Pliers; How Many Is Too Many?

[Eric Brown]

Here are pictures of my PowerGrip Tool Co. pliers. Also marked Mountainair New Mexico, Pat Pending. Appear to be patent 2361607 (Oct 31, 1944 by Charles D. Daniels. Several oddities. Mine has a broken U-shaped strap with the name Jack Rhodes in script on the one side. The patent shows springs, but I don't see or feel any. I plan on repairing this. I don't think is so rare that fixing it would hurt the value. (Correct me if you think it should be left alone).

 

[Eric Brown]

Maybe for pulling leather or upholstery?

Usually leather pliers have grooves for gripping. These are flat.

 

[Eric Brown]

Coming back to these, wondering about other pulling pliers like linesman for fish tapes, or for pulling the metal or plastic banding tape. 0.04 seems pretty thin, and don't have any linesman's here to check anyways


Also, what about holding a feeler gauge for inserting somewhere?

If you put a piece of a beverage of choice container in the jaws and squeeze, what happens. If smaller than the jaws it holds, if larger, I'm assuming no cutting or cramping too, but just thinking will my process is warming up here.

The amount of pressure these can generate I would think is greater than what you might need normally. Maybe for folding sheet metal (some sort of tab?). On E-bay there is a larger set. Note: I don't always believe what people call tools. Sometimes they call things closest to what it kind of looks like or they are using another person's description.

 

[RTM]

Note: I don't always believe what people call tools. Sometimes they call things closest to what it kind of looks like or they are using another person's description.

Agree. Never on eBay, and by extension Worth point, FBMP, reddit, etc. Even WAG from GJ get scrutinized. I go looking thru vintage catalogs, magazines, patent drawings, etc..

 

[four.cycle]

@Eric Brown -
I have no answers for you, other than to offer some images which may be of help.
That device was also produced by The Powergrip Wrench Company of Shawnee, Oklahoma.
Time frame from Mountainair to Shawnee remains a mystery.
The patent document refers to it as "PLIER WRENCH". I would hope that would be the term we use, in order we're all speaking the same language. Ebay sellers are Ebay sellers - not "tool people".

Note the specimen below (from Mountainair) is marked "PAT'D" and the oddly abbreviated "N. MEX"
The Shawnee specimen ad apparently didn't show the other side of the tool, unfortunately.
(photos: ebay)

 

[RTM]

the specimen below (from Mountainair) is marked "PAT'D" and the oddly abbreviated "N. MEX"

Searching Google patents for Mountainair New Mexico only brings up 51 results, with the first 10 being before 1950, then they jump to 1975. Think it's older than 75, but there are two pipe holding patents that may apply to the jaws maybe?

US1307505A - Pipe-handling means - Google Patents

US1529930A - Automatic pipe clamp - Google Patents

Can't dive in on my phone right now, but don't think that either is your patent holder.

 

[four.cycle]

^ you lost me there, sorry.

 

[RTM]

^ you lost me there, sorry.

Sometimes there are patents for something like a way to hold pipe (jaw design perhaps) that shows up on a tool that happens to hold the pipe the same way. The patent looks nothing like the tool, but is applicable.

Wearing gloves in the lab working only on my phone while other $hit happens in the background, prevents me from taking a dive here.

The other thought I had was that maybe he was not in mountainair when he patented the tool but moved there when he produced it.

 

[four.cycle]

^ I am stumped on this one... Mountainair, New Mexico is 600 miles away from Shawnee, Oklahoma.

And I thought Charles Daniels was down in Georgia!

I'm so confused.

 

[ararat]

Not sure about these. Marked "CCS Co". Have not seen another pair like them. They use a cam to close the jaws, giving them great power. The jaws are smooth and are 1/2" wide and 1/2" deep. When "closed", the jaws are still open and parallel, with about a .04" gap. So, were they used to crimp something or perhaps to pull sheet metal? Bend a tab?

CCS Co might be Chicago Car Seal Company who made train car seals and there are a few of their crimpers and sealers on ebay and other places online. They are different than this one and the company name is spelled out instead of abbreviated.

