Plomb tool picture thread - show your stuff!

[twertsy]

If you're referring to the Registered Trademark symbol, that was established in 1946. It's a good postwar tell for WWII collectors in the know on uncertain pieces. I don't know when Plomb started including it in their markings, but that's an interesting side-question. Not 1946, obviously. Not early 50s either, because there's plenty of PROTO without it. Another interesting side-question is when they started marking the detent with the star. All Plomb Empire (PROTO, PENENS, Fleet, etc) drive tool pieces with female openings had it at some point, including extensions. I just think of it as 50s or later, because I don't have too many reasons to be more specific than that. But it might be useful to know when.

I've never seen the "circle R" indicating registered TM on any Plomb or Proto LA marked tool. Advertisements yes, but not on tools.

 

[Smokeshow69]

How about this?

-Don

I have submitted this design to the beverage manufacturer and I will post more as things progress !


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[Private Lugnutz]

I've never seen the "circle R" indicating registered TM on any Plomb or Proto LA marked tool. Advertisements yes, but not on tools.

Me neither, Todd.

The catalogs provide an interesting evolutionary curve on this subject. The Plomb name on every catalog up to 1948 was devoid of any annotations. The Proto name on the cover and first page of the 1948 Plomb Tool Co Catalog No. 4820 is accompanied by the annotation, "REG US PAT OFF" (which can be read as, "Registered with the US Patent and Trademark Office"). On the cover of the 1966 P&C Tool Company (a subsidiary of Pendleton Tool Industries, Inc.) Catalog, the P&C Tool Company logo on the inside cover is accompanied by the circle-R Registered Trademark symbol. It's a big jump between 1948 and 1966, and I would bet they started using it in literature well before that, I just thought that was interesting.

 

[Username already in use]

Here's a few Plomb pieces for discussion.
The [S.R.] stamped ratchet is obviously Plomb made, as is the universal joint. The 1/2" drive socket looks like it's WF marked counterpart.

The lot came with a long extension , t-bar handle, and sliding T with similar finish, but otherwise unmarked. The sliding T is consistent with it's WF marked counterpart as well.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

The [S.R.] stamped ratchet is obviously Plomb made...

That's a missing link, Unaiu!

"We" (those of us who own and have discussed sockets with the [S.R.] branding before) have "known" (as best as we can know without definitive historical documentation) that the sockets were Plomb made by eyetest and measurements (credit R_olson6!), but I have never seen a ratchet, I don't think anyone else has, either, and, if there was still any doubt, that pretty much definitively nails the Plomb OEM connection. I wish the stamping was identical to the stamping on the sockets that have been found (i.e., "[S.R.]"), with the periods after the initials, and a complete rectangle around them, because some may question those differences, but I am convinced.

It doesn't help resolve who Plomb made them for (I am on record stating that I think they are production for a user, not re-sale/re-brand, and one completely speculative guess I have made is Sinclair Refinery), but it's a significant find.

Well done.

Good thread here for further reading, more examples, and, my suggestion, cross-linking of your photos!

 

[3baygarage]

Nice collection UAIU. Pretty sure I saw a 1/2 breaker bar on the bay recently with some ratchets.

Lugz, the ratchets have been known of for quite a while. There are a fair amount out there.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

S.r. sears roebuck?

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Lugz, the ratchets have been known of for quite a while. There are a fair amount out there.

Really? Okay. Thanks. That's good to know. Not sure why there was ever any even a shred of doubt/discussion about the sockets then. In the two threads I participated in, one here (linked above) and one on GG, no ratchets. But I trust you. EDIT: Actually, there was a ratchet in the other thread, and guess who pooh-poohed it for not having periods and a rectangle around it?! I'm either going soft, or I was being unduly hard back then. You guys can decide for yourselves! HAHA

Unaiu: Scratch the missing link excitement! Ho-hum. Yawn.
(Seriously, even if it was only me who was unaware of them, thanks for making my less-than-fully-informed understanding of the Plomb OEM connection even stronger! )

 

[Private Lugnutz]

S.r. sears roebuck?

I'm not a believer in the idea, but it's been proposed before, Otg. Previous thread linked here.

 

[3baygarage]

I always thought it was a matter of who they were made for, not by.

S.r. sears roebuck?

That’s been a question unanswered. No one on here has confirmed anything as to the brand or reason for the stamp.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

And before anyone who hasn't read the old thread suggests Sturtevant-Richmont, I de-bunked that last year. They didn't form until 1974.

 

[RagTopTA]

I have one of the SR marked half inch drive ratchets as well. I almost bought that set myself!

