Pliers; How Many Is Too Many?

[LesserSon]

@Steven 33 posted a pair on Nov20 but the photos only show one side.

 

[Eric Brown]

@Steven 33 posted a pair on Nov20 but the photos only show one side.

Thanks to the name I found an earlier post that has lots of information.

Plier ID requested;

I believe someone told me years ago on ToolTalk but I can't remember. Park or Parker maybe?

www.garagejournal.com

 

[Private Lugnutz]

We have a Palmer Brother thread. (The Mega thread has grown on me, but it does also tend to make us forget that we have threads dedicated to most if it not ALL major pliers mfgrs, there is A LOT of detailed information on those pliers in those threads, and they are in many ways easier to navigate because the topic of thread is much narrower than this one.) And, it's in the A-Z Index of Threads in the Sticky for easy finding and access. But here ya go...

Palmer Brothers Tool Co.

Sigh...I got Bupkis as in Sergeant Schultz saying " I see nothing!, I know nothing!". First off I am very confused even in the name of the company I have so far... Palmer Brothers Tool Co. Palmer Brothers Tool & Forging. Palmer Welloct Tool Co. Palmer Welloct Tool Corp. Two Brothers and not...

www.garagejournal.com

 

[Outlawmws]

Neither. Can't take apart but the following post shows its Palmers patent 2152563 (1939). Its a rounded rectangle.

I know it's riveted and can't be easily disassembled. I don't think you are following me. move it on the sliding slot and show what can be seen at each end.... and/or an angled shot up the groove.

 

[pelletman]

I have no idea how many it too many, I have a ton and I just bought another pair. I guess if you know how many pliers you have you don't have many pliers.

Strong Hand Tools 7-inch Extractor Locking Pliers, Versatile Jaw Design, Fast Release, Hex Wrench and Clamp: Amazon.com: Tools & Home Improvement

Strong Hand Tools 7-inch Extractor Locking Pliers, Versatile Jaw Design, Fast Release, Hex Wrench and Clamp: Amazon.com: Tools & Home Improvement

www.amazon.com

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Wilde...[ ]...handle patterns

If you looked at my chart you probably saw that I added the one I think of as rope-y, Don, but not the shiny geometric one. Do you know when they were made? I can try to find them in a catalog later, but I am hoping you (or someone else) may know or do the legwork.

That is exactly the picture I had in my head when I typed that comment.

I am tempted to make a joke about not wanting to be in your head, but I'll go with, "Great minds think alike!" instead.

Not sure you really need to do that, because right about 1960-1965 we saw the introduction of vinyl-dipped handles. "Handle patterns" kind of became a thing of the past at that point.

Good point. Agreed.

Considering that the second-hand market is literally glutted with examples from Western Germany made post WWII, yes - those persistent inquiries about that massive amount of production will continue.

True. What I was referring to, though, was the considerable amount of interest in European pliers right here on the thread. Germany, England, etc. I'm just saying flat out that someone else can take that on.

we really need something like that for the logos

Where's that 'Both-hands-clapped-over-my-ears-going-'Na-na-na-na-na-I-can't-hear-you'!' emoji when you need it?!

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I was skipping through the thread looking for various things and came upon this old exchange.

Unmarked, but has distinctive grips that should permit a more knowledgeable person to identify:

Grips:

I'm moderately surprised that you've not seen that pattern before, Lugz. I was thinking you'd be among the folks who'd seen a number of them. That suggests they're rather rare, although that probably doesn't imply any great $ value, which is not of much interest to me anyway...[ ]...I like the "Open Books" description.

This goes way back, and you may already have figured this out yourself, but they've been subsequently identified as Wilde, or at least they appear on Wilde-marked pliers. This is the pattern I was asking Don to track down to a date in post #1,326 just above.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I'm working on a Page 2 of the handles chart. One of the things I am running into is attribution. I don't want to and should not be the sole arbiter. Page 1 was easy. They are the most prominent pliers makers with the most distinctive grip pattern handles and maybe some mid-majors, but also with distinctive handles, and therefore, there was very little to nothing to vet or discuss. That might get trickier with the next batch.

I am struggling with one brand already. Without naming it, based only on grip pattern, who would you say made these pliers?

