littlebean
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2018
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SwissMetric -that's great, thanks
Tools from the old world
- Thread starter Monte
- Start date
JSCraftsman
Well-known member
I believe that your nice Elora 870-1-U has a date code under the selector cutout. It appears to be either a 75 or 76 date code? I have one of these guys as well. On mine you can clearly make out the "7", but the second number has been smudged while stamping, so it's unclear whether it's a "3" or less likely a "9"? More likely it is a 73 code. Anyway, just thought I'd put in my input. Thanks and Happy New Year!I just thought I would compare my different 3/8 drive ratchets:
The standard Hazet 8816P is probably the one I reach for most often. It's built like a tank but the drag resistance is the highest of the bunch. I think it's just time for some lubrication...
The Hazet 8816F is the fine tooth version and is a huge contrast to the standard one. The drag resistance is the least of all in this group except the Koken. It has a very precise feeling mechanism. The design is unusual looking, but I really like it. Inside the mechanism is similar to a Facom. Like the other Facom based designs, it tends to be a bit tall and that can sometimes be a factor in tight spaces.
This is an older versoin of the 8816F from the 1980's. It's much longer but not as smooth as the later one, but it is still very nice. The reversing knob on the top sometimes gets unintentionally switched, especially when you're using your palm.
Here is the famous Facom. I heard so much about it that I just had to try one. It has the free-spinning palm control disc on the top so it won't switch in your palm. The mechanism is very fine, almost as good as the later fine tooth Hazet. The ratchet is signifigantly shorter than the others in the group. That could be an asset in some situations, but is a disadvantage in others. They do make a long version, though. There is no COO on the tool, nor was there any on the packaging it came in. But my friend inside Facom Taiwan told me that these are made by USAG in Italy.
Another famous ratchet, the fabled Snap-On F80. It won't disappoint you in any way. It's so so nice. It's the prima donna of the group and it knows it.
This is an older Snap-On F=71B ratchet with a date code from the year 1949. I actually like the looks of it better than the contemporary one. It still works just fine. Very smooth.
This Elora 870-1-U probably dates to the 1960's or 70's. The mechanism inside is pretty similar to a Snap-On. Its mechanism was very worn and sloppy so I replaced the pawl with one from a modern Elora. The newer gear wheel wouldn't fit because the top part was a larger diameter. I thought about machining it to accept the new gear wheel but decided against it. I wanted to preserve its originality. So now it's half rebuilt. Its action is acceptable now.
This is really a clone of a Belzer. Which in turn was heavily influenced by Snap-On designs.
Old Belzer socket set for sale on ebay.uk
This is the undisputed champion of smoothness and low drag resistance. The mind-boggling Koken 3753P. Its smoothness is almost supernatural. You can hardly hear it. Nothing else even comes close. I don't think that it is particularly good looking, but it definitely does the business!
The mechanism inside is pretty much the same as those of Plomb/Proto which of course are also famous for smoothness.
-JSAttachments
pizza
Well-known member
not sure if already posted, but there's a new bottle opener in town
looks like the zyklop mini bit ratchet's handle except it has a hole in it.
part of the 2024 advent calendar (~65usd). i want it, but the bottle opener is the only part that interests me, so it's not worth it.
looks like the zyklop mini bit ratchet's handle except it has a hole in it.
part of the 2024 advent calendar (~65usd). i want it, but the bottle opener is the only part that interests me, so it's not worth it.
not sure if already posted, but there's a new bottle opener in town
looks like the zyklop mini bit ratchet's handle except it has a hole in it.
part of the 2024 advent calendar (~65usd). i want it, but the bottle opener is the only part that interests me, so it's not worth it.
I like that- but it does look a bit short. I'd assume they'll add it to their regular product line soon since they made the tooling for it.
zip ties
I don't think I've seen these here before but saw them somewhere and figured I'd try one. Fiberglass handle with a very "grippy" rubber grip that's great. It's listed as a 28 oz, but it the head weight with the head on a scale and the handle horizontal is 33 oz, which is fine.
