Craftsman bashing

[SantaAna12]

Excellent pic Codejack.

I filled holes about five years ago in my CMAN set and got the same result.
My older ones have been used (now in the truck) for years and do not show the softness that your pic details.

 

[928'er]

Simple.

The Craftsman name used to represent decent quality tools offered at a reasonable price.

Now the Craftsman name means poor quality chinese **** offered at the same (or higher) price.

 

[theoldwizard1]

For home DIY repairs and home mechanics like me, Craftsman, Kobalt, Husky, Gearwrench, etc.. are all the same quality. They are all good enough and in most cases will outlive the original purchaser and their grandchildren.

Add in, some of the newer stuff from HF ! Those other guys had better watch out !!

 

[JazzBlueRT]

I think that there are two issues here:

First, the quality of Craftsman tools has noticeably deteriorated over the past 15 years, without a doubt. The issue isn't so much the COO as much as it is the drop in Quality Assurance Quality Control (QAQC) and the inferior materials out which newer Craftsman tools are made. The biggest frustration is that the prices for these newer tools are about on par with the older (better built) Craftsman tools which I think leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouth.

Secondly--and I believe that this is more important--there is a lot of frustration with the fact that a brand as representative of American workmanship as Craftsman tools have been whored out by a hedge fund manager (who doesn't work with his hands) into just another lower cost tool company with a fancy warranty. The big issue is that for most of its history, Craftsman tools represented a well-made and high quality American tool company that made quality tools affordable for middle and lower class Americans. Now, we are left with the extremes: It's either the very high quality and ridiculously expensive truck tool brands or its the low quality Harbor Freight or Husky or Kobalt alternatives. Like everything else, those who want a nice balance of quality and price are sort of left out in the cold.

I think that the issue with Craftsman tools is much more of an emotional issue. It's the crumbling of the old America--which emphasized hard work and high quality--in favor of the new America--which emphasizes throw away objects and bottom line prices.

At least that's just my two cents.

I can agree with your second point, but your first point has no backing.

Where is any evidence that demonstrates either an increased manufacturing defect rate or a reduction in the quality of alloys used in the tools.

The cost of Craftsman tools has dropped dramatically since the 1980's.

In 198* (don't remember the exact year), I spent $199 on a 180 piece Craftsman mechanics tools set.

In May 2017, I bought a 323 piece Craftsman mechanics tools set for $159 I also received $30 in rewards points, the set effectively cost me $129. The tools themselves are nearly identical and work exactly like the old ones. None of the tools have broken from any generation.

In the 1980's, I bought a 12 piece screwdriver set for $19.99, last month, I bought a 17 piece set with larger screwdrivers for $19.99.

All emotions aside, the cost of the tools has dropped both in real terms and in constant 1980's dollars. All things being equal, the tools should cost 3x as much given inflation over the time period.

Maybe it is annoying that Sears plays games with pricing. The $19.99 jack-stands I wanted to buy 2 weeks ago are now $49 which is $10 above similar product from HF, but at $19.99 they are a great deal that HF cannot touch.

 

[JazzBlueRT]

That tool has not been abused; it has not been hammered on, had a cheater bar or another wrench used to extend its length. It just *****.

That wrench is one of the remnants of my first real tool kit that my Dad bought me when I was about 15, call it 1992. I bought a Craftsman socket set a year or two later, that I wound up throwing away, along with several of the wrenches that broke.

--------------------------------------------------

Now, is it possible that I came in during a particularly bad period in Cman's USA production? Absolutely.

Is it possible that I am just a big, strong guy who is unusually hard on tools? Again, sure.

Is it possible that their modern production at least has proper quality control standards so that, for example, you don't get 2 bad replacements for your original bad tool? I would hope so!

At best, though, they are just another name, without the guarantee that was the hallmark of the brand for so long, and it's been that way for at least 25 years, now.

If you need a home tool kit, and the price it right, buy it; don't pay more than you would for any other brand, like Kobalt or Husky, though.

It may be coincidence, but that has happened to almost every wrench I have ever used when I hook the box end of one wrench over the open end of another to get extra leverage. Never had it happen to a wrench of any brand under any other condition. It also does not impact the usability of the tool. Over time as the edges of the open end become worn, it stops happening.

 

[The Fall]

When you consider the value, accessibility and warranty, Craftsman was truly amazing. It's not that amazing anymore. And from my experiences (and what others have told me), it's getting worse and worse with warrantying tools and the exchanges are inferior (CMan Pro USA traded out for China). Not to mention all the Sears stores closing. All those years of Bob Villa and AJ Foyt commercials really built an expectation for the brand that has evaporated before your eyes.

