Why do Germans love Torx so much?
- Thread starter noahwins
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bwringer
Well-known member
This right there. A button-head torx is 100% doomed to fail when it's an M10 suspension fastener. Absolutely asinine engineering.
I'd like all the manufacturers to stop inventing or using stupid new fasteners. We have PLENTY already. And while we're at it, can we outlaw one-way plastic clips and fasteners designed to break and fall apart when disassembled?
American Locomotive
Well-known member
The "real world" isn't just rusty bolts underneath a car. I've worked in industry where fastener head sizes were a huge constraint. Often these fasteners were grade 12.9 bolts that required a lot of torque for their size. Socket hex head cap screws literally could not handle the torque in the size given, so they all use Torx Plus fasteners.
Torx don't slip like slotted fitments and don't strip out like hex do because of the way the load is distributed between the tool and item. In addition they have a lower height than hex heads so are useful in many applications like bicycle and motorcycle disc brake rotors. Cam cover bolts on MV Agusta motorcycles are hex head and often strip out resulting in having to remove the stripped bolt. Some people are replacing them with Torx bolts to avoid this.
Often as the Hex head is stripping out the guys will smack a Torx bit in there to get the leverage to get the bolt out.
If there is a decent whinge it should having everyone use metric as a starting point.....
Often as the Hex head is stripping out the guys will smack a Torx bit in there to get the leverage to get the bolt out.
If there is a decent whinge it should having everyone use metric as a starting point.....
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yes torx is better than hex socket but it not close to standard hex bolt head for torque handling.
with good tool you always got enough potential break the fastener, with socket heads regardless of drive type the tool or drive fail first, I've experienced most of them on agricultural machinery and automotive for many years and only time they should be used is if head diameter/socket clearance/access dictates it the best choice, mostly these fasteners are a poor choice ...
Sine Swept
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We can blame the German's for some things, but I second this point:
Torx fasteners and keys were developed by an American tool manufacturing company called Camcar Textron in 1967.
End links: **** Toyota how many pairs must I put into my own car! I've resorted to filling the allen socket with grease, but really who am I kidding?
If these are seat bolts, better climb underneath and steel brush / penetrant the **** out of them, then clean out the fastener with a pick / vacuum. Then proceed to break bits or at least damage them.
Could we at least use a Torx Plus?
Torx fasteners and keys were developed by an American tool manufacturing company called Camcar Textron in 1967.
End links: **** Toyota how many pairs must I put into my own car! I've resorted to filling the allen socket with grease, but really who am I kidding?
If these are seat bolts, better climb underneath and steel brush / penetrant the **** out of them, then clean out the fastener with a pick / vacuum. Then proceed to break bits or at least damage them.
Could we at least use a Torx Plus?
98ssuck
Well-known member
I’d happily use Allen, torx, etorx, xzn or whatever else they want to try. But for fcuks sakes cut out half the sizes. Get rid of all of the odd number torxs. A t25 and a t27. If a t20 fastener won’t work go up to a t30.
Robertson has 4 sizes that will cover 90% of your screwing needs below1/4” thread. No magnetic bits needed. I don’t know how Americans use Phillips for new construction. The suicide rates on jobsites must be atrocious.
Robertson has 4 sizes that will cover 90% of your screwing needs below1/4” thread. No magnetic bits needed. I don’t know how Americans use Phillips for new construction. The suicide rates on jobsites must be atrocious.
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Here it is not Imperial, we call our version Standard.
redwrench60
Well-known member
It’s just what we learned on. People here tend to think and visualize in inches and fractions of inches. If a customer asks me how much brake pad lining their car has left and I reply, about 3/8 of an inch I get an approving nod. If I reply, about 10MM I get a blank stare.
Notgrownup
Well-known member
I grew up in Canada and started life in Imperial sizing then switching everything to Metric then at 26 I moved to the USA and switched again.. I am now pretty comfortable with both but Metric is so much more simple.
Most people would look at you with a blank stare if you told them something was a meter long, but say a foot long and people understand. Its ingrained, they raised multiple generations and taught them in standard. Meanwhile everyone else went to metric and we refused (mostly).
