Menards vise apparently HF knockoff (pics)

[dwasifar]

WHY are you buying a vice, when Irwin advertises a "Limited Lifetime Warranty" on their vices?

Example:

Heavy Duty Workshop Vises

With a 6" jaw width, the IRWIN Heavy-Duty Workshop Vise features a captured safety jaw to prevent the slide from falling out during use. At a solid 30.6 lbs., this anvil and pipe jaw incorporated table vise maneuvers quickly into position with a swivel base. An aggressive set of steel jaws...

www.irwintools.com

This should answer you better:



So yes, they're replacing it, but it'll be two weeks before I get it, and it will still be the same model vise that didn't stand up to my use case anyway.

I think Project Farm did a vice comparison earlier this year. It was interesting, or maybe entertaining at least, but I don’t recall the conclusion. I’m not in the market.

The conclusion was that he endorsed the Harbor Freight vise. Some of the other vises were better in various ways, but the HF vise performed far better than he expected at its modest price point. The PF video was actually why I went looking at HF in the first place.

Edit: Here is what he said in his conclusion. "I have to admit I'm pretty impressed with the Harbor Freight Central Forge when you consider the value price of under $80. I also like the Heuer quite a bit, but $500 is quite a bit more." Here is how he ranked the results (lower scores are better):

I broke what I think was a grey iron vice. It let go with a loud bang. There’s a tremendous amount of energy stored in a vice that’s really cranked down. I suspect that one of the primary failure modes on some of the PF vices was bent handles… the handle bende to keep the vice body from literally exploding and hurting the user / abuser.

One advantage of ductile iron over cast iron is that it yields instead of violently fracturing with energy release. Other is 60,000 PSI versus 25-30 ,000 of cast iron. As for handles bending, the original Record brand of vises made in England were designed for the handle to bend before vise limits exceeded.

Mine just let go with a quiet little thump, and popped open about an inch. Not violent at all. So I'm guessing the fracture must have been gradual instead of catastrophic.

 

[dwasifar]

This should answer you better:



So yes, they're replacing it, but it'll be two weeks before I get it, and it will still be the same model vise that didn't stand up to my use case anyway.

Looks like it's coming tomorrow, a lot earlier than they promised:



What do you think I should do? Craigslist? Use it in my downstairs workshop? Try to break it like the other, for the amusement of all?

 

[lardy1]

Downstairs workshop. Bought and paid for.

 

[dwasifar]

Downstairs workshop. Bought and paid for.

I'm thinking so. Downstairs workshop is primarily woodworking, and I do have a woodworkers vise, but it might help to have an ordinary vise down there too. And I'm probably less likely to be cranking it down hard enough to break it.

 

[Newell33]

I do quite all kinds of light duty mechanical work. Many years ago I bought a mid-grade vice that at the time was reasonably priced. It works fine, and has done everything I've asked of it. Maybe I don't use mine enough to notice a difference, but I've never understood the need to purchase a high dollar vice. Many of the older used ones that some seem to find are worn out, need paint, and have deformed teeth with gouges and nicks out of them. I'd genuinely like to hear what an old Wilton or other high dollar vice will do that the Doyle and other mid-grade vices won't. How are you using them that you'd notice a difference?

 

[may0naise]

Yost was making this style of vise long before harbor freight ever carried it. Yost model is the "D2" also Wilton has the 4550R which is the same style as well. If anything they are both probably copying those, though I don't know which company originated this style of vise.

 

[1982fxr]

I'd like to get my hands on the new gray Wilton version. Never seen one in person yet.

 

[Farmall450]

I highly doubt one US based retail store is directing a Chinese factory to copy the design of another Chinese product that is sold in a different US based retail store. lol. Most likely you are seeing two different factories version of a specific model NAME BRAND vise. They are BOTH copies of "the real thing".

I do agree, one looks much better than the other.

There's only so many ways to skin a cat.

 

[dscheidt]

I'm thinking so. Downstairs workshop is primarily woodworking, and I do have a woodworkers vise, but it might help to have an ordinary vise down there too. And I'm probably less likely to be cranking it down hard enough to break it.