LNKMK8
Well-known member
A few I came across last month... I believe the former owner was an aviation mechanic based on the other tools and Cessna parts I found at the estate.
Bahco Flex End Box Wrench - Made in Sweden
Belzer-Streamline Open End Wrench - Made in Germany
Lauravia Universal Extension with Cross Bar - Made in France?
Bahco Flex End Box Wrench - Made in Sweden
Belzer-Streamline Open End Wrench - Made in Germany
Lauravia Universal Extension with Cross Bar - Made in France?
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honcho
Well-known member
I had never heard of Lauravia tools prior to this and, upon searching, learned that they joined with SAM tools of France in 1970. The SAM tools website said Lauravia had a large line of automotive and aviation tools.
Dave455
Well-known member
There is a bit about Lauravia on the Facom thread.
The tools are generally high quality, but they obviously made a lot of specialist stuff.
The French military used to buy a lot. The British government too.
JSCraftsman
Well-known member
Hello again all! I finally got my hands on an old German made Belzer No. 7750 rat today, that dates all the way back to the 1960's. I gotta tell ya, these German made pieces have really peaked my interest recently. I really wanted to see just how close these were to Snap-On's F-71. So I tore into it, and my suspicions were confirmed. It not only does share component compatibility with the Snap-On F-71 model, it's practically it's clone as well! Just out of curiosity, to test my theory I installed every component, except for the bushing, but the gear, pawl & coverplate, all drop in perfectly into the 7750 head and work exactly just like an F-71 would. The parts dimensions are identical! Makes sense beings the two rats are practically twins from another mother...haha! Besides some altered cosmetic differences, and a slightly heavier overall profile on the 7750, you would think they were related! The 7750 has seen a good amount of use, so has this F-71. The 7750 parts are worn, and have chipped teeth, both on the wheel and on the pawl. So much that it does skip at a couple places. I am considering rebuilding the 7750 with a repair kit, problem is there really aren't a whole lot of choices out there when it comes to replacement parts for this 7750. I'm going to experiment with the Stahlwille 435 kit. I think the parts from that rat will work? Here is a few photos of the two side by side. You can obviously see the cosmetic similarities they share with each other. The 4th photo is a internal comparison of the two, even the internals really do look alike. Thanks and enjoy! -JS
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Great comparison pics. And I thought only HF made carbon copies
Ok, yeah, Belzer did go far out on a limb and add an extra machined cut on the handle .
Qualitytools
Well-known member
I have the Prevost couplers and Love them, enjoy!
SwissMetric
Well-known member
You're welcome. Sorry for my late reply.
@Outahere:
Didn't know that Felco was known in th U.S.
It's a small Swiss company, as gardening-ignorant I only know that spare parts are sold in many specialized stores here.
With some basic maintenance they last decades. A zillion times better than consumer products like Wolf or Gardena, always found those two totally overrated.
@JSCraftsman:
The Belzer ratchet mechanism looks surprisingly close to the Stahlwille.
That said, some quite old Stahlwille 512 (1/2") versions require the diameter of the hole for the lever to be increased. I don't remember exactly the details and I'm not sure if it applies to the 415 (3/8").
In the USA Felco is well known among gardening enthusiasts and professional landscapers and plant nursery employees. I have never seen them at big box stores such as Walmart. Walmart sells Fiskars gardening tools in their stores (at 1/3 the price of Felco). Felco spare parts are readily available online from Felco North America and other online sources.
Gebirgekind
Well-known member
The Felco C7 cable cutter is also well-loved in the bike mechanic community, used in just about every decent shop in the country.
SwissMetric
Well-known member
Thanks for your replies. I didn't know that about Felco, here their main products are very common and sold in many stores, from small local shops to garden centers and DIY stores.
Also I'm totally ignorant when it comes to anything related to gardening and landscaping, if I could I'd like a reinforced concrete garden, totally fireproof and low maintenance costs.
Here common spare parts like blades and springs are sold in self-service retail blisters.
A typical example of expensive tools which cost less over their lifetime (TCO for those who like abbreviations) because they last very long and spare parts are easily available.
