anti seize fetish?

[skiingman]

-
Permatex® does not recommend the use of any anti-seize product on wheel studs. Many people have used anti-seize for this applications, however, there is the potential for over-torqueing and therefore, higher clamp loads and potentially dangerous bolt stretch. Because of the lubricity of anti-seize, there is a tendency to over-tighten because of the ease with which the nut will bear down on the lug. For this reason, even if you try to torque the nuts to factory specs, the clamp load may become too high depending on the type of bolt, size and manufacturer."

Written by a lawyer.

I use it sparingly on the threads of wheel studs and lug bolts. I DO NOT apply it to the conical or spherical faces of the lug or wheel. The bulk of the frictional force should be coming from that interface if everything else is working properly.

In the rust belt LOOSE lugs caused by insufficient tightening are vastly more common than broken studs caused by overtightening. The torque spec is utterly meaningless if the threads are binding/galling/etc due to loss of plating on the fasteners. Since the chances of shops replacing damaged studs that aren't completely broken are approximately zero, I'd rather have them on tight than loose.

 

[skiingman]

If you rotate the tires once or twice a year and torque the nuts properly you should have no problem getting them off again. If they're rusty/tight and you don't want to stretch to buying a tap and die, try putting a bit of valve grinding compound on the threads and run the nut in/out a few times (clean it off both before final installation)

That's just silly. If you are going to be a stickler for following specs that were written by lawyers, you need to FOLLOW them. Removing the plating with mechanical polishing renders the dry specs meaningless and necessitates replacing the fasteners if you want to do it by the book. It also makes them a whole lot more likely not to come apart in the spring.

The parts where you claim it is OK to use actually have some issues as well. For instance, installing never seize on the hats of a rotor on a passenger car may be acceptable, but may not be on a race car. The designed clamp load and coefficient between the stackup of the hub/rotor/wheel is meant to prevent shear loading of the studs/bolts.

I use it on those parts on passenger cars all the time with no ill effect, but I'm not a stickler for the book either.

 

[sberry]

There is a middle ground which is sufficient in most cases, most of the time anti seize is not needed,,, oil is,,, big leap from dry to light oil, small leap from oil to anti seize. Need enough it doesn't "stick" when rotated.

All these factors multiplied when applied with hi speed air gun, heat and pressure can cause friction weld,, hence the permanent lug nut.

 

[cryan]

I'm going to throw the fox amongst the chickens here and suggest that the statement by Permatex is wrong. It certainly goes against what I was told by another manufacturer about the dangers of anti-seize on precision torque threads. It also does not make sense. its too slippy? I was told (and I believe it to be true) that the issue of anti-seize was that the threads/grease combo act like a hydraulic pump and as such the a falsely high torque reading can be achieved leaving the bolts too loose. I would say there is far more damage done to wheel nuts in the world by metal on metal galling than by the threads being too lubricated. a light oil is the minimum that should be used unless the manufacturer states otherwise. The reason Auto Plants don't lubricate threads in factories is two fold, 1) the cost involved in someone or something actually brushing each one of the bolts used. 2) They do a roaring trade in replacement bolts and service tech hours when the threads get damaged.

 

[CJKaz]

The torque required for a bolted joint design comes from a long string of calculations, but boils down to a simple linear equation.

T = Wp x K x dn where T=torque; Wp=fastener preload; K=torque coeff; dn=diameter

The factor that changes with dry vs lubricated fasteners is the "torque coefficient" and is published for a variety of cases. Various values exist, mine are taken from a company (rhymes with GuPont) Engineering Specification (10 pages of calcs). Examples:

Dry steel fasteners: K=0.20
Lightly oiled steel: K=0.15
Cad Plated: K=0.14
Anti Seize on steel: K=0.13 (as published by Bostik for their Never Seez products)
Graphite & mineral oil: K=0.10

Using Never Seize versus dry uncoated steel, multiply the specified torque by 0.65. Note that most wheel bolts/studs are plated in some manner (cadmium in many cases).

The only issue I've personally seen is when the Anti Seize contacts the ball seats on the lugs & wheel (as mentioned above). Relative motion between these seats can cause them to deform.

A very light coating on the threads only to prevent corrosion and/or galling is all that's needed. As is the case with most Anti Seize applications, a little goes a long way.

 

[aczr2k]

Really? Where do you get your info?

People are so quick to blame engineers for everything. People who make these kind of comments don't know why things are the way they are and then instantly think they know better. There are alot of tradeoffs in a design that have to occur. Take your cost savings for example, if engineers don't think about cost savings than the common man wouldn't be able to afford to own a car. I agree that some things on cars weren't well thought out or designed well but sometimes theres a real good reason for why things are designed the way they are. I agree that some engineers don't know to turn a wrench which can be a problem but the manufacturers also aren't designing these cars so that a backyard mechanic can easily work on it 10 years from now.