(EDIT: I am withholding who I think it is, but this is not a stump-the-chump question. I want to see what others say in the blind.)

 

[four.cycle]

True. What I was referring to, though, was the considerable amount of interest in European pliers right here on the thread. Germany, England, etc. I'm just saying flat out that someone else can take that on.

^ It looks to me like our own @Eric Brown is determined to try to figure that part out. Between Witherby and Spiegel and Oxwall and the others, I find it all confusing as hell, and I struggle with the German language, although I do know the distinction between "zangen" and "zange".
But that's not a rabbit hole I want to climb down into, because (again) from where I sit, it looks like the post-WWII-to-mid-1960s era was glutted with German and British imports that could have been made by any number of small outfits. I submit: the "nested diamonds meets arrow fletching" pattern that both @LesserSon and I have been finding on various examples from Sheffield and other points. (I've been sending all of those to him in the hope he might at some point figure out where most of them came from and he's able to do a hands-on, side-by-side comparison.)

Where's that 'Both-hands-clapped-over-my-ears-going-'Na-na-na-na-na-I-can't-hear-you'!' emoji when you need it?!

You and me both. Still waiting for somebody to step up to the plate and take that one on. The folder is now up to almos 600 files.

 

[MisterEd]

'Both-hands-clapped-over-my-ears-going-'Na-na-na-na-na-I-can't-hear-you'!'

Appreciate your effort and the input of others to make Pliers almost important . . . as the Thread approaches its 2 year anniversary. If it was a marriage, of which I have had way too many, it'd be Cotton.

 

[Eric Brown]

I know it's riveted and can't be easily disassembled. I don't think you are following me. move it on the sliding slot and show what can be seen at each end.... and/or an angled shot up the groove.

Since I'm a curious person and others seemed interest, decided to take apart. Guess what. It's not a rivet but a nut/bolt with a copper thrust washer. Flattened the peened end and then used vee jaws to clamp the ends and unscrew. The center looks more like a rectangle with rounded ends. Enjoy.

 

[Outlawmws]

Since I'm a curious person and others seemed interest, decided to take apart. Guess what. It's not a rivet but a nut/bolt with a copper thrust washer. Flattened the peened end and then used vee jaws to clamp the ends and unscrew. The center looks more like a rectangle with rounded ends. Enjoy.

Thanks! -so not a lot different than a standard slip joint, just using a blind hole instead of through.

Man that's some rough machining on the mating surface...

The center looks more like a rectangle with rounded ends.

That started off a round boss and then flats cut to allow it to slide. I've made a couple of slip joint bolts by filing an appropriate screw. kind of a PITA...

 

[d42jeep]

If you looked at my chart you probably saw that I added the one I think of as rope-y, Don, but not the shiny geometric one. Do you know when they were made? I can try to find them in a catalog later, but I am hoping you (or someone else) may know or do the legwork.

What I discovered was that there isn’t much of a selection of Wilde catalogs available. The closest in appearance was in the ‘85 catalog. Unfortunately my smooth jaw pliers weren’t shown and the catalog images mostly hinted at the handle pattern. Pretty inconclusive
-Don

 

[LesserSon]

I'm working on a Page 2 of the handles chart. One of the things I am running into is attribution. I don't want to and should not be the sole arbiter. Page 1 was easy. They are the most prominent pliers makers with the most distinctive grip pattern handles and maybe some mid-majors, but also with distinctive handles, and therefore, there was very little to nothing to vet or discuss. That might get trickier with the next batch.

I am struggling with one brand already. Without naming it, based only on grip pattern, who would you say made these pliers?

(EDIT: I am withholding who I think it is, but this is not a stump-the-chump question. I want to see what others say in the blind.)

The bottom example is raised, not depressed diamonds, and has a border - IDK.
The other three look like JP Danielson to me, but I can see a resemblance to Barcalo, and early (pre- or non-circle-dot) Crescent (MoToRKit).

 

[d42jeep]

Here are some Barcalo tools with that pattern.
Early parrot jaw
Dykes
Barcalo had many different handle patterns over the years.
-Don

 

[LesserSon]

Contract production maybe encouraged same/similar shared patterns. Maybe there are some patterns that just have to be considered too generic to definitively indicate a single OEM.

