Tools from the old world

[mr.lemons]

I think the Toptul you mention are the same as Facom 440s.

I've read through that thread a couple of times. Wish there were more threads like that. Miskin was able to measure the hardness of the various wrenches.

The HRC measurement is higher on the Stahlwille than Hazet so the Stahlwille should be harder but I think anyone who has used both would not agree. I guess there is more to it than just the HRC values.

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=201468&showall=1

Brand--------------------------HRC---------------- Chrome coating (μm)
Proxxon-------------------------45--------------------
Acesa----------------------------32--------------------
Gedore No7---------------------40---------------------
Garant---------------------------41--------------------
Matador 190---------------------41---------------------8.5
Garant---------------------------41--------------------~0
Stahlwille-----------------------47---------------------~0
Matador 190 old series---------38--------------------15
HR (India) Lidl------------------34--------------------10
Bost-----------------------------49 -----------08
Dowidat No6 12-13-------------38--------------------10
Gedore No6 14-17--------------52 --------------10
Unior----------------------------47.5-------------------15
IUS------------------------------47 --------------05
Izeltas---------------------------44----------------------~0
Cobalt Ratcheting Wrench------45----------------------~0
Hazet 600N Beam--------------35----------------------17
-------------open end------------- 34---------------------~0
Hazet 603-----------------------40----------------------~0
Facom 440----------------------44----------------------~0
Stanley 87-073------------------41----------------------?
Snap-On-------------------------45,5--------------------10
Husky combi---------------------43---------------------10
Husky ratcheting combi----------40--------------------10
Craftsman USA-------------------39,5-------------------0
Pittsburgh-------------------------35?---------------------5 to 10
Heyco 410 Maxline---------------44---------------------~0
Heyco 400------------------------28----------------------~0 (10μm on beam)
Gedore 1B------------------------42.5--------------------~0
Beta 55 13-17---------------------43--------------------------~0

Edit. Regarding Toptul longs being designed for reach rather then torque. They have the slimmest profile of the spanners I looked at and are the longest. That's what impressed me about them along with the price. Would be nice if the beams were a little thicker along the edges for comfort.

Toptul in the middle. Stahlwille on top and Hazet on the bottom.

 

[mrspeed]

I usually enjoy this channel, but couldn't watch this video all the way through. It's amazing how much time and effort goes into some of these reviews relative to how little research.

Alternate video title: Lessmann vs Lessmann vs Lessmann

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[Olafur]

I think the Toptul you mention are the same as Facom 440s.

I've read through that thread a couple of times. Wish there were more threads like that. Miskin was able to measure the hardness of the various wrenches.

The HRC measurement is higher on the Stahlwille than Hazet so the Stahlwille should be harder but I think anyone who has used both would not agree. I guess there is more to it than just the HRC values.

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=201468&showall=1

The HRC measurement is perfectly in line with my experience with Stahlwille. I have seen many of them, old and abused. I also have a complete set from 8-24mm of #14, also a set of their Corona wrenches. Used professionally repairing heavy trucks and transmissions for few years. So far it's only yours and mine 10mm #14 showing signs of being soft. I wonder what that is. It's even possible they came from the same bad batch..

Not familiar with these Facom wrenches but I guess they are similar to the Hi performancer toptul wrenches, not the super torque version.
Toptul makes several types of combination wrenches.

Since the Facom wrenches are sold as general combination wrenches I would be surprised if they are as thick as Toptul Super Torque because there are places they can't access because of their dimensions - and their strength is overkill in most uses.

 

[Dave455]

We need to bear in mind that no open end wrench can ever withstand the torque that a ring spanner / box end can.

Although there’s a trend towards long and extra long combination wrenches, there’s also an argument for having a set of, probably shorter, open ended wrenches, and a set of longer ring / box ends.

If you want to go for the extra long, perhaps consider the extra long / high performance box ends that abound!

I suspect that a lot of folks who own Stahlwille 14’s, or their like, seldom use the open end. I have a selection of Stahlwille wrenches though, which see regular use, and none have deformed like this!

 

[marcone]

Hi, I am looking for hand drill with a precision chuck to mount in a drill stand I already have.
Candidates: Metabo BE600/13-2 and Bosch GBM 13-2RE.
Both cost about the same
Bosch seems to be more powerful but Metabo states higher torque numbers
Bosch is Russia made, Metabo is Germany.

What should I choose? Any obvious differences between the 2?

 

[Olafur]

We need to bear in mind that no open end wrench can ever withstand the torque that a ring spanner / box end can.

Although there’s a trend towards long and extra long combination wrenches, there’s also an argument for having a set of, probably shorter, open ended wrenches, and a set of longer ring / box ends.

If you want to go for the extra long, perhaps consider the extra long / high performance box ends that abound!