Backyard mechanic? How about the dealership tech that has to tear into $500k brand new equipment because of piss poor design. I agree its not only them but the bean counters as well.

Most of the **** (agriculture & automotive & heavy trucks) I get stuck working on should have been scrapped the first day it went into production.

I went to school for engineering with 4.0 students that figured a 1/2" wrench should be used on a 1/2" bolt. Not an ounce of common sense either, the book says so, it must be right? right?

I guess after working in manufacturing, I now have the luxury of designing automation equipment, you only get one shot to get it right. Yes I engineer it, and assemble it and install it. I've made mistakes, but I haven't made thousands of the same ones over and over in production.

Just like every profession, you have to weed out the piss poor ones.

Back on topic... I'll stick to using anti seeze, then I know it will come apart if it needs to. Do I use it on everything... No of course not.... back to common sense.

 

[Inkncraig]

I use anti seize on the install of exhaust components after a repair. I also have kroil at the ready for the disassembly of such components. I only use a little white grease on the lug studs if they I know that they could give me a problem.
I have also found that a little engine oil on the fine threads of metric bolts that are going into a aluminum housing are much happier.

 

[SpiderGearsMan]

we have enough problems with junk loosening up
Why Help It Along ?

 

[durallymax]

Overtorquing is possible, but you can compensate for it. Most studs have a range of torque. YOur wheel bolt does not need to be 90.5123443223ft-lbs.

When I went through TIA certification they stressed the importance of not using it. The main issues they ran into was loose wheels. People would gob it onto the threads and/or the face of the wheels where the duals would meet and over time the anti seize would work out and operators would not retorque thus causing the wheel to loosen and fall off. Rare as well, but I haven't found a need for it in that application.

Honestly, keeping your equipment clean goes much further than slobbering anti sieze everywhere. I actually use ARP ultra torque on a lot of things because it works very good for high temps and eliminates pre-load scatter. I do use never sieze where required though, but do not use it just to use it.

 

[pilotman81]

I'm not even sure who to quote on this one. I use the stuff on all of the exhaust system stuff that I work on. Not some much inside engines or compressors...

 

[skiingman]

When I went through TIA certification they stressed the importance of not using it. The main issues they ran into was loose wheels. People would gob it onto the threads and/or the face of the wheels where the duals would meet and over time the anti seize would work out and operators would not retorque thus causing the wheel to loosen and fall off.

This post and the one above it imply that lubricant on the fastener makes it more likely to come loose. This is completely false for a bolted joint. The lug nut loosens because of cyclical relative motion when the clamping force is too low to clamp the wheel motionless with respect to the stud.

Lubricating the threads is "bad" because it increases the bolt strain and thus clamping force at a given installation torque.

Those two problems are mutually exclusive. Unless you want to argue the stud yields in use because of the increased strain, which is quite a stretch, har har.

 

[Nanashi]

I almost never use anti seize, especially on lug nuts. I just hit them with the impact till there tight. The only time a stud breaks for me is when that stud was cross threaded. When a stud is cross threaded but not broken ill use anti seize but ill work the nut on and off once or twice to get it nicely torqued. Also rusted exhaust bolts i lol at that deep green works awesome. Iv sprayed that on the ugliest bolts and seconds later i take it off with easy. There are some occasions though when it does nothing at all. But deep green works pretty damn awesome. I recall taking a down pipe off one time by spinning two if the nuts off by hand without even using a wrench. Anyway i sware by it for rusted bolts.

 

[Danglerb]

I put a light coat on the first half of the lug, nothing on the face. I also clean the threads on the lug and the lug nuts and replace any I don't like the look of.

 

[bw77]

Also rusted exhaust bolts i lol at that deep green works awesome.

Say what?

 

[mebuildit]

Here is some good reading about different thread lubricants and charts to show which ones give different torque readings.

Click HERE

 

[Steinmetz]

The torque required for a bolted joint design comes from a long string of calculations, but boils down to a simple linear equation.

T = Wp x K x dn where T=torque; Wp=fastener preload; K=torque coeff; dn=diameter

The factor that changes with dry vs lubricated fasteners is the "torque coefficient" and is published for a variety of cases. Various values exist, mine are taken from a company (rhymes with GuPont) Engineering Specification (10 pages of calcs). Examples:

Dry steel fasteners: K=0.20
Lightly oiled steel: K=0.15
Cad Plated: K=0.14
Anti Seize on steel: K=0.13 (as published by Bostik for their Never Seez products)
Graphite & mineral oil: K=0.10

Using Never Seize versus dry uncoated steel, multiply the specified torque by 0.65. Note that most wheel bolts/studs are plated in some manner (cadmium in many cases).