 

[d42jeep]

I agree. Here are early Danielson pliers.
-Don

 

[Eric Brown]

Vom Cleff tools that I have. Info I found about him:

(Name removed), I can add just a little more-Goin's Enclyclopedia of Cutlery Markings dates it to 1885-1926. Throughout the company existence, their headquarters was literally next door to Boker. Vom Cleff was located at 105 Duane St. NY and Boker was next door at 101-103 Duane St., NY. In all likelihood, they got their deliveries from the same trucks. LOL.-A fairly rare knife, and yours appears to be in great condition for it's age--I am assuming you bought it off of ebay for $129.- Worth that or more. Most sources list Vom Cleff knives as medium in the value range, but it is hard to find a 100 year old knife in such fine condition IMHO, a good snag on a very well made old German knife. BTW, that is not the first Vom Cleff I have seen with that purse-like case--- That is indeed the case that goes with that knife, thus adding to its value----

Vom Cleff & Co. according to the Official Guide to Collector knives was imported from 1887- 1930. Some info on the founder of the import co https://books.google.com/books?id=LSEtAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA184&lpg...

Pair of 6" outside calipers marked Vom Cleff & Co NY, pair of scissor like cutters (maybe for lettuce?) marked Vom Cleff & Co Germany D.R.G.M., Vom Cleff & Co Germany Corn Razor, also marked on blade, 2 pairs of pliers marked on the inside of the handles, VC&Co Germany, 2 pairs of pliers 1st marked Acier Fondl & VC Co on top of handles with France inside one handle, 2nd pair marked France VC&Co on top of handles and Acierfondu.

One pair each from Germany and France have similar box joints. Have joints similar to Wenz and Elko. Will do a separate post on pliers from Europe with box joints for comparisons.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Still waiting for somebody to step up to the plate and take that one on. The folder is now up to almost 600 files

This is waaaay off the pliers topic here, but this is actually in the 'juice/squeeze?' question category for me. It crosses over into my post just upthread about the differences between Mega tool Type threads (multitudes of brands, subtypes, participants, but quickly everchanging and interlaced topics, difficult to follow, navigate, find things, maintain cohesion and continuity, etc) and hyper focused tool Brand threads, which tend to be much more proficient. For example, I have a chart showing a very detailed Bonney logo progression in the Bonney thread. Similar references for Plomb, Williams, Blackhawk, etc, in their respective threads. Could that all be condensed and merged? Yes. But, as tantalizing as it may seem, as easily as it can be visualized, the scale of an industry wide logo reference could quickly reach a law of diminishing returns threshold.

We may (probably?) have drastically different ideas about the objective. IF I was creating this kind of Infographic, it would not be one long A-Z, but several A-Z's, in categories: Major (maybe 35 max), Mid-Major (50-ish), Minor (50-ish), Obscure But Notable (50-ish), and Other (TBD). Or something like that. Geared toward probability of need and use, not encyclopedic exhaustiveness.

Otherwise, "ET" (not that "ET"), Edward Tufte, my former mentor (see bookshelf), would have a conniption.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

What I discovered was that there isn’t much of a selection of Wilde catalogs available. The closest in appearance was in the ‘85 catalog.

Thanks. I will just place it in the nebulous 'Later' column.

The other three look like JP Danielson to me, but I can see a resemblance to Barcalo,

Thanks for helping, LS. All of them are branded Barcalo. But without the branding, I would identify them ALL as early J.P. Danielson.

...and early (pre- or non-circle-dot) Crescent (MoToRKit).

I have early Crescent pliers with the checkered-diamond pattern. They don't usually have left and right borders.

Maybe there are some patterns that just have to be considered too generic to definitively indicate a single OEM.

Agreed. Pexto is in this category, too. Maybe the best approach is to make a separate area on Page 2, or its own Page 3, where we plot them all and all the potential mfgrs.

 

[Eric Brown]

This is waaaay off the pliers topic here, but this is actually in the 'juice/squeeze?' question category for me. It crosses over into my post just upthread about the differences between Mega tool Type threads (multitudes of brands, subtypes, participants, but quickly everchanging and interlaced topics, difficult to follow, navigate, find things, maintain cohesion and continuity, etc) and hyper focused tool Brand threads, which tend to be much more proficient. For example, I have a chart showing a very detailed Bonney logo progression in the Bonney thread. Similar references for Plomb, Williams, Blackhawk, etc, in their respective threads. Could that all be condensed and merged? Yes. But, as tantalizing as it may seem, as easily as it can be visualized, the scale of an industry wide logo reference could quickly reach a law of diminishing returns threshold.

