Tools from the old world

[Outline]

I find all these rebranding companies very confusing. It seems there are so many of them, and I spend time trying to figure out what they're offering only to realize it's a rebranding company and they offer nothing.

I sell tools for a living and even for me it's very confusing sometimes! But the more rebranded tools you see, the easier it gets to spot them. And easier to categorize that particular 'brand'.

That's not the finish. That's a coat of paint they spray in to make it look the same inside and out when you first buy it. That coat of paint is pointless and the tools are chromed underneath. It's just not a polished chrome, which is good because polished chrome is the worst.

You're the first one to know exactly what I mean! But why paint them if you chromed them? No one from Gedore that I talked to can give me a clear answer on that one!

Doing it to make inside & outside the same is not the reason by the way. They would have told me that when I asked for the reason. Besides that: The difference between the paint and the plated finish sticks out like a swollen thumb.

I know that that paint finish is a turn-off for a big range of customers because of the cheaper feel. Apparently they started with that a few years ago when they changed the finisch/coating that they use.

What are you referring to when you say "crappy finish"?

If what I think is right and you are referring to the lack of chrome, I think you are definitely wrong.
I have a set of 1/2 inch metric sockets made by Gedore and the inside of the sockets didn't wipe off.
Maybe it can happen, but didn't happen to me yet.

I have read a lot of times complaints like that and I can't say that I agree.
In Europe, only the french (Facom) have this habbit of making very polished / chromed tools.
In Europe, when you see a low quality chinese tool, in about 90% percent of cases it's a chromed or polished tool.
Germans don't make tools like that because they have a pragmatic mentality.
They care more about functionality then looks.

I don't say that Facom or Snap On don't make great tools, but a non-chrome finish is not at all ugly.
It's a more industrial look and it's easier to grip with oil on your hands.
For example, my Gedore U-10 ratchet is not what you would call pretty, but using it is a great joy.

Chroming or finish does say NOTHING about the quality of a tool. There are a lot of threads on here that will tell you that. Also it's not polished/unpolished: The proces of getting a polished/unpolished finish is different. I't's not like that you can polish you Gedore and get the same finish as on a Snep-on.

And yes, the non-polished finish is more practical. And yes, Americas love their chrome.

What I am talking about is that the newer, lighter and more like-a-paint chrome finish of Gedore is less dureble than the old finish they used. Seen whole chips of the new finish missing on wrenches, pliers and so on. Not with the old finish!

I have an old U3 and a new 'Magic' U2 (with new logo) here and the difference in the finish is very clear. The new one looks more like a paint finish and looks thicker then the old one. Get some old and new products and compare!

 

[marlinspike]

You're the first one to know exactly what I mean! But why paint them if you chromed them? No one from Gedore that I talked to can give me a clear answer on that one! So if you have any idea?...

I think it's just to make them look nicer in the box/pictures. Stahlwille and Hazet are doing it too. If you want it gone, you can just wipe them off with some acetone. It really is just paint. The chrome is under that painted finish. Personally, I leave it and let it wear naturally.

 

[BMW_Garage]

I love Ebay..Just scored this 1/2 set for about 65 bucks shipped. What do you guys think?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/190781531727?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

 

[Outline]

I love Ebay..Just scored this 1/2 set for about 65 bucks shipped. What do you guys think?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/190781531727?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

That's an (very) old style handle and box! Price is not cheap > In the 2011-Magic special those sets (in Metric) were about €65,- and had an extension included.

I think it's just to make them look nicer in the box/pictures. Stahlwille and Hazet are doing it too. If you want it gone, you can just wipe them off with some acetone. It really is just paint. The chrome is under that painted finish. Personally, I leave it and let it wear naturally.

Like I said: The can't explain it themselves and a lot of customers hate that 'cheap' look. Like you said: Useless. Plus that it jacks up the price.

BTW: Never seen it (sticking out like that) with Hazet & Stahwille. And I have had those in my hands more than once!

 

[marlinspike]

Like I said: The can't explain it themselves and a lot of customers had that 'cheap' look. Like you said: Useless. Plus that it jacks up the price.