Handyandy23
Well-known member
If by "real world" you mean rusty fasteners, manufacturers don't care about that. They design cars for ease of manufacturing in the plant, not with anyone else in mind that might take it apart down the road.
And yes, obviously weight savings can only go as far as cost will take it. Nobody is going to buy a Toyota Camry that's made of carbon fiber for $200k. Weight savings is partially about saving money, but it's mostly about lowering MPG in relation to the competition.
A torx compared to a hex head of the same size is capable of higher torque. There is more contact surface with the bit, and at a more direct angle. So a smaller torx head bolt can be used in place of a hex bolt.
AldeanFan
Well-known member
There should be a rule that you’re only allowed a limited number of sizes and types of fasteners on a project.
I’m working on my ‘83 Mustang which was build during the change to metric.
I’ve probably used every wrench and socket I own on this project.
“Common” on the Mustang is:
7mm, 11mm, 15mm, 17mm, 18mm, 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, 5/8, 11/16, 3/4, 13/16, 15/16,
Torx and Phillips.
The brake caliber bolts and the rear shock mounts are torx.
There are brake lines that are inverted flare on one end and bubble flare on the other.
The bell housing bolts are 5/8 head and the transmission to bell housing bolts are 15mm head. The driveshaft bolts I can only get with a 12point 12mm wrench.
You have to really pay attention and not assume something is metric or not, very easy to mistake a 9/16 for 15mm and round it off.
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I’m working on my ‘83 Mustang which was build during the change to metric.
I’ve probably used every wrench and socket I own on this project.
“Common” on the Mustang is:
7mm, 11mm, 15mm, 17mm, 18mm, 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, 5/8, 11/16, 3/4, 13/16, 15/16,
Torx and Phillips.
The brake caliber bolts and the rear shock mounts are torx.
There are brake lines that are inverted flare on one end and bubble flare on the other.
The bell housing bolts are 5/8 head and the transmission to bell housing bolts are 15mm head. The driveshaft bolts I can only get with a 12point 12mm wrench.
You have to really pay attention and not assume something is metric or not, very easy to mistake a 9/16 for 15mm and round it off.
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Composite doesn't have to be expensive carbon fibre, look at the smart car for great use of GRP panels.
Plenty manufacturers could improve weight and mpg but seems only incentive is profit and meeting emission standards figures any bent way possible we making no real progress .
Part of design is on repair but unfortunately less so in the throw away society of modern madness .
All socket type drive is at a loss as it can never have same mechanical leverage advantage of standard hex bolt on same fixing sizes .
On machine screws, screws etc then torx useful in lower torque scenarios and way better than allen and pozi etc, on anything high torque and large it potential for trouble ...
It takes very little paint, dirt, corrosion, damage make torx fittings look not such a great idea .
I deal with them on farm machinery and it really not environment for that style of drive .
See how many socket head bolts you can shear off vs standard hex for real world test of what can apply most torque .
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Handyandy23
Well-known member
THIS is why I love Miata’s.
8,10,12,14,16 mm wrenches and a couple of JIS or Phillips screwdrivers and you can take the car completely apart.
My hat is off to you for your persistence in using the right wrench of your varied fasteners.
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8,10,12,14,16 mm wrenches and a couple of JIS or Phillips screwdrivers and you can take the car completely apart.
My hat is off to you for your persistence in using the right wrench of your varied fasteners.
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I'm not sure I'm following what you're saying, but you can't use a smaller (thread size) bolt just because the drive can handle more torque.
Mechanical Noise
Well-known member
In Europe, there used to be a hodgepodge of local standards for weights and measures. It took Napoleon to straighten all that out.
The US has always had the same standardized weights and measures no matter where. If the foot or the pound were different in New York or Philadelphia or Charlotte then there would have been alot of political pressure for a standard everyone could agree on. By the way, the US standards aren't necessarily the same as Imperial standards.
There was a serious attempt at metrification in the US in the 70s. Calculators and computers took some of the wind out of the sails on that one. And there were some clumsy, ill considered attempts like the occasional dual speed limit signs which would display something like 30 mph and 48.2 km ph back when most people had only a mph speedo, making the changeover thing seem over complicated and confusing.
