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Pliers; How Many Is Too Many?

d42jeep

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I found these Diamond tools at Thursday’s estate sales and got around to taking them out of the evaporust yesterday. IMG_5259.jpeg
The snips came out looking good and I adjusted the screw and nut to take out the excessive play. IMG_5291.jpegIMG_5292.jpeg
The pliers came out okay with kind of an uneven finish.
IMG_5300.jpegIMG_5301.jpeg
Handle patterns. IMG_5302.jpegIMG_5303.jpeg
-Don
 
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Private Lugnutz

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Barcalo had many different handle patterns over the years.
I am working on Page 2 today. Including Barcalo. In the grouping of pliers that followed this statement, I cannot discern any differences. Whatever we want to call this pattern, cross-hatched, forming the appearance of a field of many tiny diamonds (in between the cross-hatching), with borders on both sides that are usually either 2 or 3 longitudinal bars. I also discern no difference between the pattern in that grouping, and the groups of parrot nose and dykes that preceded that grouping.

As LS pointed out in my blind test, most of them are forged (raised), making the diamonds recessed. One of them is knurled, making the diamonds raised.

In summary, I am plotting three patterns on the Barcalo row: forged cross-hatched, knurled cross-hatched, and the much later "lattice" one.

Are there other distinctive Barcalo patterns I am missing?
 

Eric Brown

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Not sure about these. The seller called them seaming pliers. They are marked "GERMANY" and a word I can't figure out (second picture). They are about 9" long. The head is somewhat ball shaped with flat gripping areas about 1" across.
Found more info. According to some sources these may be for both curling using a wooden spindle and the round clamping area by the "jaws", and also for straightening in the smooth parts of the jaws.

A group of curling irons (pliers). Below that are two curling pliers. One is simply marked France while the other is Acier, C9, Germany, and KB inside a circle next to Brand.

Curling Group.jpg
 

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LesserSon

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The battery wrench scavenger hunt on the Bonney thread got me looking more closely at wartime Bonney pliers illustrations, which led to noticing two different models (B15 & B537) of side-cutting slip-joints, which is going to lead to a reexamination of Bonney pliers I’ve assumed were Utica production. The apparent grip patterns in the illustrations, some explicitly described as Champion DeArment, has me wondering about that generic-looking Barcalo/Danielson/Crescent knurl/diamonds pattern.
IMG_7949.jpegIMG_7955.jpeg
 

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four.cycle

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Private Lugnutz

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The Indestro models are vintage.
Agreed. Which is why I didn't include them in my quotes. But you know I was just teasing, right?! :)
Apology offered for my transgressions, kind sir!
Snerk.
wartime Bonney pliers illustrations,
Those all look J.P. Danielson to me. They have more border bars/bumps than Barcalo. And if that's the '41 catalog, they didn't move to the 'herringbone' pattern yet.
 

LesserSon

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I agree, Lugz - the two slipjoints where you can actually see the pattern look Danielson.
My attention was drawn to the B537, of which I do not own an example. It has a strong resemblance to the Utica sidecutting slipjoints I posted upthread, but it is shown in the Bonne catalog as Champion DeArment. I wish I could see the “knurled” pattern in the illustration. I do not own the CD equivalent, but I have a few similar Channellock slipjoints (one with smooth grips), and the profile is similar to Utica slipjoints (the gullwing flare seems variable by model and by size in bothe EOMs).
If Channellock and Utica both made a sidecutting slipjoints with a “knurled” grip pattern for Bonney, I’m not confident I could easily distinguish between them. Even the forged-in alphanumeric on the sides is similar-looking.
IMG_7965.jpeg
 

Private Lugnutz

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My attention was drawn to the B537, of which I do not own an example.
I don't either. By the way, I do have the B15 combination side-cutting slip-joints, sourced from J.P. Danielson. (See attached.)

So...
I never see them. Or maybe I subconsciously ignore them.
:ROFLMAO:
I don't pay enough attention to my Bonney box when it comes to pliers, because they weren't an OEM.