The only issue I've personally seen is when the Anti Seize contacts the ball seats on the lugs & wheel (as mentioned above). Relative motion between these seats can cause them to deform.

A very light coating on the threads only to prevent corrosion and/or galling is all that's needed. As is the case with most Anti Seize applications, a little goes a long way.

I was hoping that someone would finally get to this. Thank you. This is what I do for correction using products like Never Seez.

 

[kamesama980]

That's just silly. If you are going to be a stickler for following specs that were written by lawyers, you need to FOLLOW them. Removing the plating with mechanical polishing renders the dry specs meaningless and necessitates replacing the fasteners if you want to do it by the book. It also makes them a whole lot more likely not to come apart in the spring.

The parts where you claim it is OK to use actually have some issues as well. For instance, installing never seize on the hats of a rotor on a passenger car may be acceptable, but may not be on a race car. The designed clamp load and coefficient between the stackup of the hub/rotor/wheel is meant to prevent shear loading of the studs/bolts.

I use it on those parts on passenger cars all the time with no ill effect, but I'm not a stickler for the book either.

I don't specifically or wholly disagree with you on any point except that the only absolute is there are no absolutes. I follow the book when it makes sense and heresay and experience back it up.

Should have been clearer: that method of cleaning the threads A. isn't needed on clean, good condition, plated threads and B. I would only use it on rusty threads already missing the coating. Correct: at the point this would be necessary/helpful you should probably replace the stud. Having done it on my old S10 (and only on that truck) I can say that getting them off again was never a problem. even with wonderful chicago salty winters. even with open nuts and no wheel covers. (also never broke or lost a nut). Can't say I measured the Cf but they torqued up firm as opposed to being squishy and gradual like with anti-sieze.

A race car is a whole different animal for use, maintenance, and repair. If you're worried about parts on your race car rusting siezed then you have other problems. I'd tend to run a little closer to the book there on average.

As for the inner or outer face of rotors and wheel hubs, I see and agree with your point but this is where the book (engineers) and reality vary a bit wider than the main issue (AS on threads) I've seen, felt, and replaced a lot more studs from AS-related overtightening than sheering even with wheels with the wrong hub size.

 

[Wakefield]

It is a special problem when a bolt or stud is turned down into a blind threaded/tapped hole then anything down there could hydraulically stop the bolt from going. Would think that slowly torquing would allow some of the stuff to bleed back past the threads if it were fluid enough.

 

[durallymax]

This post and the one above it imply that lubricant on the fastener makes it more likely to come loose. This is completely false for a bolted joint. The lug nut loosens because of cyclical relative motion when the clamping force is too low to clamp the wheel motionless with respect to the stud.

Lubricating the threads is "bad" because it increases the bolt strain and thus clamping force at a given installation torque.

Those two problems are mutually exclusive. Unless you want to argue the stud yields in use because of the increased strain, which is quite a stretch, har har.

I think you misunderstood my post. The reason they did not want it had nothing to do with the threads or nuts, it was due to the amount that was either applied to the faces of the wheels or ended up between them due to overapplication on the studs. This would work out over time and then loosen the wheel. They did not imply that antisieze on the threads caused them to loosen up, it was more along the lines of someone torqueing the wheel with the antisieze acting as a spacer between the two flanges, then overtime it would work out and the wheels would be loose.

Also rusted exhaust bolts i lol at that deep green works awesome. Iv sprayed that on the ugliest bolts and seconds later i take it off with easy. There are some occasions though when it does nothing at all. But deep green works pretty damn awesome. I recall taking a down pipe off one time by spinning two if the nuts off by hand without even using a wrench. Anyway i sware by it for rusted bolts.

I like copper nuts versus any coating. Just took the turbo of my TDI with a 1/4" ratchet. All 8 exhaust manifold nuts broke loose with minimal effort after being there for 14 years and 270,000 miles in midwest weather.

I don't think copper nuts would work everywhere but in this application they were great.

 

[5lima30]

In the aircraft maintenance (USAF) it is used ALOT!

 

[petee_c]

I use a touch of silver coloured antiseize on lug bolts occasionally. (all 3 of our current vehicles are VAG group, so they use lug bolts instead of nuts.) The specified torque is about 90lbs IIRC. Should I back off a bit on the torque wrench? say 75-80lbs? Is 90lbft on a bolt with AS on an alloy wheel enough to damage it?

