Tools/machines that have become obsolete?

[BreeStephany]

I've known people giving away distributor testers, Sun machines and brakes lathes over the last few years. Often having difficulty getting rid of them for free. The same with Lincoln tombstone welders.

I was shocked a little over a year ago when I picked up an old Lincoln Idealarc 250 'tombstone' / rounded head welder with 50' 4/0 fine stranded leads for $100. They even plugged it in at their shop and let me run a few beads of rod they provided me and it did its job without issue.

The Idealarc 250 was the machine I learned to weld on almost 20 years ago and I love them, but most shops are going to more compact, lighter weight and more adjustable inverter driven machines so a lot of shops just can't get anyone to take these bigger transformer machines, let alone buy them.

For my needs as a 'hobby' welder these days, its a great machine and will do anything I will ever need it for!

With that said, transformer driven welders are definitely becoming a thing of the past with the portability and flexibility of inverter driven machines. No longer do welders have to park their truck with a giant engine driven welder out in the parking lot and drag their leads into buildings to get a job done on many fabrication projects where a small 120/240V inverter driven machine that they can carry with one person right to the welding location will do just fine.

Are they OBSOLETE? they still serve a purpose for many and do a great job, but for those who use welders every day, modern more portable machines are the way to go.

 

[Sumboodie]

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I think adjustable wrenches are becoming obsolete. I have a lot of very nice Bahco adjustable wrenches that I never use anymore after purchasing a couple Knipex Pliers Wrenches.

I find being able to apply pressure while turning is a huge pro.

I use adjustables constantly. Nice to carry one or two wrenches vs 10lbs when working a ways from the shop or service truck.

 

[Jarhead0408]

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I think adjustable wrenches are becoming obsolete. I have a lot of very nice Bahco adjustable wrenches that I never use anymore after purchasing a couple Knipex Pliers Wrenches.

I find being able to apply pressure while turning is a huge pro.

Whew,

Man, I use a ton of adjustable wrenches.

Every vehicle has a couple, same with my tools bags I throw in the big rig. I like the pliers wrenches, but if I lose an adjustable wrench I’m not out of too much money.

 

[Firebrick43]

Yes, I used to have a cam operated Swiss lathe in my shop. It made two complete parts in the amount of time it took my CNC lathe to feed out stock. Swiss have all gone CNC now, too. When I ran screw machines, we had work orders for 1 million parts at a time. In those volumes, even fractions of a second count.

Some the new Swiss type CNC machines are almost as quick as the cam machines. However the set up time on a Swiss machine takes hours vs minutes on the CNC. And a lot longer of you have to make the cams for a new part.

 

[Firebrick43]

I was shocked a little over a year ago when I picked up an old Lincoln Idealarc 250 'tombstone' / rounded head welder with 50' 4/0 fine stranded leads for $100. They even plugged it in at their shop and let me run a few beads of rod they provided me and it did its job without issue.

The Idealarc 250 was the machine I learned to weld on almost 20 years ago and I love them, but most shops are going to more compact, lighter weight and more adjustable inverter driven machines so a lot of shops just can't get anyone to take these bigger transformer machines, let alone buy them.

For my needs as a 'hobby' welder these days, its a great machine and will do anything I will ever need it for!

With that said, transformer driven welders are definitely becoming a thing of the past with the portability and flexibility of inverter driven machines. No longer do welders have to park their truck with a giant engine driven welder out in the parking lot and drag their leads into buildings to get a job done on many fabrication projects where a small 120/240V inverter driven machine that they can carry with one person right to the welding location will do just fine.

Are they OBSOLETE? they still serve a purpose for many and do a great job, but for those who use welders every day, modern more portable machines are the way to go.

Even in production cell welding where portability is moot the big stick welders are dead in industry. Heavy sections are welded with dual shield mig or submerged arc. Both have all the advantages of stick with out the disadvantage of being somewhat slow and having to change electrode every min or so which creates a chance slag inclusions and slows you down even more.

Where portability does matter like pipelines they are now using pulsed mig with tents or sheds temp placed over the joint being welded.

 

[whateg01]

Any mill accessories like rotary table, indexer, gear hobber, all can be done better and faster with CNC.

Obsolete in industry, maybe. Not for the home shop who doesn't have CNC.

 

[dchawk81]

Obsolete in industry, maybe. Not for the home shop who doesn't have CNC.

I'm not sure I'd use a home shop as the yardstick for obsolescence.

 

[f121]

You'll find those were either scrapped, or exported overseas and are still in use somewhere churning out parts.

Even small manual engine lathes get exported overseas from the UK, there are dealers who go round and buy all the common makes if the price is low enough and fill shipping containers.

I sold a nice no6 fly press to a guy who buys those and anvils and ships them to the USA, where it seems they are worth about 3 times as much as here

Wow! I was about to weigh one of those presses.

