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Show us your VFD conversions/installations

whateg01

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Looks like there are Arduino rs485 shields available, so the data to actually read hz out of the vfd should be there too. Maybe not on cheaper vfds but at least on good models, it should be. Not as easy as just measuring a frequency out of it but maybe not bad. Should probably be able to control it that way too
 
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Ainsley

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I am building a control box to put on the head of my Newport knee mill. Going to put the speed control knob in the middle of the hub on the switch lever, similar to my Servo power feed. I am in the air about the need, but I have been considering putting together an arduino circuit to take rpm from the VFD and display it.

Dave

I just used one of these and installed a small magnet in the pully on my drill press
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LXQ9YQ0/?tag=atomicindus08-20
 

Ainsley

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Can you post some pics of the install? Especially at the business end (magnet and sensor).

Mike

Thanks for the interest. This is all I have at the moment, i'll try and snap one this weekend while i'm in the shop

8A35D076-9E91-4E57-A15C-14A09DD98348_zpsmxmbapea.jpg
 

like2wheel

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Guys, I’m sorry I didn’t look through all 780 posts on this thread first, but I’m new to VFD’s and, to be honest, don’t really care to get super-acquainted with them. I’m just trying to run a 200V - 3PH - 5HP Ingersoll Rand compressor motor on single phase power and wondered if this unit:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/274265284519

Would run it? It looks like it would, but like I said I’m new to VFD’s...

Consider the alternative I have set up: a single phase 5HP motor, adaptor plate (since new motor is 56HZ frame and old is 184T) and pulley (old motor 1-1/8” shaft/new motor 7/8”) and magnetic starter... I’m in for about $300-325 that route...

Anyone care to weigh in?

And THANKS ahead of time!


Sent from my iPhone using The Garage Journal mobile app


The GT version of that VFD is actually rated for compressor use.
I've had one on a 200v 3ph 5hp Quincy since fall & so far very happy
 

mikeinri

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Thanks for following up. That magnet sticking out doesn't cause wobble, especially at high speeds?

Mike
 

byoungblood

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I picked up a Powermatic 1150 with variable speed reeves drive last month. Everything on it works well, the bearings in the motor are just rather noisy and I'm looking over replacement options.

Right now, I have a 1725 rpm single phase motor, which gives me a low speed of 475 rpm on the quill. If I drop down to a 1100 rpm motor, my low speed will be 330 rpm. I would like to slow it down even further to around 200 rpm, via a VFD and 3 phase motor.

I am assuming that the better option would be to start with the 1100 rpm motor and VFD? From the reading I've been doing today, it looks like it is more desirable to overclock the motor to make up for higher speed than to run a faster motor at a slower speed. Correct?
 

timgunn1962

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That's usually the case.

It can get a bit more complicated if you are stuck with using the original motor frame size because going to a higher pole count tends to mean going for a lower power output. If you can get the same power output in the 6-pole motor as you have in the 4-pole, that'll be the way to go.

If not, you'll need to look at the torque available and decide based on that.

If you can, use a Sensorless Vector drive. These are usually able to run motors better at lower frequencies (below about 10 Hz) than the older-technology V/Hz drives.
 
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u3b3rg33k

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I have a quick question for you guys - I've got a 120V input VFD (240V output, voltage doubler model), and as soon as I start the drive, it trips my class A GFCI outlet. Is there a workaround that doesn't involve disconnecting the internal ground or removing the GFCI from the system?

I know that drives have leakage current, and I've made an effort to use short cables.

I suppose a QO120EPD could theoretically work.
 

whateg01

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I have a quick question for you guys - I've got a 120V input VFD (240V output, voltage doubler model), and as soon as I start the drive, it trips my class A GFCI outlet. Is there a workaround that doesn't involve disconnecting the internal ground or removing the GFCI from the system?

I know that drives have leakage current, and I've made an effort to use short cables.

I suppose a QO120EPD could theoretically work.

I have a friend who was never able to solve this and finally connected that machine to a non-GFCI circuit. I've never figured out the reason, but it must have something to do with the way the input is wired to get double the voltage. Maybe you'll have better luck.

Dave
 

u3b3rg33k

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It'll be fun I'm sure. it works just fine on a non-GFCI outlet. I'll see if I can determine the leakage current and see if it falls within the limits of one of the other class units.

edit/update:
my multimeter says 6-8mA of leakage current when the IGBTs start switching.
 
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laser3kw

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I have a quick question for you guys - I've got a 120V input VFD (240V output, voltage doubler model), and as soon as I start the drive, it trips my class A GFCI outlet. Is there a workaround that doesn't involve disconnecting the internal ground or removing the GFCI from the system?

I know that drives have leakage current, and I've made an effort to use short cables.

