Jim
EDIT - BTW, here is a pair of Utica Cutlery Co slipjoints for comparison.

Interestingly, the row of coarser teeth is shaped to fit flat-sided, rather than round objects.