Also I'm totally ignorant when it comes to anything related to gardening and landscaping, if I could I'd like a reinforced concrete garden, totally fireproof and low maintenance costs.
Here common spare parts like blades and springs are sold in self-service retail blisters.
A typical example of expensive tools which cost less over their lifetime (TCO for those who like abbreviations) because they last very long and spare parts are easily available.
KnurledNut
Well-known member
If shopping for Felco, be aware counterfeits are out there and are becoming more abundant, enough so that the company has a bulletin on their website about it.
https://realfelco.com/
https://realfelco.com/
SwissMetric
Well-known member
I didn't know though counterfeits are becoming more and more popular for various items including tools and also drugs. Manufacturers could laser-engrave unique random codes and allow them to be checked online. That would already help. Hologram labels can be falsified, it's mostly a question of money.
neophyte
Well-known member
Felco is basically the “industry standard” for high end garden loppers and pruners.
Most professional garden centers and suppliers in the USA carry felco, and usually also the replacement parts.
Years ago, high end boutique garden supply center Smith & Hawken carried some of the Felco products, and other boutique hardware gardening suppliers started carrying the brand as well.
neophyte
Well-known member
Here is one of the better “local” hardware stores in Philadelphia that carries Felco.Thanks for your replies. I didn't know that about Felco, here their main products are very common and sold in many stores, from small local shops to garden centers and DIY stores.
Also I'm totally ignorant when it comes to anything related to gardening and landscaping, if I could I'd like a reinforced concrete garden, totally fireproof and low maintenance costs.
Here common spare parts like blades and springs are sold in self-service retail blisters.
A typical example of expensive tools which cost less over their lifetime (TCO for those who like abbreviations) because they last very long and spare parts are easily available.
FELCO - Garden - Kilian Hardware
kilianhardware.com
I don’t know how much of the small Felco parts they keep, but when I’ve asked for screws or replacement blades, etc., they’ve usually been able to find them in a box or drawer behind the counter.
Most hardware stores just carry cheaper brands, but this one is in an upper class area were people actually have yards and shrubbery around their houses, and it’s near other park areas and houses with lands around the houses.
Dave455
Well-known member
Felco “wire rope” cutters are highly regarded in the U.K.
You will find them in industrial settings, and also the aviation world.
KnurledNut
Well-known member
My Felco bypass pruning shears have held up really well with use, but like anything that cuts, eventually require sharpening.
I have a couple models from Stihl that are made in Japan and can hold their own, especially the orange handled PP10. I like the textured grip over the smooth Felco grip and the easy to operate lock. The PP40 has ergo hard handles and steel blades, no lamination. They are lightweight but strong and the thin profile can advantageous cutting close to forks.
For heavy duty work, the Cutco 1527 is extremely stout. Where these others are using thin steel blades on diecast aluminum handles, Cutco uses a thick one piece 4116 high carbon german stainless steel for the entire tool. They are weighty, but these are the ones I grab when cutting stubborn vegetation. They just feel unbreakable. These also have grippy textured handles, a unique grayish purple.
The Cutco anvil shears are ratcheting and lighter duty, but have less pull on fragile plants.
As always, its good to have a variety of tools for different applications.
Regarding the wire rope cutters, I have the Felco C7’s and they are definitely the standard by which all others are judged, but I also have a pair from TOP Japan that have been just as good. Knipex makes some nice ones too, as well as a Bowden cable cutter that is top notch, no pun intended.
I have a couple models from Stihl that are made in Japan and can hold their own, especially the orange handled PP10. I like the textured grip over the smooth Felco grip and the easy to operate lock. The PP40 has ergo hard handles and steel blades, no lamination. They are lightweight but strong and the thin profile can advantageous cutting close to forks.
For heavy duty work, the Cutco 1527 is extremely stout. Where these others are using thin steel blades on diecast aluminum handles, Cutco uses a thick one piece 4116 high carbon german stainless steel for the entire tool. They are weighty, but these are the ones I grab when cutting stubborn vegetation. They just feel unbreakable. These also have grippy textured handles, a unique grayish purple.