If space is an issue, consider mounting it to a board (or a pair of them in a T shape) so you can mount it in the wood working vise when you need it. Certainly can't reef on the handle enough to break it, but most mechanical stuff I do in association with wood working isn't terribly heavy duty.

 

[LNKMK8]

Well that’s like picking your favorite STD.

 

[whateg01]

..., but I've never understood the need to purchase a high dollar vice. ...

Don't say that too loud. The folks on the fireball vise thread will hear you!

 

[dwasifar]

I do quite all kinds of light duty mechanical work. Many years ago I bought a mid-grade vice that at the time was reasonably priced. It works fine, and has done everything I've asked of it. Maybe I don't use mine enough to notice a difference, but I've never understood the need to purchase a high dollar vice. Many of the older used ones that some seem to find are worn out, need paint, and have deformed teeth with gouges and nicks out of them. I'd genuinely like to hear what an old Wilton or other high dollar vice will do that the Doyle and other mid-grade vices won't. How are you using them that you'd notice a difference?

That's it, in a nutshell. The HF vise should be good enough for what I need it to do, and was obtainable nearby, immediately, at a moderate price. If I were a professional machinist, welder, or mechanic, using a vise all the time for work, a higher quality vise might be a worthwhile expense. But since I'm not those things, I don't need to spend extra money (or extra time and gas) obtaining something better, in the same way that I don't need to spend five figures filling my toolboxes with Snap-On.

 

[liliysdad]

Irony is replacing a cheap broken vise with another cheap vise, while claiming that there is no reason to buy a better one.

 

[dwasifar]

Irony is replacing a cheap broken vise with another cheap vise, while claiming that there is no reason to buy a better one.

Oh FFS. You don't like modern imported vises. We get it. Don't you have anything else to do? Like a long drive to buy something?

Hey, here's something you can try, since you insist on belaboring your point. Prove that all modern imported vises are equally bad. I mean exactly equivalently bad. This is what you've been suggesting, beginning with comparing them to STDs, so you should have no trouble proving that. But if it's too broad a task, just limit yourself to proving this specific HF vise is exactly as bad as the broken Irwin.

If they're not all equally bad - if it turns out there is actually a range of quality, and some are better than others - then maybe, just maybe, some of the better ones might actually be good enough for something. Come on, you can get your head around that if you really try.

 

[liliysdad]

Oh FFS. You don't like modern imported vises. We get it. Don't you have anything else to do? Like a long drive to buy something?

Nahh, took my long drive to pick up cool stuff yesterday after work. Didn’t get any vises this time, just some Snap On and Williams goodness, and a cool old Ramsey RE8000 worm gear winch. Those are better than current import offerings, too.

I don’t have to prove anything concerning cheap import vises, they do it themselves.

 

[neophyte]

Here, have some destructive vise tests.

Multiple sizes of the same vise, from the same manufacturer don’t get tested, and the severe weight differences between different sizes of the same vise might make a huge difference in durability.

Swivel bases were the most common part to fail first.
This was usually due to the locking bar or plate that clamps to the underside of the base, but not always.
Ductile Iron is “springy” and will usually bounce back to original shape is a vise is way over tightened, which may be the reason certain vise styles are available from the same manufacturer, in practically the same design, but made in both forged and welded steel, and ductile iron versions.
Steel vises are sometimes (but not always) capable of higher clamping pressures, but if the steel vise bends, you’re just stuck with a vise that will no longer close properly, unless you want to try to forge or bend the vise back into shape.
Vise screws, or the retaining nut the screws thread into seem to be the next most likely part to break on most vises.
Higher end manufacturers usually sell the vise screws as a replacement part, so they may be intentionally made somewhat weaker to avoid other damage to the vises. (The swivel bases are also sometimes sold separately)
Plenty of the imported vises withstood a bunch of abuse.

 

[dwasifar]

I don’t have to prove anything concerning cheap import vises, they do it themselves.

Well, how convenient for you.