I suppose a QO120EPD could theoretically work.
Are you sure you have the true 120v "line" and "neutural" on the correct R/S/T terminal as required by the manual? Also a PE/ ground on chassie?
 

u3b3rg33k

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Are you sure you have the true 120v "line" and "neutural" on the correct R/S/T terminal as required by the manual? Also a PE/ ground on chassie?

wired L1/Hot (black), L2/N (white), green to ground lug/frame. checked 0V between "L2" and ground (not wired backwards).
drive is an Invertek ODE-3-210058-104B.

I don't know where my ARRL handbook is, so I went to the next best source, youtube:

I'll play around with some chokes and see if I can make a difference. they're cheap and it seems low risk. given it's 6-8mA of current, a type C GFI breaker would allow me to keep GFI protection and "ignore" the problem, but I'd rather have the flexibility to use any outlet rather than install something that's technically (but arguably still safe enough) wrong.
 
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u3b3rg33k

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will it trip if you set the acceleration ramp to a real long time (10 seconds). Maybe it is inrush?

plugged into the GFI it trips the outlet within 2 seconds of starting the motor, even with the motor speed set at 0.6Hz, the circuit breaker itself doesn't trip. I think i have the ramp set to 5 seconds currently.

if I run the drive output without the motor connected it doesn't trip, but this doesn't surprise me.

plugged into an old outlet it will run just fine (old 15A lighting circuit with one outlet on it). doing this and measuring grounding conductor current I see a stable 6-8mA, even as I accelerate the motor.

I see a nice big inrush when I close the local disconnect on the drive as is charges the capacitor bank, but that doesn't trip the GFI. DC bus sits around 340V (seems about right for 120V power).
 
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laser3kw

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I like the choke (or maybe ferrite bead?) idea. I think you are on the right path with leakage currents developed by the nature of the vfd. Keep us posted, I am intrigued on what will be the solution.
 

u3b3rg33k

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I like the choke (or maybe ferrite bead?) idea. I think you are on the right path with leakage currents developed by the nature of the vfd. Keep us posted, I am intrigued on what will be the solution.

I will. I ordered some of the beads/cores and am waiting for them to arrive. who knows how long that'll take given the current situation.

hopefully this is nothing more than a refresher on the LC course I've since forgotten from back when I was planning on being an EE...
 

u3b3rg33k

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ok more data. max acceleration kW output per the drive: 1kW, 5 second accel time, peak 200mA leakage, drops to near zero once it's at speed (0.35kW to maintain per drive), so it appears to be related to load. that's more than I thought I'd have to deal with. I'm measuring with a cheap meter so who knows how accurate it is, but it would seem to rule out an EPD breaker without other filtering.
 
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u3b3rg33k

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I'm not the only one with this issue:
The residual currents generated by some lights can be of sufficient magnitude to trip a GFCI without the aid of transient leakage currents. For instance, the harmonics drawn by non-pfc HMI ballasts can be a large source of residual current. If a HMI ballast is not power factor corrected it draws a harmonically distorted current waveform. In addition to snubbing the switching noise of transistors to ground, an RF filter will also snub the high frequency harmonics drawn by the ballast - significantly increasing the residual current generated by the light. For instance, some non-power factor corrected 1200W HMI ballasts will draw 1.15mA as soon as you throw its breaker to power it up, and an additional 15.32 mA after you strike the light, for a total residual current of 16.47 mA (which is why these lights are guaranteed to trip inexpensive hardware store style GFCIs and wall receptacle GFCIs.)

The reason these lights generate such high residual current is that non-power factor corrected ballasts are a type of Switch Mode Power Supply (see simplified schematic below) that first converts the AC waveform of the supply to DC current by means of smoothing capacitors. It then employs IGBTs to switch the DC to a square waveform used to ignite and maintain an arc in the lamp (the purpose of the square waveform is to eliminate flicker appearing on the exposed film.)


A simplified schematic of a non-pfc electronic HMI ballast (Courtesy of Harry Box)

Since its smoothing capacitors only draw current when they charge at the peak of the rectified voltage, the ballast draws a pulsed current consisting of abrupt peaks that are rich in harmonics (see waveform and corresponding FFT reading below.)


The waveform and FFT of current drawn by a 1200W non-pfc electronic HMI ballast

The RF filter snubs the higher frequency harmonics drawn by the ballast to earth, contributing to the additional 15.32mA of residual current measured. In the waveform and FFT of the ballast's residual current (below) one can see the small amount of mains current inadvertently passed by the filter as well as the harmonic currents it is designed to pass to ground.


The waveform and FFT of the residual current generated by a 1200W non-pfc electronic HMI ballast

These high frequency leakage currents will cause a hardware store type GFCI to nuisance trip because they do not return via the neutral conductor and so cause the GFCI to see a difference between the current leaving on the hot line and the current returning on the neutral line. It is a nuisance because they in fact pose no hazard.