I wonder why they sourced the B537 combination side-cutting slip-joints from Champion DeArment? Only differences I see are the OAL and maybe a slimmer nose. Btw, I think you know I have 20+ unique Champ D pliers, and I do not have those. I'd have to consult the catalogs to even know the Champ D model number.
 

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Private Lugnutz

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If Channellock and Utica both made a sidecutting slipjoints with a “knurled” grip pattern for Bonney, I’m not confident I could easily distinguish between them.
I know your point was to hypothetically emphasize their indistinguishability otherwise, but they would almost certainly have the Champ D arrow flight pattern if Champ D. But now I have a left field question for you. I don't own too many Bonney pliers, but of those I do, all of the pivot joints (dykes, needle-nose, etc) are sourced from Utica (smooth handle) and all the slip-joints are sourced from either Crescent or J.P. Danielson. Do you have ANY Bonney pliers made by Champ D? If so, they have the arrow flight pattern grips, right?
 

Eric Brown

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Here are a couple I could use help identifying. The one pair only has Drop Forged on both handles. No other markings and plain handles. The second pair is only marked with a couple triangles with a dot in the middle.
 

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LesserSon

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I was looking at Alloy Artifacts’ PS&W linemans pliers, which they credit to Utica, based on the nearly identical grip pattern. This has bothered me off and on, partly because I have bought rusted box joint PS&Ws thinking they were Utica, and partly because I thought I’d since learned to distinguish them.
PS&W handles are generally heavier, and the depressed diamonds grip pattern (when present), always has a V-terminating top and never has a speedbump at the bottom. Uticas usually betray the remains of a lower speedbump, even when it is mostly polished away. IMG_7913.jpeg
(top pair above is Utica)
Further, the head is more like Utica’s lighter No50 than their heavier No1950, but always has a flat-walled (hexish) well for the cutters, whereas Utica 50s always have a round well and Utica 1950s always have the hexish well.
IMG_7915.jpeg
(PS&W at top, above, Utica at bottom)
IMG_7911.jpeg
(all PS&W)
The PS&W cutters are almost always on a convex surface proud of the rest of the head (I have one that is flat flush), while Utica cutters are almost always flat flush (I have one that is convex proud).
IMG_7908.jpeg
(all PS&W)
Most PS&W pivot pins (both lap-joint and box-joint) have five flats locking them - I have not seen this detail on Utica.
IMG_7922.jpeg
(PS&W above)
Lastly, Uticas of the era with V-terminating grip pattern always have a forged-in 3-diamonds logo inside the handles (or shadows if highly polished), but PS&W examples don’t, even when other forging marks remain after finishing.
IMG_7923.jpeg
(Utica at top, above; two PS&W at bottom)
I’m not arguing that AA is necessarily wrong (surely, there’s SOME reason the two grip patterns are so similar), but to me, the preponderance of evidence of every other part of the pliers suggests their conclusion should be phrased in more tentative terms.
Not to walk back that criticism concerning Utica OEM evidence for PEXTO linesman pliers, but I thought I should apply some of it to Bonney linesman pliers, with uncertain results.
I have three pair of Bonney linesman pliers, and they are apparently all from the same era and mfr. I have assumed they were Utica-made, but there are some problems.
IMG_7974.jpegIMG_7975.jpegIMG_7976.jpeg
IMG_7975.jpeg
The heads are identical to neither Utica’s heavy duty no1950 nor to the lighter no50. Like the PEXTOs, they combine the hexish cutter well with a slender head, and the outer facets don’t exactly match either Utica form.
On the other hand, I have one ca1955 Bell System linesman pliers clearly marked Utica, which has the New England head style popularized by Klein, so differing heads for different contracts were obviously within Utica’s wheelhouse.
Looking at 6” Utica linesman pliers across a wider range of production eras doesn’t provide any better matches. IMG_7979.jpegIMG_7977.jpegIMG_7978.jpeg
From these comparisons, I think the only obvious conclusion is that I must buy more Bonney and Utica pliers!:ROFLMAO:
 