Buy German tools in the US and you'll learn the true meaning of jacked up price. As best as I can figure it, the reason is their closet competition is Snap-On, and Snap-On is very expensive, so the US distributors just jack up the prices here and figure nobody will notice. A pretty typical 1/2" drive set will run you $500+ new.

BTW: Never seen it (sticking out like that) with Hazet & Stahwille. And I have had those in my hands more than once!

I love Stahlwille tools because they fit everywhere, BUT I HATE the paint they use because it reacts with the liners I put in my tool box, so either I wipe the paint off or they an outline of themselves on the liner.

 

[Bogdan M.]

What I am talking about is that the newer, lighter and more like-a-paint chrome finish of Gedore is less dureble than the old finish they used. Seen whole chips of the new finish missing on wrenches, pliers and so on. Not with the old finish!

I have an old U3 and a new 'Magic' U2 (with new logo) here and the difference in the finish is very clear. The new one looks more like a paint finish and looks thicker then the old one. Get some old and new products and compare!

I didn't see that yet, hope it doesn't happen to me.
I can't compare because Gedore tools are very rare in my country and what I own is all I have seen. I also own an old 32 mm socket, but that's it.

I personally like the finish on my Gedore tools which are all made in 2012.

 

[unknow82]

I think with Stahlwille the goal isn't to be the strongest though. I use Stahlwille because they fit places other tools don't. You can't be the thinnest and smallest and be the strongest, so the goal is to be as thin and small as possible while being strong enough.

Actually old Stahlwille used to have text "Stronger then any bolt"...

Just a few days ago I had issue for fitting ring-end to 13mm nut to get intake maifold out from one of my cars, there where only one 13mm wrench that fit:

Old 1970's Bahco "Stockholm" 13mm it is, hands down, most thinnest and after all use from years and years still going good. Ring is 1.83mm thick, Stahlwille is 2.13mm.
I these pictures I have Bahco "Sweden" 13mm that is way more thicker.

 

[BMW_Garage]

Yeah, I'm in the US though and there's no Gedore socket set you can get here for 65 euro. Let alone a 1/2 drive. As someone already mentioned Gedore, Hazet and Stahlwille prices are ridiculous here. An average 17-19 pc Gedore 3/8 socket set is anywhere between 400-500 bucks on their website and maybe a little cheaper on Ebay... So even though this set is old( which is not a bad thing with Gedore ) I think 65 bucks is a great price even just for the sockets in the set.

 

[BMW_Garage]

Actually old Stahlwille used to have text "Stronger then any bolt"...

Just a few days ago I had issue for fitting ring-end to 13mm nut to get intake maifold out from one of my cars, there where only one 13mm wrench that fit:

Old 1970's Bahco "Stockholm" 13mm it is, hands down, most thinnest and after all use from years and years still going good. Ring is 1.83mm thick, Stahlwille is 2.13mm.
I these pictures I have Bahco "Sweden" 13mm that is way more thicker.

Nice collection you got there.

 

[unknow82]

Btw. Old Walter tool, One that has odd chrome color is most strongest wrenches I have, beats Hazet, but is no longer being made. (not sure if company existing anymore)

 

[unknow82]

Nice collection you got there.

Thanks, I do have set from most of them and seems like I forgot old and new serie Facom 13mm

 

[marlinspike]

Actually old Stahlwille used to have text "Stronger then any bolt"...

I know that used to be a marketing line, but when you look at how they build their tools the theme seems to be thin. I don't mean you can't find thinner thin lines (though even the Gedore No. 7 has a wider ring than the Stahlwille Type 14, just not as thick), Stahlwille tends to favor the thin side of the centerline (the open end on a 21mm Type 14 Stahlwille is significantly narrower than anything Gedore or Hazet make for instance).

 

[Monte]

A simple request from everyone who has a moment: We need a good set of pump pliers, 200mm-250mm. COO and marque not important.

took a look in the garage to see what the other guys have...

Knipex Cobra


rebadged NWS


VBW


and another VBW


my collection:


there is another Cobra laying around somewhere here and some no-name water pump pliers but they´re not worth mentioning

A
Overall, I would not recommend the Channellock.

they also don´t have a anti pinch protection for the fingers...