American Locomotive
Well-known member
A standard hex head bolt is the exact inverse of a hex head socket head screw. A Torx T30 is only .221" across, but will support the same torque a 10mm hex head, which is .393" across. A 10mm hex head may be more "fault tolerant" if it becomes rusty or damaged, however.
10 years later on my truck (93 f150) and it’s no better. Engine and rear end are standard, but intake and body and transmission are metric. Ludicrous.
Handyandy23
Well-known member
I agree, I'm just saying if you have a bolt diameter "x" being fastened to a certain torque, then the torx head required will be smaller than the hex head equivalent.
^This!
Makes sense, however, in the realm of standard fasteners, you're only going to actually get a smaller head by going to a smaller thread size. Unless you want to spec custom fasteners, weight and material savings are not a reason to choose torx instead of hex.
Sine Swept
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I've seen plenty of American built vehicles that use Torx fasteners, where the fastener tends to corrode in the elements. If it was a hex fastener at least I could put an impact on it, but with torx there is no chance in hell unless I can clean up all the threads + heat.
Whatever's cheap and will cause the most hassle later on, engineer it into the ________.
Whatever's cheap and will cause the most hassle later on, engineer it into the ________.
techieman33
Well-known member
My 2000 Mountaineer is the same. It has the 302 so the drivetrain is mostly standard with a little metric mixed in. Then the rest is mostly metric, but you find some standard mixed in at times.
GirchyGirchy
Well-known member
Tighten it with an impact until it shears.
FakeNewsRealHP
Well-known member
What about the Loctec Arnold fasteners in the newer GM products. A lot of PCV hoses have tamper proof connections requiring you to cut them and the pcv valves in everything have these fasteners where you cut a slot in them to remove with a flathead and use this bit to tighten... moronic
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Is it possible the situation is as follows. X size fastener of grade 12.9 requires torque Y. You can select standard (meaning outside) hex head of size 10mm or I-Torx T30. Both support torque Y. T30 is smaller and everyone in the engineering department is happy with it.
However the 10mm head can actually take a lot more torque than T30, it just happened to be the head size of the standard fastener and isn't the limiting factor, the fastener is!?
There must be a reason that out of 10 tool failures in our shop probably 8 or 9 are Torx bits.
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
Exactly - It seems the ultimate torque a torx head is capable of transmitting, is the removal spec for a new/clean fastener. Rust arrives and that worthless 1/8 inch deep contact area blows out. Torx is almost universally smaller than a comparable hex/allen size for a given torque level. That's the reason the designers love it and the people who deal with it loathe it.
Much like e-torx, half of the torx head fastener is wasted space which doesn't allow for driving force, just "guiding" the tool onto the contact area. Imagine a shallow socket where 50% of the sides were replaced by the lead-in taper. Triple square is mostly all contact space, I can consider it the least reprehensible. In my mind allen heads are superior to torx, at least there's some meat for the bit to grab against.
Torx is a perfect example of something that's perfect on paper, and ***** *** in the real world. Is it better than Phillips? Sure, Phillips is straight garbage too. Torx could potentially be made palatable by removing the excessive taper at the opening, and making the engagement area twice as deep.
Much like e-torx, half of the torx head fastener is wasted space which doesn't allow for driving force, just "guiding" the tool onto the contact area. Imagine a shallow socket where 50% of the sides were replaced by the lead-in taper. Triple square is mostly all contact space, I can consider it the least reprehensible. In my mind allen heads are superior to torx, at least there's some meat for the bit to grab against.
Torx is a perfect example of something that's perfect on paper, and ***** *** in the real world. Is it better than Phillips? Sure, Phillips is straight garbage too. Torx could potentially be made palatable by removing the excessive taper at the opening, and making the engagement area twice as deep.
You need look at it in real use as those figures don't hold true in a real world test .
a same diameter bolt shank both of same grade and one standard hex bolt head and one torx socket head and the standard hex bolt will shear fastener no issue and no drive or tool failure, torx will fail at tool or drive as can not support the same torque due to leverage disadvantage of point of load (on same size fixing the socket is always disadvantaged at point of load on the fixing).
