Unusual structure

[billconner]

Four human-size stories or four chicken-size stories?

I didn't measure but I'd say about 6'-4' to clear under 12' beams upon which sit 12" joists.

Pictures from Zillow of house and barn exterior, and barn 3rd and 4th floor. Barn - by pacing - is approx 75 x 35. I will look at removing third floor (second framed) to make double height main floor (second, street level), and perhaps remove ceiling above top floor. No idea if that is possible but also only focusing on making house habitable for son and family.

 

[firebirdparts]

Whoever built that barn wasn't fooling around.

 

[Dumber than lumber]

Hey, I've got an idea. Strip the 2nd floor wall and build your new support structure inside that wall. Tie your cables to that and then cover it up.

I can’t see how that would solve the playroom-in-the-attic objective.

 

[Dumber than lumber]

Four human-size stories or four chicken-size stories?

Remember now, “chicken-sized” is not a unit-of-measure on which everyone agrees. For example, there is Chicken Little; Chicken Sh!t; ChickenFried Steak.
They are a big family and go back a long, long time.

 

[billconner]

Whoever built that barn wasn't fooling around.

I think it was the barn that first caught my eye. What really sealed it is this is a 100+ acre farm that was deeded to a land trust, and they cut 2 acres - minimum - with all the buildings on it - just about dead center of the 100+. Woods and some fields and a nice pond that will never see other than a trail and maybe a small parking area for trail users. Blue is preserve, yellow is lot with house, barn, and other out buildings. Barn is on west side of dirt road.

 

[billconner]

Hey, I've got an idea. Strip the 2nd floor wall and build your new support structure inside that wall. Tie your cables to that and then cover it up.

That occurred to me. Make that wall a truss. Might be you could strip plaster and just attach plywood to both sides - a big "box beam" - but still problem of supporting second floor joists. The structure seems less the problem than holding it all in place while doing it. The span in the living room is 13'-5" and its supporting approx 170 sf of second floor and same of attic floor. Possible a triple 11" lvl would do it but more likely 14" - or may 6 or 8" steel.

Not tossing idea of doing it in the second floor wall, but sure to require temporary walls both sides both floors.

And how do you notify people in the future not to cut an opening in that wall?

I'll know a lot more after spending a day in the house as the owner, not just as the buyer, next week.

 

[whateg01]

Remember now, “chicken-sized” is not a unit-of-measure on which everyone agrees. For example, there is Chicken Little; Chicken Sh!t; ChickenFried Steak.
They are a big family and go back a long, long time.

Americans will use any form of measurement to avoid the metric system!

 

[PCustoms]

Americans will use any form of measurement to avoid the metric system!

Idk, seems like a chicken nugget, chicken strips, turkey leg system would be very intuitive to a large portion of the country

 

[whateg01]

Idk, seems like a chicken nugget, chicken strips, turkey leg system would be very intuitive to a large portion of the country

My son would argue that it could be broken down further into braums chicken strips, Freddy's chicken strips, etc

 

[PCustoms]

My son would argue that it could be broken down further into braums chicken strips, Freddy's chicken strips, etc

You're making my point...

Don't forget the dichotomy within the dino nuggets

 

[firebirdparts]

That occurred to me. Make that wall a truss. Might be you could strip plaster and just attach plywood to both sides - a big "box beam" - but still problem of supporting second floor joists. The structure seems less the problem than holding it all in place while doing it. The span in the living room is 13'-5" and its supporting approx 170 sf of second floor and same of attic floor. Possible a triple 11" lvl would do it but more likely 14" - or may 6 or 8" steel.

Not tossing idea of doing it in the second floor wall, but sure to require temporary walls both sides both floors.

And how do you notify people in the future not to cut an opening in that wall?

I'll know a lot more after spending a day in the house as the owner, not just as the buyer, next week.

Absolutely. Plywood is all you need to stiffen it, but you'll need some blocking to pick up the load with the cables. That's important. If you were doing this on purpose you might not choose cables but they're there.

The cables are supporting a point. You only need points of temporary support where you have a cable. The 2nd floor wall doesn't require added support for the third floor. The 2nd floor wall is plenty strong in compression

 

[billconner]

So back at building, a short look yesterday but plan to be there most of today.

Lots of oddities, but what affects this issue is that first floor framing runs parallel with ridge, second floor and attic floor (rafter ties) naturally run perpendicular to ridge. So I don't know what if anything beam in attic and cables replaced. Thinking to remove some second floor wall - it happens to be paneling like wainscot panels - and see what we can see. Trying to save lv rm ceiling but could bore a hole and scope it.

Curious number of thin walls - like maybe framed with two by flat - I think including the wall with cables.

Temporarily supporting the floors and rebuilding that wall with a beam on it might be a option. Remove the wall, set a lvl on the floor, maybe replace cables and eye bolts with all thread, and build wall on top of it. It's just supporting the floor from a beam over rather than under the joists that is odd.

Hopefully sketches and photos to post tomorrow.

 

[firebirdparts]

That is interesting (and weird about the thin walls).

We've been forced to make a lot of assumptions in this thread. If we are supporting the 2nd floor from "itself" it doesn't matter what the first floor is doing except at two spots; what is under the ends of the wall/beam?

 

[mike93lx]

Curious number of thin walls - like maybe framed with two by flat - I think including the wall with cables.

I lived in a early 50's ranch that had 2x3 interior walls. Just partitions, no load bearing at all.

 

[Old Man Roger]

I lived in an early 50's ranch that had 2x3 interior walls. Just partitions, no load bearing at all.

That’s a mobile home.

 

[mike93lx]

That’s a mobile home.