On my wife's "new" 2011 Audi q7 (imported from Newfoundland apparently), one Lug Bolt was on really tight the 1st time I worked on her car. I have a good 1/2" air impact (can remove the axle nut), wouldn't budge it. I wonder if antisieze played a role in that, or if the person who last changed the wheels was a bit overzealous with the impact gun.

 

[cheechi]

I discovered anti-seize and thread lock right around the same time. With the anti-sieze, first thing I did was buy the biggest bottle NAPA had. Then I found out you need the copper for water stuff, which I had been working on at the time, so I got the biggest bottle of that too.

I'm about halfway through both maybe at this point, my general rule is if it doesn't have locktite it gets anti seize. I go through the little bottles of thread lock so i can get a bunch and have them where one is always accessible. I would rather break off blue thread lock than rust any day. But my bottle of anti seize goes almost everywhere my sockets & wrenches go.

Only thing I take on & off that I don't use either is lugs. not much need here, maybe if it was much colder for longer like back in PA.

 

[rockchucker]

THIS is the right answer. If you are going to use Anti-Seize you need to adjust your Torque accordingly. Sorry but there is no way anyone can fight this.

The torque required for a bolted joint design comes from a long string of calculations, but boils down to a simple linear equation.

T = Wp x K x dn where T=torque; Wp=fastener preload; K=torque coeff; dn=diameter

The factor that changes with dry vs lubricated fasteners is the "torque coefficient" and is published for a variety of cases. Various values exist, mine are taken from a company (rhymes with GuPont) Engineering Specification (10 pages of calcs). Examples:

Dry steel fasteners: K=0.20
Lightly oiled steel: K=0.15
Cad Plated: K=0.14
Anti Seize on steel: K=0.13 (as published by Bostik for their Never Seez products)
Graphite & mineral oil: K=0.10

Using Never Seize versus dry uncoated steel, multiply the specified torque by 0.65. Note that most wheel bolts/studs are plated in some manner (cadmium in many cases).

The only issue I've personally seen is when the Anti Seize contacts the ball seats on the lugs & wheel (as mentioned above). Relative motion between these seats can cause them to deform.

A very light coating on the threads only to prevent corrosion and/or galling is all that's needed. As is the case with most Anti Seize applications, a little goes a long way.

I NEVER use Anti-Seize on Lug Nuts for this reason. Say the Torque is 100 lb/ft dry for a Tapered Lug Nut. If you use Anti-Seize the Torque should be adjusted to a mere 65 lb/ft. If you set your Torque Wrench to 100 lb/ft you are going to run the Tapered Lug Nut right through a Steel Wheel. Stretching the Stud, almost doubling the specified Torque and creating an unsafe condition.

I use Copper Anti-Seize most of the time and I use it on ALL Exhaust Bolts, O2 Sensors, Drum Brake Backing Plates, Adjustable Suspension Components and Ball Joints with Castle Nuts/Cotter Pins.

Of course to each their own. You can not deny the Torque Value is changed when applying ANYTHING to threads of a Fastener though. It is simply asinine to think the Torque Value does not change in relation. Simply asinine.

 

[SantaAna12]

Interesting thread. Thanks CJKaz. I should find my properties of materials book and mark that equation.
I use anti seize when putting a stainless fastener into aluminum. Yes it gets everywhere: use a dedicated shop towel for the anti seize, and replace towel and gloves often. No big deal.

 

[carbon]

A little off topic, but "in a typical assembly" the metal-to-metal contact between a bolt and hole threads is "as little as 15%, the rest is just air." This is from the Loctite people. Just sorta blows my tiny mind.

http://au.iloctite.com/en/press-media/16

 

[hifi_hokie]

I don't use it everywhere, but after replacing a bunch of galled antenna hardware I quickly learned to use it on stainless.

 

[flamewulfe]

I was rebuilding an engine, and an old Air Force mechanic told me to use Anti Seize as the engine assembly lube for the bearing journals. I balked at that, and bought synthetic assembly lube instead. Anybody ever heard of using Anti Seize to pre-lube bearings?

 

[offroadsteve]

I usually hate to beat a dead horse, but there is quite a bit of person preference being thrown around in this thread, and this is the correct answer.

The US Navy uses numbers and calculations very similar to those quoted below. As rockchuker pointed out, it is very very easy to severly overstress a joint if you use the same toque for an unlubricated vs lubricated fastener, ane even for different types of lubricants sometimes!