The other aspect was simply the hole that's been left. Yes, SK is awesome -- I received a brand new 45170 in the mail today -- but it's still a good deal more money than Cman was in 2010 (adjusted for inflation). Everyone knew they were getting a good starter kit with CMan. And, damn, not anymore. I go to pawnshops a lot and have put together socket sets/ratchets for my friend's son who's in 7th grade, already obsessed with hot rods. I'd prefer to get him new CMan, but I put used USA over the current offerings.

 

[mowkep]

Too funny. I have to drive at least a half hour to get to a Sears now. I went this evening to warranty a yellow fiberglass handled shovel and rake. They are cracking big time. The clerk was kind of a **** at first. He had the shovel which is chuck full of cracks. He goes where are the cracks I don't see them. I said all over. Naturally they didn't have any in stock and I have to call to see when they will have them. They only get a couple at a time.
While the Mrs. was away I strolled the aisles and noticed the new pliers. Made in China. SO there's that.
My tools are pretty much hodge podge anyhow. I sold my CM socket set years ago because I hated the ratchets. (non quick release), sold my CM Pro screwdrivers because the quality wasn't good, I use my CM adjustable wrenches, 4 in 1 screwdriver and some of the pliers. The robogrips are the only thing I don't use. They are what they are, affordable hand tools that at one time had an incredible replacement warranty

 

[JazzBlueRT]

Add in, some of the newer stuff from HF ! Those other guys had better watch out !!

I left HF out because I have little experience with their Pittsburgh Pro line of hand tools. HF has definitely moved up the food chain, but so have their prices.

 

[The Fall]

I always thought CMan sockets were an incredible value. I know a couple mechanics who've wrenched for years using mostly CMan. Money well spent. They don't fail.

 

[JazzBlueRT]

and the exchanges are inferior (CMan Pro USA traded out for China).

To me, this might be a major explanation of what I perceive as irrational hated of the brand. I was not aware Sears was doing this.

If I spent a premium for the professional line, I would be livid if they replaced it with a mainline tool. I could imagine if I warranted a CMan and they gave me a Companion or evolve replacement.

 

[The Fall]

Absolutely. I mean, are they going to give you an SK flare-nut wrench on the very off chance you happen to need it warrantied out? SK doesn't make'em for CMan anymore. The Professional line (with the exception of Prybars and maybe one or two other items) or full polish stuff is made in China.

 

[Codejack]

I always thought CMan sockets... They don't fail.

Now I wish that I had held onto that old Cman socket set that I kept cracking sockets from...

 

[The Fall]

Now I wish that I had held onto that old Cman socket set that I kept cracking sockets from...

I always had great luck with them. And the guys I know have too. Your experiences obviously varied.

 

[6PTsocket]

I don't believe the OP is arguing that point. He's merely highlighting what appears to be an unreasonable dislike of a budget tool for being, a budget tool.

It was a usable tool of middle of the road quality that has deteriorated to junk. I don't understand the devotion to any brand. I own no stock in Sears or am I trapped in a time warp, reminiscing over buying Craftsman tools with Grandpa. I also do not understand why Snap On is the alternative that always comes up. Snap On is quality stuff but with inflated prices due to their distribution system. There are plenty of domestic and imported, serviceable tools at decent prices.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[The Fall]

I always liked Craftsman when they were made in the USA. You could get by and they were an incredible value. Some things were terrible (ratchets), others (sockets, pry bars, etc.) were great and some were so-so (wrenches, screwdrivers). Best bang for the buck around. Thank god so many millions were made. Clearly, YMMV.

 

[kwschumm]

At risk of :but not wanting to : I do not understand the Craftsman bashing around here.

Nobody ever posts actual facts about warranty rates, defect rates, alloy composition or actual lab tests concerning tool durability and strength. All I ever see is COO and anecdotal hyperbole.

To me, it seems almost irrational. Kinda like a Honda owner telling me Chrysler has bad transmissions. Wait! What! Do you really believe your perpetually recalled Honda transmission is better quality than the ZF 8 speed in my Mopar!

I have a garage full of Craftsman tools and other equipment that I have accumulated over the past 30 years. From my experience, the quality of the tools has increased substantially over the past 30 years regardless of COO. The only reason for the abundance of Craftsman tools is the value proposal of the tool. I also have quite a few of the Harbor Freight air tools for the same reason. My Husky tool boxes were brought for the same reason, build quality for the price.

