mattthemuppet
Well-known member
any of those larger knee mills other than the M head would be my choice too. Pick whichever has the most tooling and is in the best useable condition.
Bought Bridgeport Clone - Now Getting it Set Up for Basic Machining
- Thread starter bulletpruf
- Start date
86turbodsl
Well-known member
That's a proper mill. Do not be scared of 3phase. Easy to get aroundOk, whoever mentioned Index mills, here you go. This one is north of Dallas, so 6 hours each way. Looks like a heavy sumbitch, too. $2k, and don't know if it's single phase or 3 phase.
RoninB4
Well-known member
-Quoting the above post for the OP- Agree that the Exacto, Meehanite (brand name or type of cast iron?), or Wells Index would be preferable to any mill/drill or round column machine. Do not agree that a variable speed head is better because repair to these is more complicated, expensive to repair, and not as sturdy as a manual-change-pulley type (J head). Yes changing pulley-to-belt takes more time and is a minor PITA but simplicity has less repair costs and usually lasts longer than a variable speed head. JMO and JME
The Exacto is a Taiwan based machine, better than a Chinese made machine. The Supermill and the Exacto look like clones of the Bridgeport and likely share component specs for bearings, lead screw, gibs, etc. The Wells-Index is a well thought of mill that should still have parts available and may still be in business.
For any of these candidates (or others not mentioned) the first and most important thing is condition. How much backlash is the lead screws of the X/Y axis? How much visible wear is on the dovetails? cranking the table part way out you grab the table free end and try moving it back/forth while recording the play (with a plunger type dial indicator), now do the same to the opposite end. Run the machine through ALL the spindle speeds (look up changing from low-to-high procedure) and power feed (if there is one). Check for quill feed operation. Listen for excessively noisy bearings and/or vibration in head.
After machine condition see how much tooling is included, it can be expensive. Pick the machine that suits your budget. If you have more questions about machinery or how to move it just ask. Good luck.
86turbodsl
Well-known member
You should be digging around on practical machinist web forum also. Lots of good info provided by crusty old guys.
86turbodsl
Well-known member
Wells is still in business and parts are reasonable
Scott I wouldn’t argue the benefits of a knee mil over a bench top round column mill, what everyone has said is true. However you can perform probably 90% of anything you might want to do off one. I’ve had my 2hp rongfu unit with power down feed, table and a dro for going on 25yrs. It’s amazing the thousands of parts I’ve made with it thru the years. Ya there’s times it was a ***** to do some operations but nothing that couldn’t be handle with a little ingenuity.
I also had a 9/49 supermax knee mill. But there came a day when I was completely out of space and had to make a decision as to footprint verses ability and needs. And considering that my so-called toy lived on top of a bench I built with two lista cabinets buried into the design with all my tooling and whatnots living in one compact space gave my knee mill to a buddy. I’ve only regretted that decision a couple times.
Point is you really need to consider your needs.
This seems to be the only pic I have on this phone and it was right when I was moving into the shop in Phoenix. I’m only posting it to give you an idea of why I made this choice.
I also had a 9/49 supermax knee mill. But there came a day when I was completely out of space and had to make a decision as to footprint verses ability and needs. And considering that my so-called toy lived on top of a bench I built with two lista cabinets buried into the design with all my tooling and whatnots living in one compact space gave my knee mill to a buddy. I’ve only regretted that decision a couple times.
Point is you really need to consider your needs.
This seems to be the only pic I have on this phone and it was right when I was moving into the shop in Phoenix. I’m only posting it to give you an idea of why I made this choice.
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tool_scrounge
Well-known member
Milling machines are good for milling and making small to medium sized holes. Research the manufacturer’s recommended max drill size for your desired material. It will not be as large as you would think.
For larger holes, I usually use a spot drill on the mill with a DRO mark the holes. Then I drill the holes on a large drill press.
An old school camel back drill press can drill much larger holes than most milling machines.