 

[dr_clyde]

Obsolescence doesn’t factor in hobbies.

Just because you have one and use one doesn’t mean it isn’t obsolete.

The industry something was designed for and used in defines its relevance. And even then, it’s a sliding scale.

Welding is a good example of this. Let’s use stick welding for instance. 100% obsolete in certain sections of welding, used occasionally in most and every day in a few.

I would argue something is obsolete when 60%+ of industry has moved on. Some people hang on to obsolete stuff for decades.

I would also point out that just because something is obsolete doesn’t mean it isn’t still useful. I know my 1991 CNC Hurco is obsolete. It still gets used every day and still makes money. A new mill would be better in every measurable way but I’m looking at 150k+ for a machine that the ROI isn’t there on yet. I’ll keep using my obsolete mill until I can justify upgrading.

 

[dchawk81]

Obsolescence doesn’t factor in hobbies.

Just because you have one and use one doesn’t mean it isn’t obsolete.

The industry something was designed for and used in defines its relevance. And even then, it’s a sliding scale.

Welding is a good example of this. Let’s use stick welding for instance. 100% obsolete in certain sections of welding, used occasionally in most and every day in a few.

I would argue something is obsolete when 60%+ of industry has moved on. Some people hang on to obsolete stuff for decades.

I would also point out that just because something is obsolete doesn’t mean it isn’t still useful. I know my 1991 CNC Hurco is obsolete. It still gets used every day and still makes money. A new mill would be better in every measurable way but I’m looking at 150k+ for a machine that the ROI isn’t there on yet. I’ll keep using my obsolete mill until I can justify upgrading.

Exactly. I have professional digital cameras that are still as good as they were when they were new, but they're obsolete by today's standards.

I can make the same images I made back then, but I couldn't be competitive in the professional sphere today. There are technical aspects that are lacking, no matter what a hobbyist chasing the art aspect claims.

 

[dutchgray]

Wow! I was about to weigh one of those presses.

It's one of very few things I ever made a profit on, the bigger sizes especially are worth a bit.
I still have two of them, a medium sized one and a small no1 which I got from a scrap yard for about double what it's scrap value was, which was a few years ago when iron prices were on the floor.

They used to be all but worthless, as there is almost no industry left still regularly using them, but the hobby blacksmith types use them especially for simple production type jobs.

 

[Old Man Roger]

So I probably don't want to buy this then?

 

[slowtwitch73]

Pretty much anything non digital in a hobbyist/homeowners shop. That's why its there.

 

[jonesg]

Any mill accessories like rotary table, indexer, gear hobber, all can be done better and faster with CNC.

faster but not better.
a hand scraped lathe bed for example.

 

[Firebrick43]

faster but not better.
a hand scraped lathe bed for example.

You wouldn't put a lathe bed on a rotary table, indexer, or gear hobber? Nor would you hand scrape things like gears or a radial bolt hole patterns, or splines on a shaft.

Or am I using my biax wrong?

And I have worked on large lathes that the bed was ground on a CNC grinder with acceptable results.

 

[lynnbilodeau]

I've known people giving away distributor testers, Sun machines and brakes lathes over the last few years. Often having difficulty getting rid of them for free. The same with Lincoln tombstone welders.

The old Snap-on distributor tester can be bought cheap. But they were really just used as a teaching tool in Vo-tech.
On the other hand, a well preserved and working (converted to transistors) Sun Distributor machine is still highly sought after. They are great for dialing in distributors on old cars, especially muscle cars. I have 16 cars. Only 3 of them DON'T have a distributor that I can put in my Sun machine to dial in. I wouldn't take less than $2500 for my machine; but you will have to wait a few years, as I am still using it.

 

[dr_clyde]

faster but not better.
a hand scraped lathe bed for example.

Better in a lot of ways too. Making money is important, and while something may technically be possible on a manual, if it’s not practical or profitable it may as well be not possible.

CNCs can generate geometry easily that is impossible or exceedingly difficult to do on a manual machine, and they can do it in a fraction of the time with consistent tool life, surface finishes and tolerances.

Almost without exception, if something can be done with a CNC it is.

Repairs, one offs and customs are done frequently on a manual machine mostly because it’s not practical leverage the benefits of CNC, but that only holds water on simple or small jobs. I routinely run one or two parts in my CNCs that technically are possible on the manuals but are better quality coming off the CNCs.

 

[Y00PER]

I would guess most people don't have dwell meters any more. I know mine is a dust collector

 

[KnurledNut]

Milwaukee 2767.

RIP H96B

 

[KnurledNut]

Delete. Double post.