The Cutco anvil shears are ratcheting and lighter duty, but have less pull on fragile plants.
As always, its good to have a variety of tools for different applications.
Regarding the wire rope cutters, I have the Felco C7’s and they are definitely the standard by which all others are judged, but I also have a pair from TOP Japan that have been just as good. Knipex makes some nice ones too, as well as a Bowden cable cutter that is top notch, no pun intended.
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SwissMetric
Well-known member
It still sort of surprises me as there are lots of not that expensive tools made in the U.S.A., and Swiss made tools tend to be way more expensive Also there are only few manufacturers left like e.g. P. Baumann (PB), Gressel, Fraisa, DC, UMV (Vallorbe) or so. Fribosa died recently (2023?). No idea what happened to Reishauer (maybe I should google it).
Sadly the Swiss industry shrinks every year though interestingly many manufacturing jobs will never be replaced by AI.
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The 2nd wire cutter shown by Dave455 is quite common here.
Lots of Felco parts are listed with price here:
www.felco.com
Felco is one of those small Swiss companies well established in niche markets. I never contacted them but typically you could probaly end talking to a design engineer or some other expert if you've a really specific question. Usually there are no call-centers with some agent you can't even understand due to a thick foreign accent, with calls routed to another continent, especially for some French language call centers, for German you'll likely end somewhere in Eastern Europe.
Sadly the Swiss industry shrinks every year though interestingly many manufacturing jobs will never be replaced by AI.
Edited:
The 2nd wire cutter shown by Dave455 is quite common here.
Lots of Felco parts are listed with price here:
FELCO Switzerland | Swiss Precision. Made to Last. | Official Store
Official FELCO Switzerland website. Pruning shears, loppers and other cutting and gardening tools – Swiss quality and durability since 1945.
www.felco.com
Felco is one of those small Swiss companies well established in niche markets. I never contacted them but typically you could probaly end talking to a design engineer or some other expert if you've a really specific question. Usually there are no call-centers with some agent you can't even understand due to a thick foreign accent, with calls routed to another continent, especially for some French language call centers, for German you'll likely end somewhere in Eastern Europe.
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neophyte
Well-known member
Felco doesn’t cast their handles.
The handles are forged aluminum, and naybe put ghru a heat treatment, and I’ve used the Felco model 13 “hand and a half” pruners on tough vines that were easily over an inch, and the Felco’s went thru.
JSCraftsman
Well-known member
I did discover that the Stahlwille 435 (3/8") mechanism is indeed very similar to the Belzer 7750 mechanism. And as you mentioned regarding the larger hole on the Stahlwille, yes you are correct, the pawl receptical bore hole on the selector side is greatly larger on the Stahlwille vs the Belzer. So right away I could see that the Stahlwille pawl wasn't going to just drop right into the Belzer pawl cradle. Also, the Stahlwille's pawl is just slightly larger than the Belzer's bore, again just enough not to allow the pawl to drop in there. Now if I was completly nuts, and I didn't care about modifying the machining on Belzer head, I may remotely consider making the modifications on the Belzer. But I'm not going to do that! As for the Stahlwille's gear fitting into the Belzer's head, yup that would definitely work. The Stahlwille's 30 tooth gear thickness and diameter are practically identical to the Belzer's 30 tooth gear. But at the moment, unfortunately this 7750 is suffering from a stuck ball bearing, wedged inside the spring hole. Luckily there is still a spring under the bearing. The next day I get, I'm going to set up my drill press and extremely carefully drill out the bearing with a 3/32" carbide drill bit that I received today. I am going to go through the original hole at the top of the head which has the brass oil orfice, the hole which was originally used for drilling the spring hole. I was able to punch out the brass oil orfice, or just the body of the orfice, as the spring & ball in the orfice took a hike somewhere long ago, and never returned...haha. But the bit should go through the bearing like butter. I'm just waiting for a good warm day to do it, which who knows when that will be? Hopefully soon! -JS
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SwissMetric
Well-known member
Thanks for the feedback.