But just to humor us all, can you provide some evidence that they're all equally bad anyway? You know, just to show you actually have that evidence (which I'm sure you must) and aren't just dodging the question, which you would never do, right? I mean, you've put lots of effort into this hobby, surely you must have a wealth of hard data by now. If your point here is to convince people of your position, why not do it with data instead of vague aspersions? We're a practical bunch here.

In the meantime, I'll make you a deal. If I break the HF vise, I hereby pledge on the grave of my father that I will come back here, admit it, and give you your opportunity to gloat. In return, hold your gloating until the vise fails and gives you an actual concrete excuse for it, as opposed to mere guesses about a hypothetical future failure.

 

[Steve_P]

I have bought two used USA vises at a local auction in the area. There are usually at least a couple and up to a half dozen every week. It's online bidding so the only time I've invested is looking at the listings then driving the few miles to inspect them if I think it warrants that. Sometimes they go quite high. Other times they don't. There are a ton of variables in auction so I just throw my high bid out and it's over unless I win, then I have to go pick it up.

I'm surprised people don't talk much in these forums about auctions. They're a viable resource for used tools.

You need to realize that if you're in MI, as your profile says, it's not the same as in TN where I'm at, or most other non-industrial states. From posts here, rust belt states are loaded with old vises, mills, lathes, welders..... at bargain prices- supposedly. Where I'm at, the occasional vintage stuff for sale is beat to ****, rusty, worn out, and priced at 4X what it's worth; it's not even worth my time emailing to make an offer. I looked for a vintage vise years ago and gave up after 3+ months searching; I didn't even bother to make an offer on something, let alone going to look.

 

[liliysdad]

I’m in Oklahoma, one of the youngest states and far from the rust belt….and i still find solid, American iron on the secondary market. You have to look a little harder, but it’s out there.

You don’t find it on Facebook or Craigslist, it’s hiding in estate sales and garage sales and auctions.

 

[Mr_B]

Oh FFS. You don't like modern imported vises. We get it. Don't you have anything else to do? Like a long drive to buy something?

Hey, here's something you can try, since you insist on belaboring your point. Prove that all modern imported vises are equally bad. I mean exactly equivalently bad. This is what you've been suggesting, beginning with comparing them to STDs, so you should have no trouble proving that. But if it's too broad a task, just limit yourself to proving this specific HF vise is exactly as bad as the broken Irwin.

If they're not all equally bad - if it turns out there is actually a range of quality, and some are better than others - then maybe, just maybe, some of the better ones might actually be good enough for something. Come on, you can get your head around that if you really try.

You can see a range of quality just by handling them in store and doing some basic specification checks on materials and mass online along with online image visual comparisons .
Even if buying in store you ideally need be spending time drive to a minimum of 2 stores viewing some likely options prior to final purchase and you need spend some time online doing worthwhile basic research to pick the likely gems and likely best price opportunities .
While your HF vice is likely bit stronger than the Irwin and is definitely a more practically usable design it still a pretty cheap effort in terms of casting material, jaw plate proportions and general construction effort.
There are some pretty good effort modern import vises out of Taiwan, HF Doyle good example and you get a massively more durable product for very little extra coin, Yost had some pretty good proven value options via amazon for quite some time .
The reality is it might take an hour or 2 pick up some used deals but you ideally need be putting time into retail store purchases too or you going be buying 2 or 3 times rather than once ...
I own and use taiwan made and old vintage vises professionally, both have good and bad points but the old stuff is far more proportionally built for professional/hard use and longevity .
Regardless of what route you opt for the main thing is some due diligence to make most of your money buying something that matches your needs and avoid the complete garbage and complete marketing/review baloney that goes with modern retailing that hides the real better options/deals .

 

[finn]

Oh FFS. You don't like modern imported vises. We get it. Don't you have anything else to do? Like a long drive to buy something?

Hey, here's something you can try, since you insist on belaboring your point. Prove that all modern imported vises are equally bad. I mean exactly equivalently bad. This is what you've been suggesting, beginning with comparing them to STDs, so you should have no trouble proving that. But if it's too broad a task, just limit yourself to proving this specific HF vise is exactly as bad as the broken Irwin.