For larger holes, I usually use a spot drill on the mill with a DRO mark the holes. Then I drill the holes on a large drill press.
An old school camel back drill press can drill much larger holes than most milling machines.
slowtwitch73
Well-known member
Personally, I wouldn't put too much weight on tooling.
I'd worry about machine quality, and parts availability/support above all else, then location and price.
A DRO (functioning and with preferably with support) is also important.
All else can be bought and shipped easily to your shop and will be in new un abused condition and will be exactly what you need/want, not some random hodge podge of mystery tooling.
Vise, hold down set, parallels, R8 colllet set (most likely) some cutters... Bob's your uncle.
YMMV.
I'd worry about machine quality, and parts availability/support above all else, then location and price.
A DRO (functioning and with preferably with support) is also important.
All else can be bought and shipped easily to your shop and will be in new un abused condition and will be exactly what you need/want, not some random hodge podge of mystery tooling.
Vise, hold down set, parallels, R8 colllet set (most likely) some cutters... Bob's your uncle.
YMMV.
Steve from Socal
Well-known member
I am not going to rehash the whole machine type but, Houston is ground zero for machine tools in your area. Start looking in the south east heck even into Beaumont.
This is a great point of the maintenance/cost difference between the J head with fixed pulleys which is simpler, more reliable and cheaper vs the variable speed head.
In a use case such as likely here, which is going to be doing a variety of work in likely different materials, to me the ability to change speeds quickly and easily outweighs the potential cost impact of the variable speed. Changing pulleys is a pain compared to spinning the knob for speed change, and regardless of how well intentioned one is, the simplicity of "just send it" for that "quick" hole generally seems to outweigh the "I should change that pulley around" etc. Generally I see these machines being setup at a "jack of all trades" speeds so most of their operations work "ok" but nothing works well. If the variable speed does end up needing work, for the normal hobbyist use it's probably a single time event and good for the rest of the life of their ownership of it.
For something that is more likely to be doing work that has a smaller range of of spindle speeds...always drilling/milling mild steel with similar size tooling or always punching holes in aluminum, agree the fixed pully head has more advantages
Looking closer at both the Houston and Dallas mills....that Houston mill is closer and at that price seems like a steal so makes me a bit worried about it being clapped out with excessive backlash in the screws, damage to the ways or a noisy spindle.
whateg01
Well-known member
If it's going to get a vfd anyway, between the 2 speed motor and the vfd control, I find that I can run almost everything I want to without moving the belt. I am not saying that's ideal because I doubt the motor is rated for inverter use, but I keep the freq above 30 hz almost all of the time. So far, is been ok.
This looks like a Webb. Nice machines and parts are still available from WebbAnother big cheap one - $950 in Houston. Don't know make or model.
Even with imperial lead screws, everything on the machine is metric.
Ultradog MN
Well-known member
NOT arguing with anyone here as most everything I've seen written so far has been good advice.
But one thing I will quibble about is the necessity of a DRO.
I can add, I can subtract. I can count the number of revolutions I've turned a crank and multiply.
It's old school but the practice keeps me sharp.
I have never needed a DRO to do the Many things I've done on my mill - which came with a decent vise and nothing else. So I concentrated on tooling - collets, a boring head, parallels, fly cutters, a drill chuck, V blocks, angle plate, milling cutters, rotary table, wigglers, etc, etc.
All of it, even the cheap stuff, is expensive.
So I say hold off on the dro.
I did get a China dro on the Bport I just bought and am looking forward to learning to use it. I'm sure it will make things easier.
But it would not have helped me do Anything if I had not bought some tooling first.
But one thing I will quibble about is the necessity of a DRO.
I can add, I can subtract. I can count the number of revolutions I've turned a crank and multiply.
It's old school but the practice keeps me sharp.