I visit a Sears, Home Depot and Harbor Freight almost weekly. With rare exceptions, the Craftsman tools, when on sale, always present the best value out there. Surprisingly, over the past several years, Harbor Freight has become more expensive for the same or lower quality tools than the Craftsman.

I can understand professional mechanics who's income depends upon the ability to have someone come to the shop to replace a tool.

I even get the COO warriors as I also like to support my fellow American worker.

For home DIY repairs and home mechanics like me, Craftsman, Kobalt, Husky, Gearwrench, etc.. are all the same quality. They are all good enough and in most cases will outlive the original purchaser and their grandchildren.

Yes, there are better tools, but not for the money and having tools which will last for my great grandchildren over just my grandchildren is not a real value proposal.

For some odd reason, the Craftsman name brings up often hostile inexplicable hatred. I don't get it.

Eddie? Is that you?

 

[Codejack]

I always had great luck with them. And the guys I know have too. Your experiences obviously varied.

...and that seems to be the consensus on pretty much every brand, other than the very top of the line where pretty much the only criticism is that they are expensive.

Bear in mind that I recently twisted 2 Williams USA sockets; I was legitimately abusing them (4' cheater bar), but how you use your tools has a pretty big impact on how you judge their quality.

I need better tools, so I am going to shell out the money for better tools.

For example, the set discussed in this thread:

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=366572

is this:

http://www.sears.com/craftsman-118-pc-dual-marked-mechanics-tool-set/p-00934118000P

A 118-pc 3/8" and 1/2" drive set for $50.

I just paid that much for a single ratchet. Used.

To fill out that set in pro quality tools, which is roughly equivalent to the set that I just spec'd out in "My first Pro tools" thread, adds up to about $320, with used ratchets and a good deal on sockets.

But, adjust for inflation; that Craftsman set was probably still $50 in 1977, which would be about $200 today. Was old Craftsman 2/3 of Pro quality? I would believe that.

Is it 1/6 of Pro quality today? Probably better than that... but then, used ratchets

 

[Jtels85]

Craftsman was all my Dad used growing up. He purchased his Craftsman tools beginning in the early 1970's, most of which are V, VV and G codes. He can't recall a time where he had to warranty a socket or a ratchet and I've seen him work on some ******** stuff (ball joints, hubs, brakes, etc...). So growing up watching my Dad use Craftsman and visiting Sears with him at our local mall.. I naturally gravitated toward Craftsman when I began purchasing my own tools. I began accumulating in the late 2000's, before the offshoring took effect. I'm 32 now, have two giant Craftsman tool chests filled with tools and I'd estimate 99% of which are Craftsman, 80% are USA made. All of my chrome socket sets, wrenches, Professional line tools... USA. My Impacts, most of my ratchets, tap & die and a couple odds and ends are China. I'm not a pro, but I work on cars, mowers and home repair. I've only had to warranty one Craftsman tool and that was a torque wrench a couple of weeks ago. Took it in and walked out with a new one, no hassle.

I can honestly say that if I had a **** ton of cash to piss away, I wouldn't buy Snap On, MAC or Matco. They're great tools, but they wouldn't do anything that my Craftsman couldn't do. I'm partial to the brand and have got my use out of them. I have fond memories of them. Now, I'm not happy about the country of origin being China for almost the past decade. Eddie Lampert is a dopey douche bag who only cares about selling Sears assets to make a fast buck. He doesn't care about the consumer or what they want. That will never change until he finally runs the company into the ground... and I mean until there's absolutely nothing left.

I notice a lot of people on here don't like Craftsman and love to bash them. Everyone's entitled to their opinion and it doesn't hurt my feelings at all. I'm just happy to have the extra cash in my pocket to spend on other things besides a flashy $800 wrench set.

Side note: I own a Chrysler product. 2013 Dodge Challenger SXT that I bought new. The transmission is great. 75k miles and still going. I wish I could've said the same thing for the one that took a **** in my 1999 Z28 at 54k miles. That and the problems I had with my Buick LaCrosse, I'll never buy another GM vehicle.

 

[340wedge]

I like my Craftsman tools. Most all are from the 1980s and 90s. That was when Craftsman was the place to go. The average home owner or home mechanic didn't think of going to a tool truck, that was for the Pros! That being said, when I go for a ratchet I use my S&K, screw drivers my Matco's and open end wrenches, my Gear Wrench.

 

[JazzBlueRT]

Now I wish that I had held onto that old Cman socket set that I kept cracking sockets from...