We may (probably?) have drastically different ideas about the objective. IF I was creating this kind of Infographic, it would not be one long A-Z, but several A-Z's, in categories: Major (maybe 35 max), Mid-Major (50-ish), Minor (50-ish), Obscure But Notable (50-ish), and Other (TBD). Or something like that. Geared toward probability of need and use, not encyclopedic exhaustiveness.

Otherwise, "ET" (not that "ET"), Edward Tufte, my former mentor (see bookshelf), would have a conniption.

Personally, I would use a list like this to track down possible matches. In that case, having similar patterns grouped together would make sense. I can also see where somebody is trying to complete a collection and so grouping by maker would be better. So I will go out on a limb here and suggest there be one master list in the mega tool list and separate lists for each of the maker threads. I also can see where this would be asking a lot out of anybody. Probably just a dream.

 

[Eric Brown]

Here are two Menz Germany tools, a cutter and needle nose. The needle nose have box joints similar to the Von Cleff and Elko posted earlier.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

^ I was actually talking about a logos/TMs reference there in reply to 4.c, Eric. But I understand your input.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

X-linking from the OTC thread a pair of OTC Lock Ring pliers I just posted there with a very deeply knurled handle pattern.

Vintage oTc tools,anyone else here collect them?

My father-in-law worked at OTC for almost 40 years. He designed many of the tools you see. I now have what is left of his. I will try and upload a few shots. Many of them were sold at yard sale before I could get to them. He had about 5 chest full. I was not able to get a chest. Just pieces of...

www.garagejournal.com

 

[MisterEd]

quickly everchanging and interlaced topics, difficult to follow, navigate, find things, maintain cohesion and continuity, etc)

Some Threads draw people out who might have been Lurking when they see that they "know enough about that pair of pliers over there that belonged to my grand uncle" to contribute to a very general conversation. The "Welcomes" to those new people along with encouragement and observations from so many knowledgeable accumulators of old stuff (even when they've only a vague idea of what it is . . . unless it's a Saw Set of course) have probably led many people to be active members of this Forum.

Y'all keep doin' what you been doin' whether it's pliers or "Perfect Handles." Helps to enrich my days.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

^ Hopefully you didn't read anything critical into that, Ed. Especially because I wasn't talking about the Pliers thread, per se, which is actually a relative newcomer to the Type category, e.g., Vises, Toolboxes, DOE wrenches, DBE wrenches, Hammers, etc, a few of which are MY Threads (Tappet wrenches)!

If you look in the Sticky, you can see the full list of threads by Type, and of course those by Brand. They both have their place and value and some of the pros and cons are just the nature of the beast in the difference in scope in terms of using the forums for both enjoyment and as a resource for the knowledge base part of the hobby - which not everyone is even interested in.

If we had an 'Administrative housekeeping' sort of thread, a thread to talk about the forum, not tools, by type or brand, it would've been better served for me to put it there.

As you know I have been here since Page 1, December 2023, I have re-posted my entire pliers collection - by type, linked alot of others, and contributed to other conversations - to the tune of 212 posts!

Oh, and whenever Mrs. Lugz says she's going to Playa Bowls and asks me if I want anything, she doesn't laugh when I say, "Combination Slip-Joints!"

 

[MisterEd]

^ Hopefully you didn't read anything critical into that, Ed.

Nah. Said it cuz I know how I lurked for a long time and how it felt to finally say something and now I know how to distinguish Saw Sets from . . . other things.

You and a buncha people make it all informative and worth spending time here. The Sticky is a frequent starting point as is the Looooong list of manufacturers that would be difficult to do without.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

...as the Thread approaches its 2 year anniversary. If it was a marriage, of which I have had way too many, it'd be Cotton.

You have three years to find a pair of wooden fuze pullers by 2028 for the 5th anniversary.

Between the copper in BeCu and the bronze in AlBr, the thread will be festooned with 7th and 8th anniversary pliers in 2030 and 2031.