I have never needed a DRO to do the Many things I've done on my mill - which came with a decent vise and nothing else. So I concentrated on tooling - collets, a boring head, parallels, fly cutters, a drill chuck, V blocks, angle plate, milling cutters, rotary table, wigglers, etc, etc.
All of it, even the cheap stuff, is expensive.
So I say hold off on the dro.
I did get a China dro on the Bport I just bought and am looking forward to learning to use it. I'm sure it will make things easier.
But it would not have helped me do Anything if I had not bought some tooling first.
Attachments
slowtwitch73
Well-known member
^^ the more wear, the more a dro helps. I would hate to run a mill without one. They cost a fair bit so if you can get one with the mill, all the better.
Tip of the hat to those who can make a mill sing without one. I aint that guy.
Tip of the hat to those who can make a mill sing without one. I aint that guy.
86turbodsl
Well-known member
If the motor is rated for 440-460v, and you're running on a vfd at 230v, it won't matter inverter duty or not. The insulation will be sufficient for the higher voltage the inverter inflicts.
With a boring head, the mill can do much larger holes than the camelback drill... and with a rotary table, hole size on a mill is limited only by rotary table size and setup ingenuity...
Apples and oranges...
Best situation...? Camelback DP and mill... I have both.
If I could only have one? The mill wins, hands down. You can drill on a mill, but you can't mill on a drill... or not very well, anyway.
-Bear
Tim in Indiana
Well-known member
As others have said, I would choose any of the bridgeport clones over a mill/drill.
My choice of all shown would be the Supermill. It has square ways, not dovetail which I prefer. I have five "bridgeports", three are actual and two are Chinese/Taiwan square way clones like the Supermill.
All have DRO's, all have X axis power feeds.
Personally, I would not be without either. You can buy a three axis import DRO kit for a bridgeport for less than $500, an import power feed for less than that.
Also, you can drill just about any size hole with a mill. Just use annular cutters or hole saws for the larger holes. I have cut 6" diameter holes in 1-1/2" steel plate with a good quality bi-metal holesaw. Drill some chip evac holes on the cut line, use a little coolant, pick the PROPER rpm and let it feed. As long as the chips don't pack up it will saw right through. Annular cutters are even easier.
Last, I would actually prefer the step pulley head in your situation. You don't have three phase power and will need to buy a cheap VFD to run it. The VFD will give you your variable speed. No need for the the variable speed mechanism, bushings, belt, etc.
My choice of all shown would be the Supermill. It has square ways, not dovetail which I prefer. I have five "bridgeports", three are actual and two are Chinese/Taiwan square way clones like the Supermill.
All have DRO's, all have X axis power feeds.
Personally, I would not be without either. You can buy a three axis import DRO kit for a bridgeport for less than $500, an import power feed for less than that.
Also, you can drill just about any size hole with a mill. Just use annular cutters or hole saws for the larger holes. I have cut 6" diameter holes in 1-1/2" steel plate with a good quality bi-metal holesaw. Drill some chip evac holes on the cut line, use a little coolant, pick the PROPER rpm and let it feed. As long as the chips don't pack up it will saw right through. Annular cutters are even easier.
Last, I would actually prefer the step pulley head in your situation. You don't have three phase power and will need to buy a cheap VFD to run it. The VFD will give you your variable speed. No need for the the variable speed mechanism, bushings, belt, etc.
rsanter
Well-known member
They are all overpriced IMO
The enco is the best deal as long as it’s in decent shape.
You would be better off with an older round ram Bridgeport if you can fine one, the round rams are not as valuable as the later J series
The enco is the best deal as long as it’s in decent shape.
You would be better off with an older round ram Bridgeport if you can fine one, the round rams are not as valuable as the later J series
OP
bulletpruf
Well-known member
There's a J head Bridgeport in Houston for $2k. Has power feed on x axis but it's not working. 3 phase. No tooling included. Doesn't look as monstrous as some of the other mills.