 

[Whitworth]

I guess rafter squares are obsolete, other than being oversized squares.
I haven't seen a traditional rafter framed roof go up in ages. It's all trusses and cranes now.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

With the rise of CNC, I'm surprised that manual mills and lathes still command good money. I have a manual surface grinder that I can't give away. I still have all of my precision tools from when I was building plastic injection molds. Once worth 10's of thousands of dollars, I shudder to think of what they would sell for today. I'd rather watch 'em rust away than sell them for 10 cents (or less) on the dollar.

I'm not convinced that CNC is "worth it" for 99% of my home shop tasks.

Yesterday, as just one of many examples, I needed to turn a section of 1" steel shaft down to an interference fit for installation in a bore.

My 1953 South Bend Heavy 10 didn't need CNC or even a digital readout to make short work of that. I doubt anyone could have programmed the CNC machine to cut it by the time I was back in the house watching the Colts game.

CNC comes into it's own where you are making multiple copies of the same part. I almost never do that. Same thing with milling. I did put a DRO on my Mill which is nice....but in the decade or so I've owned it, I've only thought "CNC would be really nice for this job I'm doing today" once or twice.

 

[Firebrick43]

I'm not convinced that CNC is "worth it" for 99% of my home shop tasks.

Yesterday, as just one of many examples, I needed to turn a section of 1" steel shaft down to an interference fit for installation in a bore.

My 1953 South Bend Heavy 10 didn't need CNC or even a digital readout to make short work of that. I doubt anyone could have programmed the CNC machine to cut it by the time I was back in the house watching the Colts game.

A machine with conversational language could be programmed for a simple cut like that in a minute.

 

[LOW1]

Hog nose ring pliers

You might go to jail now if you used one for its original purpose..

Or maybe your teenager or local tat shop would pay big for one?

 

[Retired dozer fixer]

I've known people giving away distributor testers, Sun machines and brakes lathes over the last few years. Often having difficulty getting rid of them for free. The same with Lincoln tombstone welders.

Stick welders in general. Nobody learns how anymore. Wire machines are so easy and don’t require much skill

 

[dutchgray]

I guess rafter squares are obsolete, other than being oversized squares.
I haven't seen a traditional rafter framed roof go up in ages. It's all trusses and cranes now.

I still do traditional rafter roofs (in the UK) but all the large scale house building is trusses.
Not that I have ever used a rafter square to do one.

 

[Pinemarten]

With that said, transformer driven welders are definitely becoming a thing of the past with the portability and flexibility of inverter driven machines. No longer do welders have to park their truck with a giant engine driven welder out in the parking lot and drag their leads into buildings to get a job done on many fabrication projects where a small 120/240V inverter driven machine that they can carry with one person right to the welding location will do just fine.

I don't disagree with the above generally, but sometimes the exception proves the rule.

Today, my buddy who's shop I work out of sometimes, is welding on a bridge today with his shop-truck engine driven Miller welder. He will be dangling his long leads over the railing and welding reinforcing gussets on the beams. We cut the 1/4" (maybe 5/16") 6"x6" L-angle, 6 @ 26" and 12 @ 14". That is a lot of weld on a structure that doesn't lend itself to a tent to exclude a breeze.

Engine driven stick still has a place, but that place keeps getting smaller!

 

[cannuck]

Inter

valve seat grinders.

Neway type seat cutters and their significant advantages have displaced the seat grinders in most shops.

Nice to hear that. I have used Neway stuff since day one of engine building (1973 for me). Never understood why anyone would use stones.

 

[dr_clyde]

I'm not convinced that CNC is "worth it" for 99% of my home shop tasks.

Yesterday, as just one of many examples, I needed to turn a section of 1" steel shaft down to an interference fit for installation in a bore.

My 1953 South Bend Heavy 10 didn't need CNC or even a digital readout to make short work of that. I doubt anyone could have programmed the CNC machine to cut it by the time I was back in the house watching the Colts game.

CNC comes into it's own where you are making multiple copies of the same part. I almost never do that. Same thing with milling. I did put a DRO on my Mill which is nice....but in the decade or so I've owned it, I've only thought "CNC would be really nice for this job I'm doing today" once or twice.

This is one of the biggest misconceptions about CNC.

Conversational programming is FAST for simple parts, especially lathe parts. The tools are loaded in the turret, calibrated and ready to go at a moment's notice. All I need to do is define the stock, touch off the tool and write a few lines of what I want it to do. Sometimes I need to change the jaws. I bet I run one offs at least once a week. The more complex the part the more CNC justifies itself. Adding radii, chamfers, tapers, threads, all of this is fast and just a few lines of code.

The only thing I use my manuals for anymore is facing off random parts or jobs I want to run when the CNC is busy with something else.

 

[whateg01]

Stick welders in general. Nobody learns how anymore. Wire machines are so easy and don’t require much skill

Probably should let the pipeliners know that. I don't think they got the message.