The design looks like it might be something that could press lead or other metal seals.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

...the name Jack Rhodes in script on the one side.

I'm thinking that's an owner's mark.

Searching Google patents for Mountainair New Mexico only brings up 51 results, with the first 10 being before 1950, then they jump to 1975. Think it's older than 75, but there are two pipe holding patents that may apply to the jaws maybe?

I don't understand why you're fishing around for possible patents issued to people in Mountainair. The patent Eric already identified is clearly his plier-wrench and the patentee lived in Mountainair. Did I miss something?

 

[RTM]

Did I miss something?

Yes, That I am reading on my phone while waiting for a process to execute, so not doing my best reading. Interesting that the N Mex vs New Mexico got missed, wonder if USPTO would have caught that.

Interesting, Charles had a second patent for a Rotary Engine, found when I change to N Mex on Google Patents.

Google Patents

Search and read the full text of patents from around the world with Google Patents, and find prior art in our index of non-patent literature.

patents.google.com

 

[four.cycle]

^ and that came from searching "N. Mex." ?

 

[four.cycle]

CCS Co might be Chicago Car Seal Company

do you have the YEAR on that ad?

 

[RTM]

^ and that came from searching "N. Mex." ?

Mountainair and “N Mex” to keep it together, only got 2 hits


“N mex” got one hundred, but when sorted by oldest, a bunch of foreign ones came first.

 

[ararat]

do you have the YEAR on that ad?

The American exporter : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

v. : 35 cm

archive.org

1877

 

[Eric Brown]

Here are pictures of my PowerGrip Tool Co. pliers. Also marked Mountainair New Mexico, Pat Pending. Appear to be patent 2361607 (Oct 31, 1944 by Charles D. Daniels. Several oddities. Mine has a broken U-shaped strap with the name Jack Rhodes in script on the one side. The patent shows springs, but I don't see or feel any. I plan on repairing this. I don't think is so rare that fixing it would hurt the value. (Correct me if you think it should be left alone).

Could not wait, I was curious. Took it apart. Mine does have a hidden spring. Next day or so will post pictures of it apart. Need to find some steel to make a new strap.

Here are pictures of my PowerGrip Tool Co. pliers. Also marked Mountainair New Mexico, Pat Pending. Appear to be patent 2361607 (Oct 31, 1944 by Charles D. Daniels. Several oddities. Mine has a broken U-shaped strap with the name Jack Rhodes in script on the one side. The patent shows springs, but I don't see or feel any. I plan on repairing this. I don't think is so rare that fixing it would hurt the value. (Correct me if you think it should be left alone).

Just got done making a new strap. Here are two pictures. The first shows it disassembled. The second together. I am using some round head rivets to hold together. These will be pulled back out and everything nickel plated this spring/summer. Found out the main pivot was a press fit. Made a new one out of 5/16" steel. Also, replaced the ball bearing.

 

[Eric Brown]

Similar to the PowerGrip, this Click Plier uses a movable pivot instead of a gear/track. Simpler construction. Made by the Click MFG. Co. Fairbury Nebraska U.S.A.. Is marked with two patents, 2325245 and 2358858. This pair are closer to the later Sep 26, 1944 patent. Both patents were by Joel Hahn with the 1944 one a refinement.

 

[ararat]

CCS Co might be Chicago Car Seal Company who made train car seals and there are a few of their crimpers and sealers on ebay and other places online. They are different than this one and the company name is spelled out instead of abbreviated.

The design looks like it might be something that could press lead or other metal seals.

Images from ebay of an obvious seal press with the same CCS Co mark.

 

[Eric Brown]

Images from ebay of an obvious seal press with the same CCS Co mark.

Thanks Ararat. Now it all makes sense.

 

[Sbusmech]

There is no such thing as too many as long as you use/need them. In the shop or garage, tool kits, house etc. If you like to collect them or a pack rat that's a different story

 

[Eric Brown]

There is no such thing as too many as long as you use/need them. In the shop or garage, tool kits, house etc. If you like to collect them or a pack rat that's a different story

I collect them so I can study them. Compare. Ask questions as to why they did that. Amazed at their ingenuity. Just bought another pair for these reasons. Will eventually, soon, sell them. I also won't hesitate to use them.