Some of my screwdrivers.

very nice tool collection

I find all these rebranding companies very confusing. It seems there are so many of them, and I spend time trying to figure out what they're offering only to realize it's a rebranding company and they offer nothing.

Simply buy from the well known tool manufacturers....

As we speak about rebranded tools here some E-TOP rebranded NWS. I think that NWS send to other companies products with flaws as you can see...

Your pliers are perfectly OK

What's the purpose of that "flaw"?

maybe it´s better for grabbing/holding round material so it don´t slip too easily because of the irregular shape of the jaws/teeth ?

Monte, thank you for information.
Can suggest some pliers and socket set that are made in Germany for branding companies?

german rebranded socket sets are difficult to find nowadays, Garant comes to my mind, pliers are easier like "Lux" "Format", "Primat"...

You're the first one to know exactly what I mean! But why paint them if you chromed them? No one from Gedore that I talked to can give me a clear answer on that one!

i guess because so the finish looks uniform on the inside. Sockets without paint often have a discoloration on the inside of the sockets. The chrome doesn´t adhere with a even coat on the inside.

What I am talking about is that the newer, lighter and more like-a-paint chrome finish of Gedore is less dureble than the old finish they used. Seen whole chips of the new finish missing on wrenches, pliers and so on. Not with the old finish!

maybe because it´s the new non-hexavalent eco-friendly chrome... ?

Just a few days ago I had issue for fitting ring-end to 13mm nut to get intake maifold out from one of my cars, there where only one 13mm wrench that fit:

nice collection !!

Btw. Old Walter tool, One that has odd chrome color is most strongest wrenches I have, beats Hazet, but is no longer being made. (not sure if company existing anymore)

www.cwalter.de

 

[N.I.]

Yeah, I'm in the US though and there's no Gedore socket set you can get here for 65 euro. Let alone a 1/2 drive. As someone already mentioned Gedore, Hazet and Stahlwille prices are ridiculous here. An average 17-19 pc Gedore 3/8 socket set is anywhere between 400-500 bucks on their website and maybe a little cheaper on Ebay... So even though this set is old( which is not a bad thing with Gedore ) I think 65 bucks is a great price even just for the sockets in the set.

It is the other way around in the UK.

For example, Snap On are looking £312.06 (inc vat) for their standard length 10 to 19mm wrench set.

For the same money I was able to pick up a Hazet 7-27mm set, a gedore No7 set 6 - 27mm, and finally a Facom 440 8 - 24mm set (which I bought because I liked the carry case).

That's 49 wrenches for the same money Snap On are looking for 10. You would have to be off your rocker to buy Snap On here.

 

[BMW_Garage]

Recently ordered this from Germany. Seems like the inlet fitting is a little shorter than anything else I,ve seen and the coupler I got won't fit. Any suggestions? Anything to do with metric and standard sizes maybe?

 

[Monte]

pic is too small.....where is the coupler from ..?

 

[lok]

What's the purpose of that "flaw"?

I don't know! Maybe someone slept.




@Blöckw@rtMG thanks for the photo of the used tools.
They look nicer than the new.

Kept my promise

I was dissapointed to find that my "new" 17mm wrench was actually not new; it had signs of previous use!

Superautobacs I can't see how this is a QC issue.

Some of my screwdrivers.

Great collection.

Actually old Stahlwille used to have text "Stronger then any bolt"...

Just a few days ago I had issue for fitting ring-end to 13mm nut to get intake maifold out from one of my cars, there where only one 13mm wrench that fit:

Old 1970's Bahco "Stockholm" 13mm it is, hands down, most thinnest and after all use from years and years still going good. Ring is 1.83mm thick, Stahlwille is 2.13mm.
I these pictures I have Bahco "Sweden" 13mm that is way more thicker.

Nice collection unknown82. Which of you two has more 13mm wrenches, you or Monte?

You're the first one to know exactly what I mean! But why paint them if you chromed them? No one from Gedore that I talked to can give me a clear answer on that one!