Owner said it was purchased from a school so it was never used for production.
Unfortunately, it's not under power now, so it would be difficult to give it a thorough inspection.
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Cruzan80
Well-known member
Does he say what is wrong with the power? If it is a lack of 3-ph, doesn't always mean there is an issue. If a lack, see if he would be willing to let you/help you dismount the motor, and see if it rope-starts on the bench.
The power feed on that one is much beefier than the import versions. That looks to have a 120V plug, so it could be worth the difference right there. Couldn't tell if you mean the mill doesn't work, or the power feed doesn't.
The power feed on that one is much beefier than the import versions. That looks to have a 120V plug, so it could be worth the difference right there. Couldn't tell if you mean the mill doesn't work, or the power feed doesn't.
OP
bulletpruf
Well-known member
The mill isn't under power; I take that to mean that he doesn't have 3 phase power available, which makes sense because he said he was going to use a VFD.
The power feed doesn't work, but he's not sure why.
Thanks
Cruzan80
Well-known member
I mean, there is an off/on switch in the bottom right, that is currently "Off"...The top handle then has to move to engage L or R.
Could be as simple as a bad key, could be the entire board is shot. Or could be he never realized there is a switch and rocker arm.
Could be as simple as a bad key, could be the entire board is shot. Or could be he never realized there is a switch and rocker arm.
Steve from Socal
Well-known member
That is bad advice, a round ram B-port is really not much of a machine. The asking price is only a starting point!
To the OP,
That B-port from the school is an early vari-drive could be problems? It is an old machine look at the power feed, the good, it has an 8-10" riser. A Bridgeport without a riser has limited Z axis envelope. I would maybe offer 1000.00
OP
bulletpruf
Well-known member
The problem is that something like this would likely end up gathering dust in the shop. I really need to pick something up that's ready to go, preferably with some tooling.
Thanks
alfadan
Well-known member
Well the power feed isn't necessary to use the machine. Really doubt the motor doesn't work.
alfadan
Well-known member
Duplicate
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86turbodsl
Well-known member
To evaluate a mill, you need to know how much slop is in the table/gibs/knee/screws/etc, and the condition of the spindle bearings. 3ph motors are almost never toast. I've never bought one that was damaged in any significant way, even sight unseen. They just don't have problems. You can evaluate everything without power except the spindle. 2K isn't a bad deal. R8 tooling is everywhere, you just need to shop carefully. And there will always be a market to offload it since it says "bridgeport" on it. That's why i said to look at others, don't pay the bridgeport tax. One good thing about them is parts are easy to get.
whateg01
Well-known member
Almost never isn't never. I was given a 2 hp motor that somebody let the smoke out of. It sits on the back of a shelf. Too much effort to dig it out to get rid of it.
slowtwitch73
Well-known member
In this day age, I don't know why these doofuses don't take a freeking video of the machine running *before* removing it from power.
whateg01
Well-known member
I use that as a bargaining chip. I would like to pay more but without seeing it running, I just don't knowIn this day age, I don't know why these doofuses don't take a freeking video of the machine running *before* removing it from power.
dutchgray
Well-known member
DRO is a time saving device, there really isn't anything much that can't be done without one, but so much you can get done faster with one.
Those Enco type mills are still available (Chinese built versions) and are reasonably popular with hobby types, they really need a riser block because as they come they have very little Z capacity, you won't be doing much drilling on one in standard configuration.
The Mill Drills are glorified drilling machines that can also do some milling, if you're actual use case for a machine is mostly drilling then they are not the worst choice.
All the small benchtop type machines are overpriced as the hobby types will always be after them.
A Bridgeport or clone in good condition makes a fine and versatile milling machine for the home user.
Normally what you end up with is largely determined by which machine becomes available when you're looking for one.
OP
bulletpruf
Well-known member
That's a good point.
Another good point.