I suspect that a lot of folks who own Stahlwille 14’s, or their like, seldom use the open end. I have a selection of Stahlwille wrenches though, which see regular use, and none have deformed like this!

Agreed.

In my work rarely do I have to rely on the strength of open ends. But it happens, mostly on hydraulic fittings and usually on larger sizes 17mm and up. The car guys doing alignment a lot might tell a different story.

 

[Samuel D]

Played around with some 10mm spanners today to see how strong their open ends are.

Interesting test, commentary, and photos.

Would you be able to list the jaw thicknesses of the tested spanners? I wonder if that accounts for some of the differences.

 

[mr.lemons]

It was farm work (rusty fence brackets) I was struggling to dismantle with the Stahlwille 14. Had to use the open end as the brackets were up against a wall which was flush behind the fencing. Ended up cutting the brackets. Farm work is new to me and I'm sure someone more experienced would have gone straight to the cutting.

I can only go off the tools I have in my hands and unfortunately Stahlwille let me down this time. Yes it could be a one off bad example or from a bad batch. Hope it is really as I have a few Stahlwille tools now.

Very approximate measurements as the thickness is not uniform. Most taper towards the tips so first measurement is as the back of the open end and the second is nearer the tips.

Elora 4.80 4.68
Kincrome 5.86 5.54
Hazet 5.31 5.14
Stahlwille 5.32 5.30
Facom 5.23 5.23
Toptul 4.78 4.61

Also the width and shape of the jaws varies. Stahlwille (bottom left) are the narrowest.

Stahlwille next to Hazet.

 

[gtlaw]

Been wanting a set of t-handles for a long time.

My first impression is I prefer the standard type over the pico finish.

Freebie

 

[garfieldzzz]

Hi, I am looking for hand drill with a precision chuck to mount in a drill stand I already have.
Candidates: Metabo BE600/13-2 and Bosch GBM 13-2RE.
Both cost about the same
Bosch seems to be more powerful but Metabo states higher torque numbers
Bosch is Russia made, Metabo is Germany.

What should I choose? Any obvious differences between the 2?

its a head to head, the Bosch is supposedly a bit more powerful.
I personally would choose the Metabo, the run nice and feel sturdier but I would go for the BE850-2 for better speed range and it would be the real competitor to the Bosch.

 

[jimmyin3D]

I don't know if they have altered the sizing at any point. These are both PH2. Heavy duty has longer/thicker handle and thicker shank. Similar differences in PH1 also.

The end caps on the black handles have changed over time. Plain caps, stamped caps then laser etched. The slotted in the pics have laser etched caps.

You were right, I never noticed that. The Phillips handles are a little oversized, where as the Slotted have the same handle size but shorter shanks.

 

[mr.lemons]

^ Yes, not much in it. Only noticed when I put them side to side for pics.


A couple of late arrivals that I wanted to try. Don't worry this is the end of this questionable testing.

Snap on 10mm combination and Britool open 10+11mm. Both were purchased used. The Britool is vintage, not sure about the Snap on.

The Snap on open end slips off quite easily with a bare hand. About the same as the Elora and Stahlwille. Was surprised that the Snap on sustained very little damage. Elastic rather than soft . The Britool did not slip even when wearing a glove but did sustain some damage.

Snap on.

Britool.

 

[Dakkyz]

It's a shame Britool went under / got bought out then got rebranded as the Expert Range that isnt really any better than the rest of the tawian offerings.

Be intresting to see how King **** Fairs in youre tests.

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[mr.lemons]

Posted previously about purchasing a pair of used Rennsteig wire strippers which had a missing plastic part (length stop). I emailed Rennsteig and Knipex enquiring if I could purchase the part separately. Rennsteig have not replied but Knipex got straight back to me and said they would send the part out FOC. Two weeks later I received the part. Squeezing the 'length stop' opens up the central hole so is can be moved along the knurled rod and used as a guide to strip equal lengths. Great service from Knipex.

 

[Qualitytools]

Very Nice, and thanks for sharing Knipex Customer Service experience.

 

[JBH]

Posted previously about purchasing a pair of used Rennsteig wire strippers which had a missing plastic part (length stop). I emailed Rennsteig and Knipex enquiring if I could purchase the part separately. Rennsteig have not replied but Knipex got straight back to me and said they would send the part out FOC. Two weeks later I received the part. Squeezing the 'length stop' opens up the central hole so is can be moved along the knurled rod and used as a guide to strip equal lengths. Great service from Knipex.

But German tool companies have crappy customer service, remember?

Seriously, impressive that someone from Knipex would go to the effort of finding a spare part and posting it, for a tool that technically wasn’t even theirs. I assume that Knipex and Rennsteig subsidiaries in the U.K. are different companies; they are in the US.