If someone (dealer or else) use the socket even once then he can not sell it for new. Like the Gedore 17mm wrench of Superautobacs.

Maybe the painting is there for that reason, maybe not.

Mine were all painted inside. After a year of use they are not.

But again I don't care how a socket looks inside.

Maybe the Germans make tools for people like me!

 

[unknow82]

Nice cllection unknown82. Which of you two has more 13mm wrenches, you or Monte?

Hah! Monte of course, he collects them! I collect old, real Bahco. Dowidat tools, only new tools I buy are Beta and Hazet 600n.

 

[BMW_Garage]

pic is too small.....where is the coupler from ..?

Well the coupler is the same as the one I use for all my air tools. The inlet fittings on all of my other tools are slightly longer though. I don't know why the picture appears small like that..?

 

[lok]

Hah! Monte of course, he collects them! I collect old, real Bahco. Dowidat tools, only new tools I buy are Beta and Hazet 600n.

Dowidat? I'm pretty sure my dealer has some sets and individual, NOS from Dowidat.

 

[marlinspike]

It is the other way around in the UK.

For example, Snap On are looking £312.06 (inc vat) for their standard length 10 to 19mm wrench set.

If it makes you feel better, Snap On rips us off here too. That set is $310 before tax here, so while it's cheaper than it is there, it's only $100 cheaper, whereas based on how much you were able to buy for the same price it looks like for the same tools in Europe from a European maker that is as good or better you're looking at about $100.

 

[BMW_Garage]

This is a little better.

 

[Monte]

thats a standard euro fitting in the Hazet tool...the thread inside of the tool should be 1/4" so you can install a american fitting

 

[lok]

(the open end on a 21mm Type 14 Stahlwille is significantly narrower than anything Gedore or Hazet make for instance).

That's why the Gedore is thiner and the Hazet stronger.

 

[Monte]

Any photo unpacked?

yes



Looks good so far, couldn´t open the drawers though so i dunno if they´re sloppy or not etc.

 

[William Payne]

Agree... Local mechanical school had Stahlwille tools used by students (ie. all wrong, all day) from 1960's, few years ago they bought multiple new toolboxes full of NEW Stahlwille tools. for past 45-years they had only broken few tools, but in just six monts with new tools they had carboard box full of broken tools. I see that it is metal itself is different from what old tools are.
That is why I collect old tools, they are simply better, I do have one toolbox of older Stahlwille.

Most of my wrenches are stahlwille, I havent heard of stahlwille tools breaking alot. Do you happen to know what particular tools where breaking?

I mostly like and use their wrenches, especially for comfort reasons. I would like to know more about this stahlwille breakage issues.

 

[BMW_Garage]

thats a standard euro fitting in the Hazet tool...the thread inside of the tool should be 1/4" so you can install a american fitting

Thanks Monte!

 

[cbracer]

I love the Felo drivers that I have, but every time I pick up this PB Swiss Insider ratchet, it makes me consider selling the Felos to replace with PB Swiss versions. I'm thoroughly impressed with the PB quality. I want more.

I have a full screw driver set in PB Swiss grip. Like them, but need another set for my traveling tool box. Want to get the Felo as I'm impressed by their grip. The PB swiss is a little small on their grips for my large sized hands. If Felo only has parallel tips! I can't tell you how much I love those parallel tip screwdrivers....

 

[CanUK]

Some of my screwdrivers.

Top pic looks like my screwdriver drawer

 

[CanUK]

Buy German tools in the US and you'll learn the true meaning of jacked up price. As best as I can figure it, the reason is their closet competition is Snap-On, and Snap-On is very expensive, so the US distributors just jack up the prices here and figure nobody will notice. A pretty typical 1/2" drive set will run you $500+ new.

Some of it mught be down to import tariffs?

 

[nanofrog]

Some of it mught be down to import tariffs?

Import tariffs aren't that high from what I understand (~12.5% for Germany, so less than VAT).

Assuming this is correct, what would explain the price differences other than a very high markup?

 

[CanUK]

Import tariffs aren't that high from what I understand (~12.5% for Germany, so less than VAT).

Assuming this is correct, what would explain the price differences other than a very high markup?