These high frequency leakage currents do not pose a hazard because, not only are they safely confined to the EGC, but they are also the result of the system capacitance (the harmonic currents are drawn by the charging of the ballast's smoothing capacitors.) The human body is a resistive load and according to Ohm's Law (I=V/R) shock current (I) is a function of voltage (V) and resistance (R) only. In this case it is not the residual current that causes a shock, but the current generated by the resistive value of the individual making contact with the potential to ground. Since the residual currents do not increase the voltage in the fault circuit there is no increase in shock hazard even though their accumulation on the EGC can cause nuisance tripping of hardware store type GFCIs.

To avoid GFCIs that have been sensitized by residual currents from nuisance tripping as a result of transient conditions that are not of a sufficient duration to pose a hazard, in 2003 UL published a new standard (UL 943) for GFCIs designed to prevent nuisance tripping. The new standard allowed GFCIs to incorporate high frequency filters and trip on an "Inverse Time Curve." Attenuated by a filter, residual currents don't sensitize GFCIs and so pose less of a problem. An inverse time trip curve permits transient conditions that are sufficiently short in duration so as not to pose a hazard while keeping current through the body to safe levels. To assure the latter, UL943 requires that as fault current increases the maximum allowable time to open a circuit and interrupt power decreases, with an almost instantaneous response time required (no more than 20ms) if the fault current is greater than 300 mA compared to 5.59 seconds at 6 mA. In other words, the higher the current, the faster the GFCI must trip. The advantage of UL943's inverse trip curve is that it minimizes nuisance tripping from transient conditions while providing protection from shock currents generated by an individual coming into contact with ground potential.
http://www.screenlightandgrip.com/html/emailnewsletter_generators.html

so apparently UL 943 allows for "better" GFCIs, so it may be worth hunting one down - how to determine if it's "smarter" is a question in itself.
 
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tarmy

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I need some advice/recommendations...

I have a belt grinder with a good Leeson single phase motor. I want to convert my setup to VFD and am not up to speed on 3 phase motors.

I know I need a new motor...and controller. I am looking for recommendations on the new 3 phase motor. I am planning on getting a KB Electronic 9520 VFD controller.

Current setup...

63A9C649-6108-41B3-9F9F-C53591B66300.jpg

35AB8F09-3E84-475E-BA90-708A11C6A0AB.jpg

Thanks
 

whateg01

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I need some advice/recommendations...

I have a belt grinder with a good Leeson single phase motor. I want to convert my setup to VFD and am not up to speed on 3 phase motors.

I know I need a new motor...and controller. I am looking for recommendations on the new 3 phase motor. I am planning on getting a KB Electronic 9520 VFD controller.

...

Thanks

Not saying you can't go this route, but I generally start with the motor and its characteristics I am after. Then get a VFD that supports that motor. For example, what horsepower? How many poles? How does it handle being run at frequencies other than its rating?

Dave
 

Fallon

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tarmy

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Does your grinder work on single phase, just curious why you want to convert to three phase?


It works fine on single phase...but this is GJ...and we need to upgrade, spend copious amounts of money and fix things that do not need fixing...

That...and

Speed control...

I know very little about three phase...and this is part of learning as well. I tend to buy good tools...so really need advice on a decent to good 3 phase, 2 to 3 hp motor.

Thanks.
 

whateg01

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Baldor and Leeson are good, quality brands. This is what I buy.

I've always said, you can't go wrong with buying Baldor. I've not had any experience with the ABB labeled motors, though. I bought some of the equipment from the Baldor plant that closed in Arkansas. I'm not sure where they are building motors now.

Dave
 

u3b3rg33k

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The motors I've been using are Marathon (Regal) Black Max. the ones I have say made in Wisconsin on them.

Update on my VFD/GFCI fun. I filtered the inlet cord with 5 turns on an inductor at the plug end and 4 turns at the drive end (power supply), and I have 0.01-0.02mA of measureable grounding conductor (green wire) leakage, still trips out the GFCI as soon as the motor starts up. I think it's scope time.
 

laser3kw

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The motors I've been using are Marathon (Regal) Black Max. the ones I have say made in Wisconsin on them.

Update on my VFD/GFCI fun. I filtered the inlet cord with 5 turns on an inductor at the plug end and 4 turns at the drive end (power supply), and I have 0.01-0.02mA of measureable grounding conductor (green wire) leakage, still trips out the GFCI as soon as the motor starts up. I think it's scope time.