 

[mr.lemons]

^

I used the contact form on the Knipex website so the part and service came from Knipex Germany.

 

[mrspeed]

Finally got some Wezag crimpers for non insulated wire to go with the ones for insulated wire. This time I found them on sale from USAG. No COO anywhere on them or the packaging, but I think we all know what's up with these. USAG and Beta seem to be the worst offenders when it comes to omitting COO even when they're made somewhere you can brag about.





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[mr.lemons]

Toptul GAAF1008 extra long spanners. 10-19mm. Interested to find out if they can be used as my main set or if they are too long for general use. No COO on the spanners or packaging. I believe they are made in Taiwan.

Fit well in a Facom N.38A-12B tool roll.

Info on the packaging suggests that the set is available in satin or mirror finish. I've seen mention of a choice of two finishes with other Toptul tools but haven't seen any of the 'mirror' finish available.

Also picked up T40 T45 T50 1/2" bit sockets.

I find it interesting that the Toptul tools I've seen look to take influence from European tool design rather than US. The long spanners look very much like stretched Elora 205s.

 

[LeGarage]

It’s been a while...

 

[Kasal]

Toptul GAAF1008 extra long spanners. 10-19mm. Interested to find out if they can be used as my main set or if they are too long for general use. No COO on the spanners or packaging. I believe they are made in Taiwan.

Fit well in a Facom N.38A-12B tool roll.

Info on the packaging suggests that the set is available in satin or mirror finish. I've seen mention of a choice of two finishes with other Toptul tools but haven't seen any of the 'mirror' finish available.

Also picked up T40 T45 T50 1/2" bit sockets.

I find it interesting that the Toptul tools I've seen look to take influence from European tool design rather than US. The long spanners look very much like stretched Elora 205s.

tell your opinion when the tests are in my future buy for a few months but I still have not decided.

 

[German Satin]

Woow Made in Germany = Quality ...my ***
Write to gedore about this or return if you can, is a serious issue. This reminds me of china cheap sets from the 90'

The imperfections with the finish aren't out of the ordinary for German tools but I wouldn't be happy with the placement of the detents on said sockets.

 

[German Satin]

tell your opinion when the tests are in my future buy for a few months but I still have not decided.

Toptul tools are really growing on me. Lovely finish to them. Hope your happy with them.

 

[losvre]

Not posted for a while but got the following.

Bosch GBH 2-26F for some restoration at my parents house.

It was on offer from Bosch in UK. Only thing is that most production now goes to China and Russia and so I confirmed cop on the phone before ordering.










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[losvre]

It was less than half the price of the Metabo UHEV 28-60 quick which I have at my place.

The Bosch feels much lighter and you may use it one handed for a while while the Metabo is quite heavier and not for one hand for sure.

Performance wise the Metabo is by far a stronger machine. Metabo would break stone/ rock, concrete slab in a beat whilst the Bosch is struggling.

I think for renovation like tiles, drilling and chipping Bosch might be better as it is lighter and less prone to break down something l.

Metabo would be suited for more light demolition projects, heavy drilling etc.

If I have got to pick one though I would get Metabo because of the hammer power and high rpm 2100 rpm at full load vs Bosch at 1300 rpm.

Also, the Metabo has variable speed/ stroke which can be set and forget and you only hold the drill, no need to vary the pressure on the switch.






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[Dave455]

The last Bosch drill that I got was made in Malaysia. The quality seems pretty fair - it doesn’t have the feel and smell that most of the Chinese stuff does.

Nice to get some German made though!

 

[losvre]

The last Bosch drill that I got was made in Malaysia. The quality seems pretty fair - it doesn’t have the feel and smell that most of the Chinese stuff does.

Nice to get some German made though!

Hi Dave,

As far as I know all the mainstream Bosch tools are made in Malaysia, I have also a 12V one which is from Malaysia.

The SDS and some more beefy drills used to be made in Germany and some still do. However, whilst as was looking at reviews for this specific model some people in Amazon.de reported coo was China.

That is why I called Bosch with the specific product number to confirm cop before purchase.

I think that the ones made in Malaysia are very good since they have been made there for very long time and they have established manufacturing and QA.

The ones from Russia and China having issues from time to time.


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[Bogdan M.]

 

[mr.lemons]

Tried the xl Toptul spanners today on a job that didn't require extra reach or extra torque. For me they are too long for general use. Smaller sizes are ok but the larger sizes knock into everything and feel unwieldy.

Quickly reverted back to shorter tools.

Stahlwille STW126005 Flexible Magnetic Lifter 500mm

Feels a bit cheap and gets mixed reviews regarding durability on Amazon but seems like it will be functional enough.

Wire stays in whatever shape you bend it.

'Made in Germany' on the packaging. No COO on the tool.

Small magnet can hold a 19mm spanner.