There were several Stahlwille 512 (the classic 1/2" ratchet) versions. Don't know exactly how many and when it was introduced, I'd guess in the 60's or maybe even 50's. Must try to find some historic catalogs. Would be nice to scan them but there could still be copyright issues.
A shame Stahlwille doesn't publish old catalogs as PDF.
For a short time the Swiss Stahlwille catalog was a traditionally bound classy book with hard covers. IIRC several early editions were mostly black on green paper (paperback). Sadly overall a huge amount of great tools were removed from the catalogs year after year and now mostly replaced by externally purchased COTS tools which are just rebranded and overpriced but not otherwise different.
There were several Stahlwille 512 (the classic 1/2" ratchet) versions. Don't know exactly how many and when it was introduced, I'd guess in the 60's or maybe even 50's. Must try to find some historic catalogs. Would be nice to scan them but there could still be copyright issues.
A shame Stahlwille doesn't publish old catalogs as PDF.
For a short time the Swiss Stahlwille catalog was a traditionally bound classy book with hard covers. IIRC several early editions were mostly black on green paper (paperback). Sadly overall a huge amount of great tools were removed from the catalogs year after year and now mostly replaced by externally purchased COTS tools which are just rebranded and overpriced but not otherwise different.
I own an older (over 25 years) Bosch cordless drill and an older corded Bosch jigsaw that were manufactured in Switzerland. Is there still a Bosch power tool factory in Switzerland? A year ago I bought Bosch's top of the line corded jigsaw, and it was manufactured in Hungary. Made-in-Switzerland jigsaw blades are very common in the USA.
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CGarage
Well-known member
The blades, along with disposable cutting tools for many other manufacturers, are made in Switzerland.
The power tools were made in Solothurn once upon a time, but Bosch wisely changed production country every few years to take advantage of changing tax and trade benefits, and labor costs.
I have not seen any power tools come out of Solothurn for 35+ years.
Vinny
Well-known member
Speaking of Bosch, I just bought the GWX15-50PBD angle grinder, and it was made in Germany.
SwissMetric
Well-known member
The Bosch power tools made in Switzerland were made by Scintilla AG in Solothurn (Bosch group) but that was a long time ago. The quality of the green "non professional" line was higher than the one of the current blue Professional line (which already existed at that time).
Bosch still manufactures saw blades (etc.) in St. Niklaus, a very small mountain village in the same valley as Zermatt.
See here, paste the WGS 84 coordinates
46.177132, 7.804517
or
46° 10′ 37.67″ N 7° 48′ 16.26″ E
map.geo.admin.ch
or the street address
Talstrasse 1 St. Niklaus
in the Search box.
You can also generate a PDF, zoom in/out, display aerial or detailed map views (Swisstopo is a federal Swiss office).
Some Bosch power tools are made in Germany, others in Eastern Europe, China, etc. The quality varies from awful **** to very good.
Some high end Bosch laser instruments are made in Switzerland by a supplier (Leica Geosystems (?), which includes former Wild Heerbrugg).
See also here:
www.bosch.ch
2200 employees is considered as major company, there aren't that many with over 2000 employees in Switzerland itself.
Bosch still manufactures saw blades (etc.) in St. Niklaus, a very small mountain village in the same valley as Zermatt.
See here, paste the WGS 84 coordinates
46.177132, 7.804517
or
46° 10′ 37.67″ N 7° 48′ 16.26″ E
Maps of Switzerland - Swiss Confederation - map.geo.admin.ch
or the street address
Talstrasse 1 St. Niklaus
in the Search box.
You can also generate a PDF, zoom in/out, display aerial or detailed map views (Swisstopo is a federal Swiss office).
Some Bosch power tools are made in Germany, others in Eastern Europe, China, etc. The quality varies from awful **** to very good.
Some high end Bosch laser instruments are made in Switzerland by a supplier (Leica Geosystems (?), which includes former Wild Heerbrugg).
See also here:
St. Niklaus
Discover the Bosch location in St. Niklaus. Learn more about the site, the benefits, and exciting career opportunities. #LikeABosch
www.bosch.ch
2200 employees is considered as major company, there aren't that many with over 2000 employees in Switzerland itself.