LesserSon

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I know your point was to hypothetically emphasize their indistinguishability otherwise, but they would almost certainly have the Champ D arrow flight pattern if Champ D. But now I have a left field question for you. I don't own too many Bonney pliers, but of those I do, all of the pivot joints (dykes, needle-nose, etc) are sourced from Utica (smooth handle) and all the slip-joints are sourced from either Crescent or J.P. Danielson. Do you have ANY Bonney pliers made by Champ D? If so, they have the arrow flight pattern grips, right?
Oops! I missed this post, and I thought I had included this photo, showing that Channellocks sometimes have smooth handles (smoother than I’d assume the blue dip coat conceals).
IMG_7966.jpeg
Looking hard at the Bonney cat illustrations, I don’t think the broad arrow flight pattern is depicted, and certainly not well-described by “knurled.” Maybe the earlier, reedy-looking narrow arrow flight pattern (I don’t have any examples), but I still balk at “knurled” describing that pattern, either.
Bottom line, I do not have any Bonney-marked pliers with the arrow flight pattern, nor any co-branded Champ-D, so I don’t really know if I have Bonney pliers where Champ-D is OEM. What I do know is I have some smooth-handled Bonney pliers that I have assumed were Utica-made, but now I’m not so sure.
For example, these two -
IMG_7988.jpegIMG_7990.jpegIMG_7989.jpegI have no Utica dopplegangers of them. I have multiple models of Utica sidecutter longnose, all with round cutter wells, and none with hexish wells. I’m thinking Crescent for both.
On the other hand,
IMG_7992.jpegIMG_7991.jpegdespite being almost identical, it seems clear to me that the Bonney self-gripping pliers in this sandwich are Utica, not Channellock (all smooth grips). The “pat. apl’d for” indicates Utica’s US2622464, the forging process, not Channellock’s US2592927 rib pattern (both Utica and Bonney retain that), nor US2640381 imoroved rib pattern.
IMG_7993.jpeg
 
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Private Lugnutz

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Channellocks sometimes have smooth handles...
Yes. But if they have a grip pattern, it's only the early or later arrow flights. I've never seen Champ D pliers that weren't smooth or one of those patterns. I guess what I'm saying is..., I took your point to be purely hypothetical and rhetorical. You think the Utica and the Champ D combo S-J's with the ****-like side-cutters are so alike that if they were Bonney-branded and had the same grip pattern it would be hard to identify the OEM.
 

LesserSon

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Yes. But if they have a grip pattern, it's only the early or later arrow flights. I've never seen Champ D pliers that weren't smooth or one of those patterns. I guess what I'm saying is..., I took your point to be purely hypothetical and rhetorical. You think the Utica and the Champ D combo S-J's with the ****-like side-cutters are so alike that if they were Bonney-branded and had the same grip pattern it would be hard to identify the OEM.
Right - there is a very slight difference of form, where the head and handles transition, and maybe an additional tooth in the Uticas’ jaws.
 
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Private Lugnutz

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Did you consult the chart? :)

That's a really deep and wide cross-hatched knurl. Wide, meaning, the diamonds that it forms are bigger and much smaller in number than we see on the seemingly amorphous cross-hatched diamond patterns (JPD, Barcalo, etc).

I'm not swearing by this, and I'm not even suggesting this is the OEM, but until this bout of energy caused by the idea of a grip patterns chart prompted me to go through my pliers, I never really thought of OTC and pliers together, and I never took note of the grip pattern on the OTC pliers I just cross-linked from the OTC thread recently. Also very deep and wide. Although the diamonds are more vertical (narrower) than horizontal (wider) on the OTC.
 