Maybe it is just markup then. Perhaps to offset (anticipated) low sales volume, or if they price them lower Americans will assume they're not in the same league as Snap On (which is laughable, but plausible).

I seem to recall that in the 80's when Harley was struggling to compete and survive in the face of higher quality Japanese imports, they successfully lobbied for an exceptional import tarrif on the Japanese bikes over a certain displacement (resulting in some odd variants on certain models -ie 700cc where the norm for the model was 750cc).

Maybe there's something in place like that for high-end tools?

 

[marlinspike]

Maybe it is just markup then. Perhaps to offset (anticipated) low sales volume, or if they price them lower Americans will assume they're not in the same league as Snap On (which is laughable, but plausible).

I seem to recall that in the 80's when Harley was struggling to compete and survive in the face of higher quality Japanese imports, they successfully lobbied for an exceptional import tarrif on the Japanese bikes over a certain displacement (resulting in some odd variants on certain models -ie 700cc where the norm for the model was 750cc).

Maybe there's something in place like that for high-end tools?

Nope, there's no protective tariff in place (there's a tariff, but a small one). I think it's a case of "this is at least as good as Snap On if not better, so we should charge at least as much as Snap On in the US market." Though, it is true that we are presently getting slaughtered on the exchange rate and shipping costs, but I think it's telling how little the prices changed despite large changes in the exchange rate.

 

[gears5tw]

Import tariffs aren't that high from what I understand (~12.5% for Germany, so less than VAT).

Assuming this is correct, what would explain the price differences other than a very high markup?

- Euro is stronger than the us dollar

 

[marlinspike]

- Euro is stronger than the us dollar

That explains why the number is numerically higher. It doesn't explain why until Ash it was always WAY cheaper to buy from Germany and pay the shipping and tariff.

 

[shoturtle]

It also depends when they brought the tools as well. If it was older stock when the euro was up at 1.40 or 1.50 and high fuel prices for shipping. Also volume they move is not as high as the euro sources. So they do not get as big discount on their orders. Allot of German tool seller also has to figure in store rents.

While the doallr is down to 1.30 for the euro. I still fine buying German tools in Germany cheaper then in the us.

Ash has been excellent for the board, and has good prices for the US. But he is still higher for nws and other German tools then my big box and tools store in Germany.

And gedore and hazet are expensive in Germany, and when you factor in the exchange rate, lower discount rate, and shipping and business related cost in the us. Those brand will be allot more expensive to buy in the us.

Remember when the exchange rate was almost 1.60. German made cars from BMW and mb were selling at msrp. As BMWNA could not discount them without loosing money.

 

[marlinspike]

Remember when the exchange rate was almost 1.60. German made cars from BMW and mb were selling at msrp. As BMWNA could not discount them without loosing money.

Maybe that's the lie they told people. I'm in a situation where my family has old ties to a Mercedes dealer. When the exchange rate was over $1.5 to 1 euro, they were offering us a new $37k msrp car for $30k out the door, and they've never lost money on a sale to us.

 

[Monte]

"Parkside" 10 pc. jig saw blade set from the local "Lidl" food store for €4.99

 

[shoturtle]

Maybe that's the lie they told people. I'm in a situation where my family has old ties to a Mercedes dealer. When the exchange rate was over $1.5 to 1 euro, they were offering us a new $37k msrp car for $30k out the door, and they've never lost money on a sale to us.

That was when the cars where at exchange rates of $1.60 for a euro. It was not a lie. I have very good friends that worked for BMWNA in NJ. And he knew the real deal with the price for a German made 5, 6, 7 which comes form germany, you were paying msrp. The 3 and x are made in the US, then you got deals. Same things went for MD, their US made products you got deal with, but not their German made one.

And at 37k msrp you did not get a 5, 6 or 7 series or a E or S or SEL.

 

[jensputzier]

maybe because it´s the new non-hexavalent eco-friendly chrome... ?

Are you sure that there is a non-hexavalent hardchromium process? I am involved i a research project of the German government where they search for non hexavalent replacements for hard chromium (opposed to decorative chrome). AFAIK there is no galvanic solution.