I assure you, it wasn't mobile, but if I turned off the sump pumps (3!) and put a sail on the roof, I could have taken it for a ride

 

[billconner]

I was in house Sunday but haven't had a minute to look at photos or do a sketch.

The second floor appears to be 2x8 spanning 23 or 24' over living room. Cut a hole in ceiling to see what wire rope was attached to. It's simply wrapped around a 2x6 that is flat and notched into 2x8s. Seems like a terrible idea - notching the bottom of the long joists dead center.

Absolutly no sign of there ever having been a wall on first floor under this. No says anywhere. I'd guess the cables are from the 1950s. Have to decide if we live with it and skip ever finishing the attic.

Wire rope is 5/16" 1x7 galvanized with clips on backwards.

 

[billconner]

The beam in the attic is supported on bearing walls at each end.

 

[egdede]

That’s a mobile home.

Really just a 'curtain wall'. Could be in a mobile home, a manufactured home or a stick built home. Can be framed in 2x3 or 2x4 (or even 2x6 I guess).

The beam in the attic is supported on bearing walls at each end.

That sounds correct, and I was going to ask about that (reading through the thread). But I'm now wondering why there are cables at all... I clearly didn't understand the pictures as well as I thought I did : )

 

[Old Man Roger]

But I'm now wondering why there are cables at all

Maybe it was an afterthought?

 

[billconner]

But I'm now wondering why there are cables at all

It's a good question. Clearly added well after initial construction - 1910 house, cables added in 50s or early 60s. I suspect second floor sagged - 2x8s spanning 23-4" - and this was their fix. Original wood lath and plaster appears to be in place on all walls and ceilings. Some covered with 3/8 gwb and some with paneling.

 

[Old Man Roger]

Seems like a beam would cure it.

 

[carlaisle]

If I wanted the attic space bad enough, converting a portion of the wall (or the entire thing) into a truss is probably the path I'd take. Could also replace part of the top of the wall with some LVLs and suspend what's beneath it or put the LVLs on the bottom and have everything above bear on them - just depends on what is most convenient in that structure. Somewhat invasive either way, but really not too bad. If that's the worst surprise the house has to offer you've come out great.

 

[billconner]

A beam and rebuilt 2nd floor wall is viable. I have considered a beam under first floor ceiling and maybe "coffering" it.

The beam in second floor wall does present the unusual challenge of attaching the joists so they "hang" from it. I guess cable is possible . A steel "strap" around the flat 2x6 - every joist or every other - might work. A vertical all thread to a bracket attached to joist.

 

[Old Man Roger]

I’m confused.lol I assume the rig in the attic is to keep the attic floor/second story ceiling from sagging? Therefore wouldn’t a beam in the second story ceiling keep both the attic floor and the second story ceiling from sagging?

 

[billconner]

I’m confused.lol I assume the rig in the attic is to keep the attic floor/second story ceiling from sagging? Therefore wouldn’t a beam in the second story ceiling keep both the attic floor and the second story ceiling from sagging?

Sorry I haven't been able to sketch and about to take off for 9 day canoe trip, so behind. Cables wrap around 2x6 flat under 1st flr ceiling/2nd floor floor joists, through bearing wall which supports 2nd floor ceiling/attic floor joists. I'll try to sketch before I head out.

 

[Old Man Roger]

Sorry I haven't been able to sketch and about to take off for 9 day canoe trip, so behind. Cables wrap around 2x6 flat under 1st flr ceiling/2nd floor floor joists, through bearing wall which supports 2nd floor ceiling/attic floor joists. I'll try to sketch before I head out.

Ahh, I misunderstood.

 

[egdede]

I've looked at the pictures on my laptop (instead of my phone), and I still can't understand what they did. I am not an engineer, but I have framed according to plans. I have also just framed away without blueprints or plans : ) When the OP gets back from his trip, hopefully he can sketch things out (because now I am curious : )

 

[firebirdparts]

Well, I guess I have said what I need to say. The solution is now obvious.

that was built by a pretty smart person.

 

[Old Man Roger]

I've looked at the pictures on my laptop (instead of my phone), and I still can't understand what they did. I am not an engineer, but I have framed according to plans. I have also just framed away without blueprints or plans : ) When the OP gets back from his trip, hopefully he can sketch things out (because now I am curious : )

I think the cables start in the attic, run down through the floor and through a wall on the second floor, they then wrap around the floor joist on the second floor. “I think” I originally thought they just wrapped around the floor joist of the attic.

 

[billconner]

I think the cables start in the attic, run down through the floor and through a wall on the second floor, they then wrap around the floor joist on the second floor. “I think” I originally thought they just wrapped around the floor joist of the attic.

Yes. Look at the two attic photos that depict a truss like structure in the attic, though pretty sure the structure is all the beam on attic floor. Eyebolts through "top chord" with cable attached, down through wall, and wrapped around 2x6 under 2nd floor joists.

 

[Old Man Roger]

Yes. Look at the two attic photos that depict a truss like structure in the attic, though pretty sure the structure is all the beam on attic floor. Eyebolts through "top chord" with cable attached, down through wall, and wrapped around 2x6 under 2nd floor joists.

Ok now I get it. If you’re still gonna have a wall on the second floor than a beam above a wall and cables from the beam would do the trick. If you’re removing the wall then you need a beam under each floor you want to support.

Think of it this way, see how the beam in the attic sticks up above the floor? Imagine a steel beam, but instead of it sticking up above the floor, it would be below the ceiling on the second floor. Any beam would need to be supported on each end obviously.

 

[Old Man Roger]

Like others have mentioned, you could use flat straps, threaded rod, ect ect.