If they're not all equally bad - if it turns out there is actually a range of quality, and some are better than others - then maybe, just maybe, some of the better ones might actually be good enough for something. Come on, you can get your head around that if you really try.

As Clint Eastwood said “ A man’s got to know his limitations”. Maybe rephrase that to “ A man’s got to know the limitations of his vice”.

 

[Hohn]

Not everyone can justify spendy vises. HF vises are not high end but they do have a reputation of being hard to kill and punching above their class.

HF now has some Doyle-branded vises which seem to be surprisingly nice and reasonably priced for what they are. They're not a Wilton bullet, but they aren't $600 either.

 

[neophyte]

HF now has some Doyle-branded vises which seem to be surprisingly nice and reasonably priced for what they are. They're not a Wilton bullet, but they aren't $600 either.

The Doyle vises are practically a Wilton Tradesman vise.
The specs on the iron used, and the weights are almost identical.
The jaws and pipe jaws look almost identical.

The Wilton “bullet” vises, ie. The “Machinist” vises, are 60% heavier than the Tradesman vises and would be 6X+ as expensive as the Doyle vises, were the Tradesman vises are maybe 4X+ as expensive as the Doyle vises.
The Wilton Combination Machinist vises that have pipe jaws and the weight of the Machinist vises are around 10X the cost of the Doyle vises.

 

[1982fxr]

The Doyle vises are practically a Wilton Tradesman vise.
The specs on the iron used, and the weights are almost identical.
The jaws and pipe jaws look almost identical.

The Wilton “bullet” vises, ie. The “Machinist” vises, are 60% heavier than the Tradesman vises and would be 6X+ as expensive as the Doyle vises, were the Tradesman vises are maybe 4X+ as expensive as the Doyle vises.
The Wilton Combination Machinist vises that have pipe jaws and the weight of the Machinist vises are around 10X the cost of the Doyle vises.

I haven't used a Doyle but I don't put a lot of faith in spec listings for harbor freight tools. I'd like to get my hands on one though.

 

[neophyte]

I haven't used a Doyle but I don't put a lot of faith in spec listings for harbor freight tools. I'd like to get my hands on one though.

The usually have the Doyle vises on display in the stores, although sometimes maybe not?
My store does though.
The issue with vises, is if you want to have options, you mostly can’t examine the vises in person, let alone play with the vises enough to get a good feel whether the vise is worth it.

 

[Hohn]

The usually have the Doyle vises on display in the stores, although sometimes maybe not?
My store does though.
The issue with vises, is if you want to have options, you mostly can’t examine the vises in person, let alone play with the vises enough to get a good feel whether the vise is worth it.

Yeah, that's why vise buying is basically a choice between going cheap and taking a **** shoot, or paying a massive premium to avoid the risk. You might end up with a reasonably good vise if you go cheap, but you will certainly NOT get a bad one if you go expensive.
If we were all made of money, we'd just get the Fireball Tool Hardtail vise.

Drool.

 

[M635_Guy]

I haven't used a Doyle but I don't put a lot of faith in spec listings for harbor freight tools. I'd like to get my hands on one though.

When they first came out, I saw a YT vid of a guy beating the **** out of one and giving it props. I haven't been shopping for a vice, so haven't deep-dived on it.

 

[dscheidt]

I haven't used a Doyle but I don't put a lot of faith in spec listings for harbor freight tools. I'd like to get my hands on one though.

HF has improved their supplier compliance with specifications, at least on the not absolute **** lines. I expect the doyle vise is as likely to meet the specs as any other chinese made vise sold by an american company.

 

[Hohn]

I haven't been shopping for a vice, so haven't deep-dived on it.

C'mon, you know you want to shop for smoking or swearing.

 

[neophyte]

Yeah, that's why vise buying is basically a choice between going cheap and taking a **** shoot, or paying a massive premium to avoid the risk. You might end up with a reasonably good vise if you go cheap, but you will certainly NOT get a bad one if you go expensive.
If we were all made of money, we'd just get the Fireball Tool Hardtail vise.

Drool.