I wish you did also. The only socket I ever broke was a Buffalo Tools 9/16 with like 4 feet of pipe and throwing everything I had at it.

 

[Codejack]

Craftsman... Professional line tools... USA.
.
.
.
.
I'm just happy to have the extra cash in my pocket to spend on other things besides a flashy $800 wrench set.

http://www.travers.com/craftsman-industrial-77-piece-mechanics-tool-set-metric/p/99-013-378/

http://www.travers.com/craftsman-industrial-77-piece-mechanics-tool-set-standard/p/99-013-377/

There's a Craftsman 3/8" and 1/2" set in SAE and metric, $400 on sale, $500 retail.

Those are probably really good tools.

 

[Codejack]

I wish you did also. The only socket I ever broke was a Buffalo Tools 9/16 with like 4 feet of pipe and throwing everything I had at it.

Oh, I used to break Thorsen sockets like they were walnuts. They were cheap, though. What bugged me about the Cman is I wasn't really putting that much force on them; 200 ft-lb, at most, and not from an air gun or anything like that, just a breaker bar and lifting.

I bought Kobalt in 2001 (Williams USA, good stuff), and have broken a ratchet and 4 sockets over the years; the replacement stuff isn't nearly as good, though.

I paid $120 for a 55-piece 3/8" and 1/2" set, roughly equivalent to those Cman industrial sockets I linked above.

I want better, though, which means that Cman isn't even in the running.

 

[ssdave]

The OP said he goes to Sears, Home Depot, and HF for tools. Given that choice, Craftsman wouldn't look too bad. As far as quality deteriorating? The design has gotten thicker, more beveled edge so wrenches don't engage the nut as well, and in general less finished, although some have become more polished.

For homeowner use, they still do pretty well. For professional use, they'd get the job done, but there's better alternatives. But, they are inexpensive, as well as being cheap. That's their main advantage.

 

[Codejack]

they are inexpensive, as well as being cheap.

I suppose of the 4 possible combinations, expensive and cheap would be worse.

Let me know if you find anything inexpensive and quality.

 

[ryan t]

By and large I'm very happy with my Craftsman tools, especially my older ones. I'm very much a weekend tinkerer/mechanic and don't depend on my tools for a living; so, I'm ok with sacrificing some quality for value. Our local sears went out of business about 3 months ago and I took every tool I had that was chipping/rough/broken/etc to them before they closed and exchanged them all for new stuff. The new stuff is not near the quality of the old stuff, as everyone here knows, but I had to do it before they closed.

 

[The Fall]

Snap-on vs Craftsman? Apples to oranges. Snap-on is the majors, Craftsman USA was double A ball. I always liked/purchased good ratchets (Snap-on and SK) and got enough out of Craftsman sockets. To each their own. I'd much rather have Snap-on sockets but couldn't justify the cost to myself. Then again, I only work on cars part time; my friend who owns the shop I work at has Snap-on and seeing as he'll still be wrenching in twenty years, it's a solid investment.

 

[The Fall]

By and large I'm very happy with my Craftsman tools, especially my older ones.

Me too.

 

[PugetDude]

I'm happy with my Craftsman hand tools. They've given me decades of good service. I started buying them right out of college, and continued for the next twenty years. I've used and abused them quite a bit for a DIYer.
Probably less than a dozen have been replaced under warranty- walked out with a no-hassle new replacement every time.

I'm not a professional mechanic, have never financed a tool purchase, and don't select tools based on peer pressure. My boxes are probably 90% Craftsman, with a few other name brands- Channelock, Vise Grip, SK, Proto, Klein, for the older stuff, Knipex and Irwin for the newer stuff. (yeah, the newer blue-handled Irwin Pliers- they're actually pretty nice. (flame on...) My philosophy has always been that if a tool feels good and works properly, I keep it. If not, I replace it. The only tool I am almost exclusively brand loyal to is Estwing. I really like their hammers and own over a dozen varieties.

I do hate what Eddie Lampert has done to Sears; it's like watching a hidden camera video of Elder Abuse in a Nursing Home. But, we survived the demise of Montgomery Wards and JCP turning to soft goods, so we'll survive the eventual demise of Sears, too.

HD, Lowes, ACE, and HF will serve the walk-in DIY crowd, step-up brands will be available online and at industrial retailers and the pros can still make their payments to their beloved ice cream truck every two weeks.

Life WILL go on without Sears.

But the GJ thread count will certainly suffer.