We even go so far as to incorporate fastener running torque (the amount or torque required just to run the nut down the bolt, usually for self-locking fasteners) into the torque specification.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJKaz
The torque required for a bolted joint design comes from a long string of calculations, but boils down to a simple linear equation.

T = Wp x K x dn where T=torque; Wp=fastener preload; K=torque coeff; dn=diameter

The factor that changes with dry vs lubricated fasteners is the "torque coefficient" and is published for a variety of cases. Various values exist, mine are taken from a company (rhymes with GuPont) Engineering Specification (10 pages of calcs). Examples:

Dry steel fasteners: K=0.20
Lightly oiled steel: K=0.15
Cad Plated: K=0.14
Anti Seize on steel: K=0.13 (as published by Bostik for their Never Seez products)
Graphite & mineral oil: K=0.10

Using Never Seize versus dry uncoated steel, multiply the specified torque by 0.65. Note that most wheel bolts/studs are plated in some manner (cadmium in many cases).

The only issue I've personally seen is when the Anti Seize contacts the ball seats on the lugs & wheel (as mentioned above). Relative motion between these seats can cause them to deform.

A very light coating on the threads only to prevent corrosion and/or galling is all that's needed. As is the case with most Anti Seize applications, a little goes a long way.

 

[ssentt]

I was rebuilding an engine, and an old Air Force mechanic told me to use Anti Seize as the engine assembly lube for the bearing journals. I balked at that, and bought synthetic assembly lube instead. Anybody ever heard of using Anti Seize to pre-lube bearings?

Yes, but only a specific type for engine assembly.

There are some anti seize formulas that are specifically made for engine assembly and these are a lithium based grease with a high percentage of moly & graphite....crc makes one. These are known as an extreme pressure anti seize engine assembly lubricant and should not be confused with the copper, nickel, silver, or aluminum based thread anti seize sealants.

 

[Big-Foot]

I was rebuilding an engine, and an old Air Force mechanic told me to use Anti Seize as the engine assembly lube for the bearing journals. I balked at that, and bought synthetic assembly lube instead. Anybody ever heard of using Anti Seize to pre-lube bearings?

I don't think I would advise this.. Whatever you are using as assembly lube must be able to mix readily with the engine oil and even then you have to realize that it will end up in the filter.. While I don't know the particle size of anti-sieze, If it is greater than the minimum size that the filter will grab, you may well plug up the oil filter. Once that happens, the filter will typically go into bypass and all the trash that was trapped inside the filter is now pumped into all your bearings..

 

[richfinn]

I never use it, dirty horrible stuff. If the manufacturers who test cars in extreme cold and heat don't specify it, you don't need it.

We have a name for users in England

"Coppa slip Cowboys" or "never seize nut jobs"

 

[theoldwizard1]

I... However we do use common spray on EVERYTHING with threads going back together, almost every bolt or nut here gets a lite lube.

Okay. I'm ignorant. What is "common spray" ? what ever spray lube you have handy ? (WD-40, Liquid Wrench, ?)

 

[sberry]

Okay. I'm ignorant. What is "common spray" ? what ever spray lube you have handy ? (WD-40, Liquid Wrench, ?)

Yes, any light oil, just enough to prevent galling and seizing.

 

[venturesomerite]

I use it on every machine I take apart from mowers to trucks to zambonis, cause I know I'm the next poor ******* to have to take it apart.

 

[Lead-Core]

anti seize.....herpes of the automotive world, wonce you touch it its everywhere!

 

[freedomgli]

I never use it, dirty horrible stuff. If the manufacturers who test cars in extreme cold and heat don't specify it, you don't need it.

We have a name for users in England

"Coppa slip Cowboys" or "never seize nut jobs"

Automakers also intentionally design for planned obsolescence. They don't give a **** about someone doing maintenance or repairs on a 8 year old vehicle. They prefer you to buy a new car and keep their revenue flowing.

 

[Skin]

I never use it, dirty horrible stuff. If the manufacturers who test cars in extreme cold and heat don't specify it, you don't need it.

They don't specify it because they don't care about maintaining a car 10 years later. As if they test and design for all kinds of climates. Must be why components literally rot off cars after some years in the rust belt.

 

[Farmall450]

They don't specify it because they don't care about maintaining a car 10 years later. As if they test and design for all kinds of climates. Must be why components literally rot off cars after some years in the rust belt.

If they cared everything in the Midwest would have factory undercoating lol.

 

[ssentt]

If they cared everything in the Midwest would have factory undercoating lol.

Might I add also......galvanized coatings on the backside of body panels.

 

[PAPERMAKER]

We use it all the time not only for fasteners but on the back of folks gang box lid handles locker locks steering wheels and mostly in gloves left lying around.