Yeah, a Bridgeport or clone would be a lot more tempting if I didn't have to drive 3-6 hours to check it out. If one popped up in San Antonio reasonably priced, that would be tough to pass up.
Thanks
I'm in the small group that loves my round column RF mill. Yes everything could be done better, but it works, it was cheap, and it doesn't take up much space.
That being said, if your goal is to make holes, a drill press is a better tool every day. They take a third of the time to setup, they have a better work envelop, and they take up less space. Honestly I hate drilling on my mill. Unless it needs to be very precise, I go to the drill press every time. It is so much easier to throw it on the table and put a C clamp or vice grip on it, then it is to find mount the drill chuck, crank up the head, get some parallels so I don't drill into the table, mount the vise, and then figure out how to fit the part into the vise. Even with a decently large mill you are still limited on how big of a part you can drill. The table and knee are often in the way of big or awkward parts.
The mill is a wonderful tool. Always worth having, but just food for thought.
I have been biting my tongue (OK, fingers) a bit to not add too much detail to the drill press/mill-drill/milling machine discussion, but I guess I should play another card as in GJ tradition we should answer questions as completely as possible. I have already noted that by far my busiest machine tool is my old Taiwan drill, but I should add why it gets so much more use than mill: I do a LOT of bolt circles and have my drill table set up with two rows of indexed holes on the perimeter - one 24 and one 10. I can center clamp a blank, rough in the BC dia on machinist's blue with dead center in chuck, measure result and move against dial indicator to correct, scribe new ref arcs until they measure out, chuck up a center drill and do a pair of reference holes, verify dia, and select the number of final holes needed and center drill away. If to be threaded I can start taps from chuck in all holes then be free to finish in bench vise. I routinely do size-on-size mating circles and almost always get a good fit just using allowance from undersize of nominal sized fasteners.
Yeah, I could do SOME of this on a mill, but it is extremely easy to center clamp to do on drill and not very yard to clamp from slots on OD if not an open center blank. VERY quick and easy on a drill table.
RoninB4
Well-known member
A few thoughts some of you may agree or disagree with.
1) A vari-drive you can't hear running through ALL the speeds can mean problems with the drive.
2) Non-Asian motors last a long time, the bearings may not. I need to hear all operational functions or I negotiate price as non-working
3) Round ram B-port is arguably inferior to dovetail. What is not arguable is that it is a much older design and likely has more wear on it
4) Any feed drive that can't be seen running at all feeds can be presumed dead if it has a 110v plug that can easily be plugged in anywhere
5) A DRO is more than just a speed convenience. All lead screws, even new, have an error factor that's a multiple of the wear/inaccuracy. It's even in new/expensive CNC machines and is compensated for during initial set-up. A table/saddle feed is convenience/speed, a DRO is not. Is the DRO essential? No, it depends upon distance traveled and the allowable tolerance required. They are nice to have at times.
6) The riser in the "school B-port" can be a PITA to have. It's useful for long tooling or tall fixtures but I've only needed one a few times in decades of machine shop work. It can also require excessive hang-out of the quill to reach the workpiece with an end mill which can induce excessive vibration and a poor machined finish. There are other methods to use when the "Z" envelope isn't enough.
7) Castings are NOT all equal. Almost all of the machinery from China uses an inferior. porous casting with thinner cross sections. The fitment/fitting of machined mating surfaces is also decidedly incomplete/inferior to most older iron from recognized name brands like B-port, Wells-Index, Webb, Clausing, etc. There is no substitute for mass in machinery. Perhaps it's different now but almost every Chinese machine (including Enco) weighs/weighed less due to an inferior casting with thinner cross sections.
8) Stories about a machine being from a school or research facility are often lies. They do exist but are quite uncommon since most schools ditched the industrial arts programs at least 15-20 years ago. Claims of "rebuilt" should also be viewed with scepticism.