Compiled a metric set of used Britool open end spanners from Ebay. Bit rough around the edges but cheaper that a new Taiwan or German set.

 

[mr.lemons]

Hazet 803-T25 torx driver.

My fault for not checking the specs but disappointed with the small size of this. Expected the handle to be the same size at the PH2 handle from the same range.

Compared to Hazet PH2

Compared to PB T25.

 

[mrspeed]

Stahlwille STW126005 Flexible Magnetic Lifter 500mm

Feels a bit cheap and gets mixed reviews regarding durability on Amazon but seems like it will be functional enough.

Wire stays in whatever shape you bend it.

'Made in Germany' on the packaging. No COO on the tool.

Small magnet can hold a 19mm spanner.

I'm a fan of the Elora magnetic pickup tool, which can supposedly pick up 1.8kg. it has made in Germany cast in the plastic of the handle. Here I'm testing it successfully with an Elora 1.25kg hammer, which I believe is made by Osca.




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[measuredtwice]

Mr.Lemons, Enjoyed your photos

 

[willehaz]

Hi, guys!
I recently bought two little socket sets. The Britool seen at the pictures, cost me around 3 euros and 30 cents, while Orenco cost me around 2 and a half euros. It was really cheap.
Orenco has sizes 10 to 17 (missing 11). Britool, also miss one socket, and beside regular sizes (like 11), it has some odd sizes (like 22.5).
I know that Britool made some really quality tools in the past, and although I am not very familiar with Orenco it seems they were also good.

Can some one tell me something more about these sets. How old are they?
At the end, are they worth keeping? I already have a lot of tools so I am thinking whether to keep them, or to give them away to some of my friends...

 

[Dave455]

Britool did produce some very good quality tools in the past (probably the British equivalent of Snap On) sadly now they are jut a name, owned by Stanley, and put on Far Eastern made tools.

The Britool set you show is fairly old, it predates me for sure, and I’m thinking it probably dates from the 1950’s.

As you probably noticed, it’s hex drive. The original Britool sockets were hex drive, but they continued making hex drive tools long after they had introduced square drive, so you can’t date the tools from that alone. The logo style, the finish (both tools and box), ‘British Made’ instead of ‘Made in England’ and the typeface all scream 1950’s to me.

These tools would probably have been produced for export. Metric tools were very rare in the U.K. in the 50’s!

Still probably perfectly usable, and you can probably pick up other handles in hex drive for relatively little money!

Edit - I should have added that the sockets in the Britool set are not the standard sockets. They seem to be a ‘short’ pattern that I only generally see in these small sets. I see these sets used quite often in the U.K. usually in Whitworth sizes. They don’t generally fetch much money, considering the quality, but you got a really good deal for €3.30!

 

[Blöckw@rt]

 

[mr.lemons]

Fifteen spanners for £15.

 

[willehaz]

Britool did produce some very good quality tools in the past (probably the British equivalent of Snap On) sadly now they are jut a name, owned by Stanley, and put on Far Eastern made tools.

The Britool set you show is fairly old, it predates me for sure, and I’m thinking it probably dates from the 1950’s.

As you probably noticed, it’s hex drive. The original Britool sockets were hex drive, but they continued making hex drive tools long after they had introduced square drive, so you can’t date the tools from that alone. The logo style, the finish (both tools and box), ‘British Made’ instead of ‘Made in England’ and the typeface all scream 1950’s to me.

These tools would probably have been produced for export. Metric tools were very rare in the U.K. in the 50’s!

Still probably perfectly usable, and you can probably pick up other handles in hex drive for relatively little money!

Edit - I should have added that the sockets in the Britool set are not the standard sockets. They seem to be a ‘short’ pattern that I only generally see in these small sets. I see these sets used quite often in the U.K. usually in Whitworth sizes. They don’t generally fetch much money, considering the quality, but you got a really good deal for €3.30!

Thanks Dave! All the info you gave me is really valuable!
By the way, it can not be seen at the photos, but sockets are marked this way:
22.5mm -british BRITOOL made- 7/8 A/F
19mm -british BRITOOL made- 3/4 A/F
16mm -british BRITOOL made- 5/8 A/F
14.5mm -british BRITOOL made- 9/16 A/F
11mm -british BRITOOL made- 7/16 A/F

They have values in both, metric and A/F. Maybe this additionally helps you to determine the age of the set...

 

[mr.lemons]

Christmas!

Wera 136600 Limited Edition Christmas Advent Calendar 2019.

https://primetools.co.uk/product/we...-kit-set/?mc_cid=bcf79ed592&mc_eid=ed0393e5a6

 

[garfieldzzz]

A good one

 

[superautobacs]

Christmas!

It seems as though Christmas awareness is brought to our attention earlier and earlier. Soon enough they will be promoting it at the start of Spring.