 

[Skyman]

I collect them so I can study them. Compare. Ask questions as to why they did that. Amazed at their ingenuity. Just bought another pair for these reasons. Will eventually, soon, sell them. I also won't hesitate to use them.

I too am fascinated by how things were designed, manufactured, and utilized. Tools in particular, but countless other things as well.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I collect them so I can study them. Compare. Ask questions as to why they did that. Amazed at their ingenuity. Just bought another pair for these reasons.

I too am fascinated by how things were designed, manufactured, and utilized. Tools in particular, but countless other things as well.

Rest assured that MANY of us down here share these values. I certainly do! The idea that we have to defend it is absurd.

I treat collectible service tools like any other historical artifact that deserves a high, dry preserved place of honor in our automotive culture. They have a value beyond the utilitarian, as products of a golden age of US know-how, manufacturing, and might.

And that's precisely why antique and vintage tools have a value to many people beyond the utilitarian. There is so much history in them, the "gene" (or social instinct) to save them becomes an implicit patriotic gesture. There's no reason to apologize for recognizing that. It's why American Pickers is so popular.

Many of us don't "need" the antique and vintage tools we collect from a utilitarian perspective, but as I have long argued, collectible tools have a value to collectors that transcends the utilitarian for the same reasons people collect other things.

Arne73 posted a link to an article I very much enjoyed and connected with on the Garage Sale thread this year, in Psychology Today, a blog, linked here.

Not that we need justification (okay, maybe we do at times with our better halves!), but it explains why we do what we do - scientifically. My first thought was, every person on GJ already knows all this - and we didn't have to drop $500,000 on medical school to figure it out. HAHA.

But I thought it was perfect, and short.

But if you want it even shorter...
A Psychiatrist just basically bailed us all out of the doghouse and into the bedroom again, for these reasons...
- Up to 40% of the population collects something
- The urge is scientifically natural, normal, and healthy, and they used an MRI to prove it (certain collected objects light up parts of the brain connected to our pleasure centers)
- The pleasure instigates:
* Pride in owning rare, exquisite objects
* Thrill of a bargain
* Visceral feeling holding artifacts of history
* Intellectual satisfaction (i.e., research!)
* Social networking (i.e., GJ forum)
* Organizing, arranging, and rearranging a collection shows off your taste and knowledge

The majority of the Smithsonian article did a respectful job of describing the tools as the objects of art (and historical, artifactual significance) that many of us in the hobby treat them as. On this site, where a lot of guys of the strict utilitarian persuasion tend to sneer at those of us who put them under lights and glass, it's nice to see a magazine of that caliber for an institution of that caliber give antique and vintage tools - including automotive mechanics hand tools (that is a Mack Trucks bulldog on the cover with the wrenches!) the credit they deserve as collectibles.

I know we've had this not mutually exclusive discussion before, but just to re-emphasize, this hobby has its strict utilitarians, and I'm clearly not one of them, but it also has plenty of shade tree mechanics who also like collecting vintage tools they have no intention of using.

 

[Sbusmech]

Holy moly! I didn’t think it was going to go down the rabbit holeThe OP asked how many is too many. I didn’t know it would turn into omega collector. My apologies, but I still use my old tools.

 

[four.cycle]

Everything here goes down the rabbit hole. We had vintage hand trucks yesterday. Can't wait to see what turns up tomorrow.

 

[Sbusmech]

Everything here goes down the rabbit hole. We had vintage hand trucks yesterday. Can't wait to see what turns up tomorrow.

Thank you, I didn't intend to be an jerk.

 

[ararat]

Never too many. Picked up these MAC #P-50 5" pliers at the habitat restore. No COO marks. They'll probably go in the pliers drawer since they are a different size than the rest of my pliers. They shined up pretty good.

