American Locomotive
Well-known member
6 points don't always work everywhere in the real world. Especially when you need a certain amount of torque in a certain amount of space.
Why do Germans love Torx so much?
- Thread starter noahwins
- Start date
You think torx, etorx, xzn, etc are stupid? Try mortorq. Started popping up on fiat-Chrysler products a few years ago (New Jeep Cherokee seat bolts is where I first saw it).
https://phillips-screw.com/drive-system/mortorq-spiral
******* stupid
https://phillips-screw.com/drive-system/mortorq-spiral
******* stupid
Ill say the germans are awful engineers. They often try and outdo themselves really. If the part could work with 3 parts they will shove in 20 and marvel at how awesome it is they made it work with 20. BMW, Benz are a fine example of over complicated ****.
MBfreak
MEMBER EMERITUS
Because we are well taught in engineering class how to shape a mal/female coupling that for a given mass and metal quality can transfer the highest torque.
Facts are valuable.
As to opinions, Clint Eastwood was right
Ola
Facts are valuable.
As to opinions, Clint Eastwood was right
Ola
I'm afraid I have to agree here. German stuff is really nice when it works but there are multiple points of failure due to the 20 parts that do what the Japanese do with 3. Prone to breakage and more difficult to fix. A vehicle only a mechanic could love.
Then the production engineers value engineer the strong part you specified down to the weakest that will keep the MTBF as specified to save €0,05 per unit. You forgot that step.
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You are absolutely correct. The person who invented the "standard"slot head should have been shot.
Fedwrench
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Because they can 
Automotive engineers be they German, American, Korean, or Japanese don't often think about the poor working stiffs that have to work on the vehicles once sold. Think Heater core replacement on most newer vehicles for example. I always thought Germany's love affair with Torx fasteners was due to robotics and automation.
I am conditioned to having to pick a new tool periodically to deal with a new type of fastener or some type of quick connect, or linkage removal. It's just the natures of automotive work. Gone are the days when a 1/2 X 9/16 wrench could pretty much take most of a car apart. Of course 10 mm goes a long way these days.
Automotive engineers be they German, American, Korean, or Japanese don't often think about the poor working stiffs that have to work on the vehicles once sold. Think Heater core replacement on most newer vehicles for example. I always thought Germany's love affair with Torx fasteners was due to robotics and automation.
I am conditioned to having to pick a new tool periodically to deal with a new type of fastener or some type of quick connect, or linkage removal. It's just the natures of automotive work. Gone are the days when a 1/2 X 9/16 wrench could pretty much take most of a car apart. Of course 10 mm goes a long way these days.
I really like working with triple square stuff. Seems like if you can get just a few of the splines in on a triple square fastener it'll turn out without much issue. Like, less than half and it'll still bite and do the job. I'm also becoming a fan of etorx. Usable with common 12 point wrenches in a pinch, no complaints. 
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
I see few areas exposed to the elements on modern vehicles where torx is used, and a 6 point would not fit. Even the jeep solid front axle hub bolts that are 12 point could be replaced by 6, there's enough room. The OE bolt has a flange on it large enough to support a 15mm for sure. Same with rear wheel bearings, T55 torx?
There's enough room for a 22mm 6 point. Head bolts and what-not, I understand 12 point. I simply dislike fasteners which when corroded are a pain/stressful to work with. I find 6 point to be superior, followed by 12 point. IMO everything else just *****.
EDIT: Out of all of the fastener types, triple square seems generally serviceable.
logical
Well-known member
Good to get the professional perspective on here from time to time. Thanks for contributing.
I am an automotive engineer and in general the retarded are concentrated in the climate control group.
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rlitman
Well-known member
LMAO. Anyone who's ever changed a heater core knows that!
He has a point. The creation of these fasteners is:
A.) keep people other than the dealer out
B.) someone wants the create something new
Problems that arise from torx or similar fastener is when corrosion weakens them, makes the fastener seized, the size of the bit required ends up not being strong enough to remove the fastener and the tool breaks, sometimes leaving a part of it in the fastener. This seems to happen in a tight spot where now the job takes a significant amount of time and more components need to be removed.
The point of advancing technology is to make things better and easier. Torx, triple square, and other internal type bits are asinine.
I don't know if I'd use the word "awful", but I agree that they are overly complex for some, unknown to me, reason. I work on both Asian and Euro cars/bikes and I can see a completely different design theory (and differing reliability levels) in each.
I always thought Germany's love affair with Torx fasteners was due to robotics and automation.
I thought the same.
torx, allen etc has no place on high torque, corrosion prone auto application.
I got no idea why the idiots use them, they more expensive and a total **** deal with in later life repair work .
They don't even have the sense make engagement depth better to give half a chance of it working .
Add to mix lower quality fixings on new junk the issues with these fixings in automotive use just get worse .
I got no idea why the idiots use them, they more expensive and a total **** deal with in later life repair work .
They don't even have the sense make engagement depth better to give half a chance of it working .
Add to mix lower quality fixings on new junk the issues with these fixings in automotive use just get worse .
Agree. I prefer the Japanese approach to engineering cars.
Ever taken apart a BMW sunroof? Works elegantly, if everything is absolutely perfect. But as soon as one tooth on one of the 5 dozen plastic bits and such breaks, the entire goddamn thing has to be disassembled.
There was a BMW K-series bike from the 1980s that would automatically retract the kickstand when you pulled in the clutch lever. A pretty trick feature but imagine how much it added to the cost and complexity to the design.
Italian engineering concepts executed at Chrysler standards.
What could possibly go wrong?
Go to wikipedia and search for TORX.
There are a number of ADVANTAGES of Torx over allen. Once you read the descriptions you will learn to LOVE Torx.