 

[dr_clyde]

The other thing to remember about modern CNC machining is that almost no one is finger coding G code at the control. Conversational programming is DESIGNED to be fast and efficient for one offs. If your machine isn't conversational, modern CAM systems are really fast and easy to use.

Simple parts are always going to be the hardest to justify setting up a CNC for, but really, they go fast once you actually know how to run the machine.

 

[seber]

CNC has a place in production, but maintenance shops still need manual machines. A long way from obsolete. Same for traditional rafter construction. One garage or shop is just faster and therefor less expensive with traditional construction.

 

[Hohn]

Spark plug cleaners I would say are definitely obsolete.

This is progress, IMO.

 

[dr_clyde]

CNC has a place in production, but maintenance shops still need manual machines. A long way from obsolete. Same for traditional rafter construction. One garage or shop is just faster and therefor less expensive with traditional construction.

I'm not saying there isn't a place for manual machines, but that was never the argument.

The argument was that a CNC isn't practical to set up and use for a one off or for environments outside of production and that simply isn't true.

Justifying the cost for a home shop or a maintenance environment is a whole nother ballgame, but given the opportunity, I'll go with the CNC any time it's available over the manual.

Most of the time when I hear people bag on CNCs for being slow to set up or "not worth it for a one off" what that really means is THEY aren't good enough on a CNC to make it worth it or fast to set up.

I have both in my shop and yeah, the manual machines for sure have their place, but the CNC wins almost every time.

 

[NDJ]

Obsolete for production use is one thing.

Still very desirable for home shop/hobby/custom is a very different thing. In my world, smaller shapers, horizontal mills, jig borers, stick welders, Sun distributor machines, et al, still sell quickly.

OTOH, I just saw a mechanically mint Haas CNC turret mill sell for scrap price because the software and circuit boards were no longer being supported. The electronics would no longer send commands and there is no way to operate it manually. Result is a 75-year-old Bridgeport mill is worth more than a 25-year-old CNC machine.

jack vines

This is what happens to all older CNC machines. I have seen this on a mid 90's production big name japanese mill. Older Yasnac control. You can call in the CNC tech and he may spend a few days at $1000 a day trying to find the problem. Problem turned out to be a short in the coolant pump, Which was not available to buy anywhere.
Meanwhile the older than dirt bridgeport still runs.....

 

[BreeStephany]

I don't disagree with the above generally, but sometimes the exception proves the rule.

Today, my buddy who's shop I work out of sometimes, is welding on a bridge today with his shop-truck engine driven Miller welder. He will be dangling his long leads over the railing and welding reinforcing gussets on the beams. We cut the 1/4" (maybe 5/16") 6"x6" L-angle, 6 @ 26" and 12 @ 14". That is a lot of weld on a structure that doesn't lend itself to a tent to exclude a breeze.

Engine driven stick still has a place, but that place keeps getting smaller!

Engine driven welders still have their place, especially in cases where readily available power is generally unavailable or not conveniently close... easier to drag leads than pull out a generator and welder that you have to put away at the end of the day versus just rolling up leads.

 

[unslow1]

RIP H96B

Is that the one that everyone was breaking?

 

[dr_clyde]

This is what happens to all older CNC machines. I have seen this on a mid 90's production big name japanese mill. Older Yasnac control. You can call in the CNC tech and he may spend a few days at $1000 a day trying to find the problem. Problem turned out to be a short in the coolant pump, Which was not available to buy anywhere.
Meanwhile the older than dirt bridgeport still runs.....

That's not really comparing apples to oranges though.

The bridgeport is a fantastic machine and one belongs in every machine shop, but in no way does a bridgeport have the same capacity as a machining center.

Repairing old iron can get expensive, but it's still cheaper than buying new iron. When they scrapped out that big japanese machine did they replace it with another similar type machine or did they go, nah, we got a bridgeport in the corner, we don't need that big Mazak?

It's like scrapping a car and not replacing it because you have a bicycle.

The other thing to consider is that when that machine is old enough to justify scrapping it has paid for itself and its replacement many, many times over. Tools have a useful life and when it costs more to maintain it that to replace it, replace it.

 

[engineer2]

I've known people giving away distributor testers, Sun machines and brakes lathes over the last few years. Often having difficulty getting rid of them for free.

That's surprising news. Distributor testers used to go for thousands of dollars in working condition. Is that no longer true? Are the old farts dying off?

 

[Firebrick43]

Probably should let the pipeliners know that. I don't think they got the message.

They are using pulsed mig with automated tracks on many pipelines now and have for some time. They place portable sheds or tents and use dual shield wire many times.

https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en/...hanized-Welding-Equipment/Portable-Mechanized