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Power tools manufacturing in Switzerland was stopped 2018.
Source:
Der Schwerpunkt liegt auf Elektrowerkzeugen
Der Schwerpunkt liegt auf Elektrowerkzeugen
www.scintilla.ch
SwissMetric
Well-known member
Never checked details but I'm surprised they made power tools until 2018, I expected that they gave it up way earlier.
In the 80's there was a strong competition between Metabo and Bosch, AFAIR the old Metabo jigsaws and corded drills were considered as somewhat better than Bosch, the main complaint being some poorly designed Röhm automatich chucks (the ones with the locking ring which easily ended jammed) although Röhm is probably the best known European chuck manufacturer, also for lathes.
Bosch tools range from awful **** to top. Some of their giveaway bit adatpers are among the worst I've ever used but OTOH SDS-plus and SDS-max drills are great, referring to the more advanced product lines. Some small cordless amateur tools are dreadful while some Professional line (blue) tools are very good.
What I regret is that Bosch took over Rexroth and also gave up pneumatics but that's another story. I sort of miss the good old Bosch CL 500 times... (a very robust 19" rack PLC).
In the 80's there was a strong competition between Metabo and Bosch, AFAIR the old Metabo jigsaws and corded drills were considered as somewhat better than Bosch, the main complaint being some poorly designed Röhm automatich chucks (the ones with the locking ring which easily ended jammed) although Röhm is probably the best known European chuck manufacturer, also for lathes.
Bosch tools range from awful **** to top. Some of their giveaway bit adatpers are among the worst I've ever used but OTOH SDS-plus and SDS-max drills are great, referring to the more advanced product lines. Some small cordless amateur tools are dreadful while some Professional line (blue) tools are very good.
What I regret is that Bosch took over Rexroth and also gave up pneumatics but that's another story. I sort of miss the good old Bosch CL 500 times... (a very robust 19" rack PLC).
Hello from the other side of the Alps (Slovenia)! In proper agricultural shops, Felco is also common here, as well as the German Löwe which is very similar in quality but I think far less known globally. I've recently been in the winelands region of South Africa and was surprised to see a lot of Felco. More than once I've seen hardware stores with big Felco signs. So I assume it is one of the bigger brands in wine regions of the world, apart from Europe probably also California, Australia and maybe even Chile. South Africa is relatively poor and I really did not expect it there...It still sort of surprises me as there are lots of not that expensive tools made in the U.S.A., and Swiss made tools tend to be way more expensive Also there are only few manufacturers left like e.g. P. Baumann (PB), Gressel, Fraisa, DC, UMV (Vallorbe) or so. Fribosa died recently (2023?). No idea what happened to Reishauer (maybe I should google it).
Sadly the Swiss industry shrinks every year though interestingly many manufacturing jobs will never be replaced by AI.
Edited:
The 2nd wire cutter shown by Dave455 is quite common here.
Lots of Felco parts are listed with price here:
FELCO Switzerland | Swiss Precision. Made to Last. | Official Store
Official FELCO Switzerland website. Pruning shears, loppers and other cutting and gardening tools – Swiss quality and durability since 1945.
Felco is one of those small Swiss companies well established in niche markets. I never contacted them but typically you could probaly end talking to a design engineer or some other expert if you've a really specific question. Usually there are no call-centers with some agent you can't even understand due to a thick foreign accent, with calls routed to another continent, especially for some French language call centers, for German you'll likely end somewhere in Eastern Europe.
Swiss companies do take a lot of pride in their work. Anything from PB Swiss I own is certainly made with extremely high quality control. Same with Victorinox and old Wagner. And we have a couple Schaublin milling machines and lathes at work which are always a pleasure to use. Wish there was still any company making sockets, ratchets and pliers from Switzerland too.
My SO has recently visited Basel for business (for Novartis). Seems all production and even research is now shrinking and being outsourced, and they're only keeping the administration in Switzerland. Novartis has some big production companies over here in Slovenia. I assume the issue is finding workers for production jobs?