External torx technically better but so easily compromised with damage it a poor choice unless genuine design criteria prevents other options being used .
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Yes because the drive size is always smaller for the same size of fixing and load on the tool is high due to load point on fastener not having same mechanical advantage of a standard hex head on same shank size fitting .
knobby
Well-known member
My favorite "feature" of the torx design is the flat front.
The flat front facilitates welding a conventional hex nut onto the stripped out remains of the awesome torx fastener after someone tried removing one that was a little snug.
If there is something like karma the engineering team that chose to put those foul things on jeeps should have to wrench on jeeps in the rust belt for eternity.
The flat front facilitates welding a conventional hex nut onto the stripped out remains of the awesome torx fastener after someone tried removing one that was a little snug.
If there is something like karma the engineering team that chose to put those foul things on jeeps should have to wrench on jeeps in the rust belt for eternity.
hahaha lol .
American Locomotive
Well-known member
It holds true in a real-world applications. It's literally why a grade 12.9 bolt that requires a 10mm hex head can get by with a much, much smaller Torx T30 to achieve proper torque.
The whole point of Torx is that it allows you to achieve much higher torque than an equivalent size hex-head fastener before the fastener. This allows you to use bolts with smaller heads in locations and applications where space is a premium, or it's otherwise impossible to use a hex head fastener.
Like I said, I've worked with Torx "in the real world". The "real world" is not always a rust bucket car from the North.
It does not allow much higher torque as size of torx to the fitting is never large enough to get close to hex head torque values on same shank size fitting .
Even if torx fitting does not deform the tools normally twist or break in high torque scenarios .
12 point or jis head sizing is way better compact bolt head drive option than torx .
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American Locomotive
Well-known member
You're not getting my point. Torx allows much higher torque to be applied for a given head size of fastener. "Shank" size is completely and utterly irrelevant here - we're talking about the head size.
12 point and JIS head sizes are still much larger per given maximum fastening torque compared to Torx.
+1. also torx seems to hold bolts more securely in the socket/driver than a standard wrench does.
as for corrosion, I did a trans swap on a '87 bmw - auto to manual. zero issues with fasteners. between their 60s cars that required active oil leaks to prevent rust, they really figured out corrosion prevention in the 80s. big 3 could learn something from them there.
I ain't scared of no torx bolts. ones that give me pause are the rear 2 spark plugs on a v8/v10. better not drop the plug while you're disconnecting extensions to pull it out.
Because they can
Automotive engineers be they German, American, Korean, or Japanese don't often think about the poor working stiffs that have to work on the vehicles once sold. Think Heater core replacement on most newer vehicles for example. I always thought Germany's love affair with Torx fasteners was due to robotics and automation.
I am conditioned to having to pick a new tool periodically to deal with a new type of fastener or some type of quick connect, or linkage removal. It's just the natures of automotive work. Gone are the days when a 1/2 X 9/16 wrench could pretty much take most of a car apart. Of course 10 mm goes a long way these days.
The germans seem to do a pretty decent job - i've helped friends with subaru work and am always amazed at how many more fasteners I have to remove to get to an oil filter on a subaru than a bmw. I'd never needed trim tools to do an oil change before I touched a WRX.
when I was a younger, our ford explorer's heater valve failed open. cheap part, with 8+ hours labor to change it. the dash had to come out so we just put a ball valve under the hood instead.
the place I hate allen/torx the most? brake rotor retention bolts. seems the quick-fix shops LOVE to lean on those and round them off/snap them off inside. HAND TIGHT! it's only there to hold it lined up while you put the wheel on, not to hold the car together.
You not getting my point, when you look at that head size to the shank size thus the potential torque value of that fixing, the torx offers low max value and has potential weak tooling to fastener size too .
It great in right scenario and far nicer socket drive than hex and phillips but has lot of potential drive condition issues not just from salt city rust that can reduce torx socket performance/usability far too easily .
Main issue is it used in many applications that truly don't need it and also plenty room fit standard hex head or JIS fasteners .
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