And for the 11th, well, let's just say we're already well-prepared.

 

[d42jeep]

Thanks. @LesserSon nailed it. Branded "GITTATIT" (in the same mode as but preceding 'Git 'er done!' by 100 years! ) There are a few on the H.D. Smith thread and now a fourth here for me to be so happy for you guys about.



Here's one of the crisper markings...

It seems that it often happens that when an oddball tool is shown, another is not far behind. I found this pair at today’s estate sale.
-Don

 

[lastill]

.

Oh woow, these handles are really beautiful!

 

[Steven 33]

Awesome. If I am coming off like a nabob of negativity, let me declare that I sure hope it can be legibly ID'ed! I'm just re-emphasizing that unlike many other cases where we have many known examples by known mfgrs with many known characteristics (profile, grip pattern, etc) that can be identified even without a legible marking, Stevens would not be the case.

It's semi legible in person with the right light and angle, but difficult to get a good picture. Maybe I'll try again. I do have probably 12 or so verified tools from them from the same lot, and I'm not quite sure who else it could be but, I wouldn't say I'm 100% convinced yet either. Once I find a way to sort through everything I'll probably revisit it.

 

[Steven 33]

A few pliers. I thought the barcalo ones were interesting being marked on both sides.

 

[Steven 33]

Here’s a pair on Worthpoint, like shown at the bottom of that catalog page (No75 thin nose, not the two “ignition” examples).

Posted already in another thread but here's a carbon scraper with the Stevens marking. I also have those no. 75 pliers But I haven't had a chance to clean up yet.

 

[Steven 33]

Unusual German pliers. They are marked "Reade Work", "Germany" and "PAT APLD FOR". There is also a "5" on both sides. Has the screwdriver and punch handle ends. The unusual feature is at the nose end. It has been angled down with a couple of small 1/8" posts sticking up that have a grooved gripping surface. Any ideas?

Those look similar to these kind of

 

[Outlawmws]

It's semi legible in person with the right light and angle, but difficult to get a good picture.

Anytime it gets hard to read, chalk and a thumb wipe will often help a lot, and works better for pics as well.

 

[Skyman]

I was skipping through the thread looking for various things and came upon this old exchange.



This goes way back, and you may already have figured this out yourself, but they've been subsequently identified as Wilde, or at least they appear on Wilde-marked pliers. This is the pattern I was asking Don to track down to a date in post #1,326 just above.

Thanks, Lugz.

Yes, I did see that they'd been identified as Wilde, which pleased me. I really like the pattern on the grips, and I also like that Wilde still manufactures some quality slip-joint pliers here in the USA. I bought two trios of their flush-fasteners last year, one for the garage and one for the basement workshop. Very good quality, IMHO, and at a very reasonable price point:

 

[four.cycle]

^ Wilde is currently the manufacturer of the best "slip-joint" type pliers on the planet. The rest are "also rans".

These arrived today:


Tekton PGA36310 10-inch "Angle Nose Push Button Adjustable Pliers"

Interesting design. They seem, as @Fedwrench would say, "fiddly".... at least that is my initial impression right out of the box.

Indestro 2097A 8-inch slip-joint pliers.

I don't believe Indestro made these. I think they were a buy-out from another manufacturer. Just my lousy opinion.


Indestro 2108 8-inch duckbill pliers

I don't think Indestro made these either, but duckbills are some of my most commonly-used tools, and I can NOT find my other pair.
Fortunately both these showed up cheap in a recent ebay listing.

 

[Skyman]

I haven’t handled any of that type from Tekton, but I have a few similar from Knipex. I agree about their adjustment mechanisms. I feel clumsy when I use them.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Oh woow, these handles are really beautiful!

Agreed! Classic Crescent "Checkerdot," if you're new to vintage pliers and grip patterns. You will see collectors use various names for various patterns, just to make it easier to discuss, but some names, including the Crescent "Checkerdot" come directly from their own technical and marketing literature.

Tekton PGA36310 10-inch bla bla bla

Interesting design. They seem bla bla bla

I haven’t handled any of that type from Tekton, but I bla bla bla

Don't make me get the "This is the Vintage Tools Discussion Forum" hammer out!

 

[Skyman]

Apology offered for my transgressions, kind sir!