Does any of this matter? That's up to the individual and the type of work they do. I have some really good industrial level machinery but I also made a fork brace for my motorcycle on the crappiest of tiny Chinese machinery when there was no other option. Buy and use what suits your budget/circumstances. Poorly made machinery can/will disappoint sooner or later, better made equipment is almost never the wrong choice, JMO
1) A vari-drive you can't hear running through ALL the speeds can mean problems with the drive.
2) Non-Asian motors last a long time, the bearings may not. I need to hear all operational functions or I negotiate price as non-working
3) Round ram B-port is arguably inferior to dovetail. What is not arguable is that it is a much older design and likely has more wear on it
4) Any feed drive that can't be seen running at all feeds can be presumed dead if it has a 110v plug that can easily be plugged in anywhere
5) A DRO is more than just a speed convenience. All lead screws, even new, have an error factor that's a multiple of the wear/inaccuracy. It's even in new/expensive CNC machines and is compensated for during initial set-up. A table/saddle feed is convenience/speed, a DRO is not. Is the DRO essential? No, it depends upon distance traveled and the allowable tolerance required. They are nice to have at times.
6) The riser in the "school B-port" can be a PITA to have. It's useful for long tooling or tall fixtures but I've only needed one a few times in decades of machine shop work. It can also require excessive hang-out of the quill to reach the workpiece with an end mill which can induce excessive vibration and a poor machined finish. There are other methods to use when the "Z" envelope isn't enough.
7) Castings are NOT all equal. Almost all of the machinery from China uses an inferior. porous casting with thinner cross sections. The fitment/fitting of machined mating surfaces is also decidedly incomplete/inferior to most older iron from recognized name brands like B-port, Wells-Index, Webb, Clausing, etc. There is no substitute for mass in machinery. Perhaps it's different now but almost every Chinese machine (including Enco) weighs/weighed less due to an inferior casting with thinner cross sections.
8) Stories about a machine being from a school or research facility are often lies. They do exist but are quite uncommon since most schools ditched the industrial arts programs at least 15-20 years ago. Claims of "rebuilt" should also be viewed with scepticism.
Does any of this matter? That's up to the individual and the type of work they do. I have some really good industrial level machinery but I also made a fork brace for my motorcycle on the crappiest of tiny Chinese machinery when there was no other option. Buy and use what suits your budget/circumstances. Poorly made machinery can/will disappoint sooner or later, better made equipment is almost never the wrong choice, JMO
RoninB4
Well-known member
-A telephone call with specific questions regarding functionality, backlash at the dials, bearing noise, and condition may weed out some of the candidates. I wouldn't want to do that drive on a "maybe" either. I had to drive 360 miles for my surface grinder. If a seller can't demonstrate the machine under power I wouldn't consider it more than a project and priced accordingly. Get something that's working.
slowtwitch73
Well-known member
I wouldn't be afraid of Ebay.. buy from a reputable seller.
At least you are somewhat covered if something goes sideways.
I've bought most all my machines off Ebay and have had great luck.
At least you are somewhat covered if something goes sideways.
I've bought most all my machines off Ebay and have had great luck.
RoninB4
Well-known member
-This is an example of selecting the machine for the work and adapting the process for the tolerance required. It is an often overlooked consideration when purchasing a machine. I've advocated better quality machinery BUT the buyer really needs to estimate what type of work will be encountered. My Mitsui jig borer can make holes all day long on +/- .0005 location. Would that be a good choice for clearance holes in a cover plate? Not really, a drill press would be faster/cheaper. Use the B-port for multiple dowel pin holes on a progressive stamping die? Not nearly accurate enough and poor interface is to be expected. Both instances point to appropriate machinery, a clear idea of what you expect to do (or will do) helps to decide what the appropriate machine choice should be.
whateg01
Well-known member
Here is how you make that happen. Spend all your money on another machine.
OP
bulletpruf
Well-known member
The school Bridgeport has been sold, so that's no longer an option.
Thanks for the detailed input.