 

[d42jeep]

Just a thought since they've been found all over the country. How about contract tools for a railroad? Santa Fe RR and Southern Pacific RR come to mind immediately. There are probably other "S" railroads I didn't think of.
-Don

 

[bmwrd0]

To your refinery point, Lugz, I have a socket and a Phillips driver, both obviously made by Proto, both marked Chevron. (found both at a swap right next to a Chev. refinery)

 

[misterbill]

Just a thought since they've been found all over the country. How about contract tools for a railroad? Santa Fe RR and Southern Pacific RR come to mind immediately. There are probably other "S" railroads I didn't think of.
-Don

Southern Railroad maybe - "Southern Serves the South" - or at least they did until they merged with Norfolk Western to form Norfolk Southern.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

To your refinery point, Lugz, I have a socket and a Phillips driver, both obviously made by Proto, both marked Chevron. (found both at a swap right next to a Chev. refinery)

The oilfield sector (pipelines, refineries, etc) was a huge user/customer of hand tools. Still is! I have to admit I didn't come up with it on my own. I found it by the crude, bulk method, leafing through hundreds of pages of company names beginning with "S" (and looking for a second name beginning with "R") in the War Production Board's Major War Supply Contracts records (1940-1945). Why? I figured, (1) because the tools were made during or immediately after that time period, (2) if there was a major company out there buying tools from Plomb and marking them proprietarily they probably had some wartime work, and (3) it was just a handy directory of company names in alphabetical order.

The only S.R. that stuck out as a good possibility to me was Sinclair Refining Company. That's exactly how the name was listed. They were a huge operation. They had hundreds of contracts in several locations, including Sinclair and Parco, Wyoming; Corpus Christi, Fort Worth, and Houston, Texas; Sand Springs, OK; Coffeyville and Kansas City, Kansas; East Chicago, Indiana; Philadelphia and Marcus Hook, PA; and Wellesville and New York, NY. They sold $310,177,000 worth of oil products (oil, fuel oil, aviation fuel, lubricating oil, gasoline, diesel, etc) to the Army, Army Air Corps, and Navy during WWII.

But I am not stuck on it. It really is just a simple "S.R." match up and there could be a better possibility out there.

 

[RagTopTA]

Is there anywhere a person could find out what contracts Plomb had with companies to make tools for them?

 

[Oldtuleguy]

It's an interesting little mystery

 

[RubiconJK]

Is there anywhere a person could find out what contracts Plomb had with companies to make tools for them?

The Vannatta website does list several of the markings associated with various Plomb contracts but other than the WF inventory, they did not list known tools of the time that were part of these contracts. Plombob's old site touched on these a bit more and he had the only Ranger A.T. listing that I've seen. His site is no longer accessible, I think Twertsy was talking to Plombob about adding his data to Tool Archives.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

That would be awesome. Hate to lose that info.

 

[RagTopTA]

I just wonder if Proto has any of the old records anywhere..

 

[Smokeshow69]

Scored a few more wrenches to fill a few more spots in the proto la tool board! I got another from d42 and I got 3 more from montanafordman! Both guys are stand up guys and did not want payment and just want a few trades in the future. I am tasked with finding a pin handle for d42's nice set and will be getting montanafordman a few wrenches for his awesome plomb tool boards



If any body else has extras I have trades, etc.
I also picked up this beauty from offer up now that you can have items shipped




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[twertsy]

The Vannatta website does list several of the markings associated with various Plomb contracts but other than the WF inventory, they did not list known tools of the time that were part of these contracts. Plombob's old site touched on these a bit more and he had the only Ranger A.T. listing that I've seen. His site is no longer accessible, I think Twertsy was talking to Plombob about adding his data to Tool Archives.

Yes, I have the CD with his site, and now own the domain..........just gotta find the time!!

 

[DD T/A]

Are you going to keep his site up, or integrate the data with yours?

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I picked up an early Proto N-38 ratchet yesterday. Plain steel and unfinished handle (no knurling). I took it apart to service it and the inside if very crudely finished as well. Very industrial feeling.

I forgot to comment on this the other day, but your posting in the ratchets thread reminded me.

I wasn't aware of a Proto ratchet with an N-38 model number. Assuming that's a 1/2-inch drive rat, what's most interesting to me about the ratchet is the model number. It correlates exactly to the wartime US Army Air Corps Plomb WF-38 model number, and the post-war Proto WF-38 model number, with a different prefix. Akin to the way some wartime P&C tools (DBE wrenches, drive tools) with an N- series model numbering scheme correlate exactly to their WF- series model number counterparts, but with an N- prefix. We know that P&C made WF-series tools, and, that they had their own contract with the US Army Air Corps. We don't know if the P&C tools with WF- series model numbers were made under that contract, or if they were made for the Plomb contracts, and we don’t know who the N- series tools were made for. More on that discussion in the P&C thread, starting somewhere around page 19.