LesserSon

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I dunno anymore, but I think the Bonney on the right is Utica, based on the forged-in alphanumeric code at the shoulder of the handle.
IMG_7997.jpeg
The grip pattern (on top, below) seems to back this up.IMG_7998.jpeg
But the grip pattern of the other, codeless Bonney (at bottom, above) looks…what do you guys think?
 

d42jeep

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Okay, here are the Barcalo handle pattern results, Part one. Tools in the basement will be part two.
Border lines at either end of the patterns.IMG_5386.jpegIMG_5385.jpegIMG_5384.jpegIMG_5387.jpegIMG_5388.jpeg
No border lines. IMG_5382.jpegIMG_5383.jpeg
Lattice pattern. IMG_5381.jpegIMG_5380.jpeg
Border lines at one end. IMG_5391.jpeg
-Don
Part two of the Barcalo handle pattern project.
Here are the pliers that went with the last photo of part one.IMG_5393.jpegIMG_5392.jpegIMG_5391.jpeg
These show the pliers with the Crescent pattern from the large red set. All the other pliers in the set have smooth handles.IMG_5402.jpegIMG_5403.jpegIMG_5406.jpeg
NOS pliers with the lattice pattern.IMG_5410.jpegIMG_5411.jpeg
A set with lattice pattern pliers. The other pliers in the set have smooth handles. IMG_5407.jpegIMG_5408.jpeg
-Don
 

Private Lugnutz

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Part one.
Thanks, Don. If the hive mind agrees, I'll show a No Border, a One Border, and a Two Borders.
what do you guys think?
I think this is the reason why I wanted to avoid this kind of pattern altogether! :) Not Utica. More like J.P. Danielson. But they usually had more border bars.
 

four.cycle

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Just a note:
Several of us were puzzling over a wrench that another member showed up with a few days ago.
I fired off an inquiry and got a reply back from our friend at AA, who unbeknownst to me has really been doing some serious work on expanding his site and has really done some homework on Japanese Tool Makers, and who replied with the maker's name and some information. Timely and germane to this conversation, as he's made sure to include logos, herald marks, and handle pattern photos. (y)
 

four.cycle

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^ Exactly, which is why I felt it appropriate to post that now. Eric is burning a lot of calories trying to suss out foreign makers, so that should be of some help to him. And @LesserSon might hopefully be able to figure out who some of those oddball patterns belong to.
And I still have hundreds of "unknown" *.jpg files I've yet to be able to identify.
 

Debcrow

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These are not all vintage. Some I bought this weekend at yard sales and some others I had laying around.

Witco 297 Pliers Wrench, these are not old and I am pretty sure they had plastic handle covers. No Pattern on handles.

Vlchek, Hunter wheel weight, CEETEE, PDQ wheel weight, Willard battery, Harrold, LeverWrench #7, Channellock 426.

Wilde 404 angle tip and MAC P-21-A made by Wilde.

Lectrolite TruFit with C 10 8 P cast in handle, probably made by Danielson.

Craftsman Vanadium Linesman, Champion DeArment made?

All127em.JPG

Not all had handle patterns, these are the ones that did.
Handle pattern, top to bottom: Wilde, MAC, Craftsman
wdaEM.JPG

Handle Pattern top to bottom: CEETEE, Lectrolite TruFit, Harrold

thcEM.JPG

Close ups of some logos
WILLem.JPGPDQem.JPGtrufitEM.JPGwildem.JPGCTem.JPGCH426em.JPGHUNTem.JPG
 
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d42jeep

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I removed most of the rust with a wire wheel and refinished the smooth surface with my 220 then 400 3M rotary wheels. I cleaned up the plastic handles with a quick rub from a paper towel soaked with brake cleaner. I used a die grinder with a 3M fine Roloc disc to get right up to the plastic handles without actually touching them. If that sounds involved, it probably took less than 10 minutes. Don’t forget a liberal application of Fluid Film to prevent them from rusting again.
-Don
 
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Etchase

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^After being completely repulsed by the aroma of fluid film, your recommendation and how you seem to be able to pull out any tool from your collection without rust, got me to try it again. After a couple of months, I acclimated to the aroma, and don’t find it that bad anymore. The fluid film seems to be very long lasting, and even stuff I haven’t touched in a year seems to still be protected. Thanks for the tip.
 
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