 

[ararat]

Getting crowded

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Picked up these MAC #P-50 5" pliers

Made for MAC by J.P. Danielson. They can't be earlier than 1942 and very likely not older than October 1946, which is when Plomb Tool Co bought them out and used their factory as their exclusive in-house plant for all their various brands.

 

[cody1325]

Made for MAC by J.P. Danielson. They can't be earlier than 1942 and very likely not older than October 1946, which is when Plomb Tool Co bought them out and used their factory as their exclusive in-house plant for all their various brands.

Ah, this explains why my oldest pair of Proto pliers have the same grips.

 

[ararat]

Made for MAC by J.P. Danielson. They can't be earlier than 1942 and very likely not older than October 1946, which is when Plomb Tool Co bought them out and used their factory as their exclusive in-house plant for all their various brands.

Cool. Thanks. I thought they might have been newer, but I am glad they are from that era.

 

[Eric Brown]

Haha. I recently bumped my reading glasses up from 2.0 to 2.25 and pretty much wear them all day long now. I saw an old guy in a junk store shopping with a flashlight once. That'll be me before long.

I couldn't read the markings on my Oxwall pliers through the rust, but thought the grips were cool enough to buy them; remembering that I had a pair with similar grips at home. If I'd seen Oxwall while in the store, I probably would have saved $2 and left them there.

I just spent some time scanning eBay listings for "Vintage pliers Germany" and found a pair that share Don's branding. Bruno Will is not a brand I'd heard of.



I Googled "Bruno Will Germany Pliers" and got some hits. One of them was on the "Progress is fine" site. https://progress-is-fine.blogspot.com/2015/02/gripping-tales-harry-p-will-gmbh.html This quote is from there, "In 1918, the Bruno Will gun and tool factory was built."

It's mentioned here too, https://www.orbiswill.de/geschichte-alt?lang=en sharing the history of the company, which was eventually bought out by Knipex.

There. I learned some stuff today. No telling whether I'll remember it tomorrow though.

Tom

I have a pair of Bruno Will diagonal cutters also marked with the DRGM and Germany stamps. What makes these unusual is that they are adjustable. Can only think of two reasons for that feature. Start cutting something larger with them open and then smaller to finish. Or, ease of sharpening. They open about 90 degrees either way. So really not sure.

 

[Eric Brown]

Three German specialty pliers. From left to right, VC&Co Germany, possibly sadlers pliers. Germany, thin. Ha-----------der, 80- , Germany, spreader pliers. Watchmakers or Jewlers? Just found VC&Co was Vom Cleff about 1885 to 1926.

 

[Outlawmws]

Never too many.

Yup! Never too many!

Picked up the 7WR VG's yesterday, and the SO arc joints water pump pliers today.

 

[Outlawmws]

Eric, pretty sure the first pair with the wide flat jaws is for glass working.

 

[Eric Brown]

Eric, pretty sure the first pair with the wide flat jaws is for glass working.

These have serrated jaws, and the jaws only are about 1/16" apart when parallel. I have some for glass where the jaws are smooth and are open about 7/16" when parallel. I found a set like mine in an 1810 pattern book.

Comparing the two:

 

[Outlawmws]

Depends on what thickness of glass you are working with - I've never seen glass pliers at 7/16 - likely for plate glass.

Could they be sadlers? Maybe, but It will be leaving marks in the leather with serrated jaws...

 

[Beerhippie]

Depends on what thickness of glass you are working with - I've never seen glass pliers at 7/16 - likely for plate glass.

Could they be sadlers? Maybe, but It will be leaving marks in the leather with serrated jaws...

The part with the marks will be under the saddle or under another piece of leather.

 

[Eric Brown]

Depends on what thickness of glass you are working with - I've never seen glass pliers at 7/16 - likely for plate glass.

Could they be sadlers? Maybe, but It will be leaving marks in the leather with serrated jaws...

A few more details. My old sadlers pliers have a boxed joint. That makes me think it's pretty old. The newer ones are Red Devel, LP Smith Inc #607-8 which puts them after 1926 but before 1945.