The big difference here is that the P&C N- series tools were wartime production, whereas your ratchet, like its apparent cousin, the Proto WF-38 ratchet, is clearly post-war, and post-Plvmb. Not that we even have a definitive explanation yet for the Proto WF- series drive tools that show up, but this Proto N-38 seems to be separate production, in the same way that the P&C N- series tools were separate production.

Does anyone know if there is a whole set of Proto 1/2-inch drive tools and sockets out there with N- series model numbers matching the Plomb wartime WF- series numbers? Or, like the Proto WF- tools, are the Proto N- marked tools limited to a few ratchets.

 

[DD T/A]

Could Proto WF series tools be maybe from a Korean war contract?

 

[Private Lugnutz]

That's one of the prevailing thoughts. Based on examples, the line appears to be limited to 1/2- and 3/8-inch drive ratchets, though. I think there might be some extensions out there, too, implying larger sets, but I've never seen any other handles or sockets. No midget drive, no DBEs, etc. Also a little strange that the US Army Air Corps' Wright Field, which gave the "WF" tools their model number prefix, was defunct in 1947, becoming part of the US Air Force's Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. But yeah.

 

[d42jeep]

My guess would be that they continued to use the WF part numbers because they were familiar numbers and weren’t worried about the fact that Wright Field was no more. I assumed that the N numbers were meant for the Navy. Do we have any information that suggests otherwise?
Found three little Proto wrenches today, two with the R in a circle and one without.
-Don

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Yeah, I agree, and have said before that it may have just been a legacy thing. Jury out on N numbers, in my opinion, but you can revisit on P&C thread. Pg 19 or so.

 

[oldmantaylor]

Here's one I thought was a little unusual. It has the Firestone handle without the logo, and it looks like it was always copper. One side doesn't look like it, but it's just the lighting of the picture.

 

[Username already in use]

I wasn't aware of a Proto ratchet with an N-38 model number. Assuming that's a 1/2-inch drive rat, what's most interesting to me about the ratchet is the model number. It correlates exactly to the wartime US Army Air Corps Plomb WF-38 model number, and the post-war Proto WF-38 model number, with a different prefix.

Correct, the N-38 is a 1/2" drive. Here's a pic next to the Proto WF-38 that I have.

 

[Username already in use]

Here's one I thought was a little unusual.

That Proto WF-21 ratchet is nice!

 

[RubiconJK]

Does anyone know if there is a whole set of Proto 1/2-inch drive tools and sockets out there with N- series model numbers matching the Plomb wartime WF- series numbers? Or, like the Proto WF- tools, are the Proto N- marked tools limited to a few ratchets.

I've never seen or found a "N" series, and so can't answer, but given the seeming rarity of just the known ratchets I'd lean toward your thought of them being limited to a few ratchets.

Here's one I thought was a little unusual. It has the Firestone handle without the logo, and it looks like it was always copper. One side doesn't look like it, but it's just the lighting of the picture.

Jim, seems like some of us had a visit about these copper looking tools once before. I've seen this before and observed that the copper was actually the undercoat which was showing through after years of wear. I don't know if that is the case with your example, but just food for thought.

 

[RubiconJK]

Yes, I have the CD with his site, and now own the domain..........just gotta find the time!!

Great news!

 

[oldmantaylor]

I've never seen or found a "N" series, and so can't answer, but given the seeming rarity of just the known ratchets I'd lean toward your thought of them being limited to a few ratchets.



Jim, seems like some of us had a visit about these copper looking tools once before. I've seen this before and observed that the copper was actually the undercoat which was showing through after years of wear. I don't know if that is the case with your example, but just food for thought.

I thought so as well, but it is so uniform it's hard to believe it is from wear. Maybe someone stripped off the plating, but you'd still think there would be some evidence.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Anyone know anything about these square shank sockets? All labeled plomb. Seems to be some question as to the box as well, not sure if it came with it.

 

[twertsy]

Are you going to keep his site up, or integrate the data with yours?

I'm going to host it as it was, not integrate.

 

[tym]

Anyone know anything about these square shank sockets? All labeled plomb. Seems to be some question as to the box as well, not sure if it came with it.

That box looks homebrew to me.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Bear in mind these are from 1927, who knows what sort of box they came in.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I'm with tym on the box. The owner used the same stud-head screws to attached his initials that he used to build the corner supports. And that non-swiveling handle is a give-away, too. But I did glance through some of the earliest catalogs before rushing to judgement. Nothing like this is shown. There was an iron tote and the early 1/2-inch socket set came in a steel attache type case with a leather handle. All these pieces are shown in the early catalogs, by the way. The drive tools, the Ford main bearing square box wrench, and what I am assuming are early stud pullers? Go to Tool Archives. 1925 or 1928 catalogs. You'll have fun.