Just as a test, have you tried running the drive outputting to the motor with the VFD supply side PE/earth wire disconnected? Of course never run it this way permanently as it is unsafe - this is only a test,
 

u3b3rg33k

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Just as a test, have you tried running the drive outputting to the motor with the VFD supply side PE/earth wire disconnected? Of course never run it this way permanently as it is unsafe - this is only a test,

Not yet but I can give it a shot.

another option i have is to use "VFD"/screened cable (or maybe a metallic whip for testing), right now I'm using SOOW cord under 10' length.
 

manwithtools

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I have a quick question for you guys - I've got a 120V input VFD (240V output, voltage doubler model), and as soon as I start the drive, it trips my class A GFCI outlet. Is there a workaround that doesn't involve disconnecting the internal ground or removing the GFCI from the system?

I know that drives have leakage current, and I've made an effort to use short cables.

I suppose a QO120EPD could theoretically work.
You are on a fools errand. I'd bet you will never get that drive to work on a GFCI. For the life of me, I would not even try. This is from someone in the industry that has installed thousands of VFDs.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using The Garage Journal mobile app
 

u3b3rg33k

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You are on a fools errand. I'd bet you will never get that drive to work on a GFCI. For the life of me, I would not even try. This is from someone in the industry that has installed thousands of VFDs.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using The Garage Journal mobile app

You may be right. in fact I suspect you are. assuming that is the case, there are a few workarounds that will/may work and cost aside (because it is obscene), I'd appreciate your feedback.

1: use a 2 wire cord like you'd find on most double insulated equipment. GFCI is happy with this, not sure about the vfd/motor.
2: isolation transformer (grounded)
3: PFC 12V power supply + inverter to feed VFD (grounded)

#1 definitely works, #2 may work, #3 i can't see why it wouldn't work.

goals would be to minimize risk to health and safety, and not destroy my equipment.
 

slodat

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The GCFI is not going to see a phase to ground fault on the 3 phase side of things. I agree about the fools errand assessment. My background is protective relaying. I do fault analysis, simulation and design for a living.
 

manwithtools

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You may be right. in fact I suspect you are. assuming that is the case, there are a few workarounds that will/may work and cost aside (because it is obscene), I'd appreciate your feedback.

1: use a 2 wire cord like you'd find on most double insulated equipment. GFCI is happy with this, not sure about the vfd/motor.
2: isolation transformer (grounded)
3: PFC 12V power supply + inverter to feed VFD (grounded)

#1 definitely works, #2 may work, #3 i can't see why it wouldn't work.

goals would be to minimize risk to health and safety, and not destroy my equipment.

Just wire it to a non GFCI circuit. There are millions of VFD's at use in industry that are protected by fuses and/or circuit breakers only. They work for thousands of hours and don't electrocute anyone and they are operating at voltages far higher than your setup.

I controlled my pool motor with a single phase input (240 volt) VFD without GFCI protection for 15 years and never had an issue. Follow proper wiring techniques and there is no risk. For decades we hand non GFCI protected circuits in garages, basements, etc and people did not die from them unless they did stupid things.

The minimizing risk and not destroying equipment is perfectly achievable without a GFCI in the mix. Your other ideas are yours to pursue, but I'm not able to see the usefulness of any of them.
 

u3b3rg33k

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Just as a test, have you tried running the drive outputting to the motor with the VFD supply side PE/earth wire disconnected? Of course never run it this way permanently as it is unsafe - this is only a test,

motor ground disconnected at the VFD - this works and does not trip the gfci. i see approx 60V RMS between the two grounds unrelated to output voltage/frequency, and a <1 ma AC current when on the mA scale. The GFCI does not trip when ground current can return through the meter.

Just wire it to a non GFCI circuit. There are millions of VFD's at use in industry that are protected by fuses and/or circuit breakers only. They work for thousands of hours and don't electrocute anyone and they are operating at voltages far higher than your setup.

I controlled my pool motor with a single phase input (240 volt) VFD without GFCI protection for 15 years and never had an issue. Follow proper wiring techniques and there is no risk. For decades we hand non GFCI protected circuits in garages, basements, etc and people did not die from them unless they did stupid things.

The minimizing risk and not destroying equipment is perfectly achievable without a GFCI in the mix. Your other ideas are yours to pursue, but I'm not able to see the usefulness of any of them.

That's the easy solution, but it means I need one available should I move the equipment, which impacts the convenience of having it corded.
 
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laser3kw

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Can anyone tell me what the best way to put a VFD on a 2HP 3ph Bridgeport with Prototrak CNC control, if that matters. Is 110 1ph input OK or do I need 220? Thanks!

I would opt for 240v (single phase) input. Do some checking first when using a VFD as a three phase converter. VFD's do not put out a true sine wave which may reek havoc with a computer based system like a CNC and servo based controls. :headscrat
Maybe someone who has done it can chime in.:thumbup:
 
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