The Fireball vise seems nice, and the price while expensive, seems reasonable for what you get,
But the vise weighs almost 300lbs.
A lot of people don’t have a workbench that the vise could safely be mounted to.
Judging by comments on youtube videos about various vises, a lot of people probably wouldn’t be able to safely and easily move the vise onto a bench or other mount as well. (There are videos waring people about the weight of the Doyle 6.5” vise, and the Yost 760DI, both of which are under 70lbs).

 

[Hohn]

The Fireball vise seems nice, and the price while expensive, seems reasonable for what you get,
But the vise weighs almost 300lbs.
A lot of people don’t have a workbench that the vise could safely be mounted to.
Judging by comments on youtube videos about various vises, a lot of people probably wouldn’t be able to safely and easily move the vise onto a bench or other mount as well. (There are videos waring people about the weight of the Doyle 6.5” vise, and the Yost 760DI, both of which are under 70lbs).

It's true-- the cost is far from the only barrier to owning such a beast. I supposed we'd all like to have 500# anvils in the shop somewhere too. But meh, the small one will have to do.
I've menard's vise in my basement shop, but looking at the Doyle for the garage. Turns out that having a vise you don't have to take stairs to use is super important. SMH

 

[liliysdad]

There’s an awful lot of real estate between a cheap import vise and a 300lb Fireball…and a $50 vise and a $1000 option.

It’s sure easier to argue in extremes, though.

 

[dwasifar]

C'mon, you know you want to shop for smoking or swearing.

Let's not forget horndoggery.

 

[DBArt&Design]

Here in Wichita, aircraft workers drive the prices of tools to crazy levels. Deals can be found but it takes a lot of patience waiting and then you have to be on the ball to reply to the ad first.

Granted, this one is still listed, but this is typical of here.

Same where I live. People see a rusty tool and immediately think its worth a fortune. Couldn't get near those Wilton 300s here for less than double the $75.

 

[DBArt&Design]

Anyone had hands on the new Wilton version of this? The gray one...

I've got a blue Wilton version of the rotating head, 6-inch I think it is. Been a decent vise for me for 12-15 years now. Only problem is the swivel ring cracked, hence the subject of my post!

 

[seber]

Location is everything when it comes to used. When I lived in Colorado I could take my choice of a dozen farm auctions on any given weekend. Vises were common. Now in Deep East Texas auctions are non existent and used vises are priced higher than new ones. It is a low income area so every garage sale is there to make maximum profit. You can guess what that does to prices.

 

[finn]

I’m in Oklahoma, one of the youngest states and far from the rust belt….and i still find solid, American iron on the secondary market. You have to look a little harder, but it’s out there.

You don’t find it on Facebook or Craigslist, it’s hiding in estate sales and garage sales and auctions.

Who has time to waste going to estate sales?

I would rather schedule a root canal than spend my Saturday rummaging through seventy year old furniture, pots and pans and worn out garden equipment in search of a likely non existent deal on that elusive vice.

Estate sales give me the creeps. Sort of like pillaging a grave for gold rings and teeth.

 

[liliysdad]

To each their own I guess…but I’d much rather waste my time finding those non existent deals than have some Chinesium vise bolted to my bench.

Luckily for me, there are a lot of folks who feel the same way you do. Those folks are the ones who pay me hundreds for the vises I paid $75 for.

 

[liliysdad]

double tap

 

[redwrench60]

I’ve learned to value old US made vises as Liliysdad does. I’ve wrenched professionally on junk and gem my whole life and have personally broken or witnessed the death of many, many Chinese vises in a pro environment. Big ones, little ones, you pick the brand. Didn’t take photos or perform an autopsy. I know what the cause of death was. But the old Wilton Machinists and big Reeds and Morgan’s from the 60’ and 70s in the shops I’ve worked in just keep on surviving.

We have a big old Reed where I work that would make you guys sob in your pillows. We wrench, beat, torch, weld, fab, fit, wire, and cuss. That vise is in the middle of it all. It’s older than anyone that works there and nobody even knows where it came from or who got it anymore. It’s about the saddest looking old iron I’ve seen but it just..won’t..die.