I've had WAY TOO MANY allens strip out and learned several new curse words.
I'm not sure if the pic I (tried to) attached comes thru but the pic is self-explanatory.
Attachments
Unfortunately the cons outweigh the pro in the automotive application.
The old adage of “if it’s not broken, don’t fix it” was ignored far too long by MOST engineers. Real world application of the torx system does not work well in the long run
Handyandy23
Well-known member
This. Torx is designed because the angle of contact is much better than that of a 6 point hex. Because of that you can have a much smaller head and produce the same torque.
That's all it is. Smaller head = less material = lower cost and less weight. Even if it's a fraction of a gram or fraction of a penny, all the OEMs care about is saving weight and money.
It has nothing to do with trying to deter people from working on their own cars. And they certainly don't care about how easy it is to remove in 10 years of corrosion. They just don't care. Nobody ever bought a car new based on the types of fasteners used.
Weird.... Honda just had a recall where we installed torx bolts with a bracket for the sole purpose that the customers do not take them off... Other location for torx bolts is the drivers airbag assembly on the steering wheel... Other than that and a couple spots, it is standard hex bolts all over the vehicle.
Whoever designed this type of end link should be shot for using a allen head in there. Like a 5mm corrosion filled allen head is going to keep the end link bolt from turning so you can remove the 14 to 17mm rusted to **** bolt to get the endlink off.
TTMotorsports
Well-known member
The Allen in end of shocks is always a great one as well.
if you think that Germans are awful engineers, how come neither SU nor US could build their space programs without them? Of course, automobiles don't have to be as complex as Apollo vehicles. Btw, the chief rocket scientist for SpaceX is also a German feller.
RedneckWelder
Well-known member
Awful engineers? No. Like to get overly complex with their engineering? Yes
Luckily that comes out with the assembly so you can deal with it out in the open.
We would love to hear anecdotes about what kind of thought goes into repairability during the design process.
rustbucket5
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2015
- Messages
- 252
torx plus is my favourite, very tight fit and better torque transmission. the biggest problem i find is not torx but the fastener manufacturers who make button head fasteners, the surface area under the button head gets corroded and easily takes more torque than the given torx size tool can handle. the other problem i see is that its difficult to make the smaller sizes strong enough for repetitive use.
I want to assume the conversation was pertaining to automotive German engineers. But you do bring up something.
Ratchets and sockets drawer for the International Space Station:
anndel
Well-known member
I prefer Torx or hex (Allen) over phillips as the head is not easily stripped.
Hagatronics
Well-known member
Bellhousing bolts on a BMW e36 and similar are e torx. When you have a 3 foot extension on it the fact you have a very positive engagement that doesn't slip is reassuring when you crank it.
Now why BMW nees to use three different size e torx heads (e11, e12 and e14) on the same damn bellhousing is a good question. I think this demonstrates perfectly the sentiment that things are often "engineered to perfection" at the expense of maintainability. I'm certain there are more than a few e12 heads damaged by an e14 socket being put on it.
Now why BMW nees to use three different size e torx heads (e11, e12 and e14) on the same damn bellhousing is a good question. I think this demonstrates perfectly the sentiment that things are often "engineered to perfection" at the expense of maintainability. I'm certain there are more than a few e12 heads damaged by an e14 socket being put on it.
unfortunately torx in real world use handles no where near same torque as a hex head. Any fixing where the drive point is smaller radius than fixing has instantly lost huge mechanical leverage advantage .
If they wanted smaller heads they should use the Japan fastener standards .
Manufacturers only care about weight if it saving them money. lack of composite panels and alloy parts is good proof they only interested in scraping every cent profit possible in the modern turd they call a vehicle .
Whoever designed this type of end link should be shot for using a allen head in there. Like a 5mm corrosion filled allen head is going to keep the end link bolt from turning so you can remove the 14 to 17mm rusted to **** bolt to get the endlink off.
Yep, totally useless, not even deep enough for good engagement
Use of allen and torx on brake and suspension fittings unless genuine access issue is bad engineering choice full stop .
Notgrownup
Well-known member
I stripped 3 Phillips screws yesterday, I hate Phillips, Torx or Robertson heads are way better IMHO.
I have a pretty decent assortment of Torx everything for my Harley Davidson.
I have a pretty decent assortment of Torx everything for my Harley Davidson.
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If the purpose of torx fasteners is to save weight and money with a smaller head, why does a socket head or button head cap screw have the same size head whether it's hex drive or torx drive?
Maybe it's just a different approach but when I design something new, using the same fastener everywhere is closer to "perfection" than using three different sizes.
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Super Mech
Well-known member
Whoever designed this type of end link should be shot for using a allen head in there. Like a 5mm corrosion filled allen head is going to keep the end link bolt from turning so you can remove the 14 to 17mm rusted to **** bolt to get the endlink off.
That 5mm allen head is there for one time new installation only use.
logical
Well-known member
I work on larger Euro Trucks. Mostly around transmissions and engines. In my opinion the situation is a joke. Their hex sizes are all over the place and you can find all possible sizes on the same engine + I and E-torx.
I think they should just throw in the towel and ask the Japanese to send over some engineers to explain the JIS standard - at least for 6mm + fasteners.
I think they should just throw in the towel and ask the Japanese to send over some engineers to explain the JIS standard - at least for 6mm + fasteners.
So how does one remove them without destroying them then? They shouldn't be a one time use part.
Sometimes I get lucky and buzz it off with an impact...other times it's destroy the boot, vise grips, and pray....1 in maybe 10 times I actually can manage to remove it with the allen head to secure the bolt from spinning.
And usually replace with Moog which has wrench flats.