 

[jrockford]

I personally think there are better ratchets, sockets and wrenches out there for the money at the moment. I would not put them on the same level as Lowes and HD. 90%+ of my mechanics tools are old Cman stuff so I am nowhere near a hater and my toolbox would be empty without them.

A lot of Craftsman stuff is now hit or miss, but their USA stuff mentioned in the deals thread can be quite the bargain. Magnet pickup tools, gasket scrapers, adjustable wrenches, pry bars.. all awesome stuff, US made and offered at great prices when on sale. I bought all that stuff for at least 60% the last few months.

 

[Codejack]

A lot of Craftsman stuff is now hit or miss, but their USA stuff mentioned in the deals thread can be quite the bargain.

I've got 11 old Craftsman USA combination wrenches that are garbage.

"Made in the USA" is no guarantee of quality.

 

[JazzBlueRT]

I do hate what Eddie Lampert has done to Sears; it's like watching a hidden camera video of Elder Abuse in a Nursing Home. But, we survived the demise of Montgomery Wards and JCP turning to soft goods, so we'll survive the eventual demise of Sears, too.

Every retailer is scrambling to do what Sears has built into ever one of their stores. In store pickup. Even Amazon has their "Amazon Locker" program.

How Sears has not conquered retails is simply astounding. Every other stores "in store" pickup is a clusterfsck.

 

[7avalon7]

I personally think there are better ratchets, sockets and wrenches out there for the money at the moment. I would not put them on the same level as Lowes and HD. 90%+ of my mechanics tools are old Cman stuff so I am nowhere near a hater and my toolbox would be empty without them.

A lot of Craftsman stuff is now hit or miss, but their USA stuff mentioned in the deals thread can be quite the bargain. Magnet pickup tools, gasket scrapers, adjustable wrenches, pry bars.. all awesome stuff, US made and offered at great prices when on sale. I bought all that stuff for at least 60% the last few months.

"Made in the USA" is no guarantee of quality.

Agree with both. Made in USA is not guarantee of quality. Having said that, I (like others here) been buying current CF (US/Chinese/Taiwan made) using points which make them a bargain. And like @jrockford, my toolbox would be empty without them.

We can argue price and/vs quality until end of the world, but for most people, these are plenty good to use, especially when you are picking them up at cents per dollar (cheaper than HF)

Just hope Sears survive long enough for me to get every tools I need. Will that ever happen?

 

[Scout3918]

Just hope Sears survive long enough for me to get every tools I need. Will that ever happen?

I think Ace sells craftsman.

Didn't Craftsman brand get sold or did that fall through?

BTW, most my Craftsman hand tools are older and I am happy with them. But I only use few times a month around house/garage.

 

[6PTsocket]

Every retailer is scrambling to do what Sears has built into ever one of their stores. In store pickup. Even Amazon has their "Amazon Locker" program.

How Sears has not conquered retails is simply astounding. Every other stores "in store" pickup is a clusterfsck.

Nonsense. I pick up from Walmart all the time, stuff ordered from Walmart com. Whatever I am looking for, Sears virtually never has a competitive price. When it is on sale they barely match price. As a matter of fact, they are selling a Craftsman replacement part that I needed, for 6 and change and want 12 bucks to ship it and will not bring into a store or service center. I asked. I found it elsewhere for 4 and change, delivered to the store. They ****. I can't wait for them to go under to put an end to the whining. Why don't all you Sears lovers start a Go Fund Me and bail them out? How will life go on after they close? LMFAO.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[Codejack]

OK, I did a little research, and this was an interesting find from 1992:

https://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/couran...&date=&author=&pub=&edition=&startpage=&desc=

"Sears dropped Stanley, effective Jan. 1, as a supplier of wrenches, ratchets and sockets bearing the Craftsman brand. "

This is when Danaher got the contract. Danaher was at the end of an ugly union fight and were moving production to cheaper factories, even if it was still in the USA, so quality was ****, at least for a few years.

This is when I bought my stuff, so I can easily believe that the new stuff is better.

At the same time, that is how brand names are tarnished; Sears tried to cut costs, so they cut corners, screwed over workers, and it has cost them in customer loyalty. That's how it is supposed to work.

From 2010-2016, Sears has gone from 3,500 stores to 695, and another 97 are or will be closed this year; trying to cut costs.

Not that it matters; they just sold the entire Craftsman line to Black & Decker.

 

[PugetDude]

From 2010-2016, Sears has gone from 3,500 stores to 695, and another 97 are or will be closed this year; trying to cut costs.

695-97=598
Harbor Freight has over 700 stores now.
So, who's the better businessman- Eric Schmidt or Eddie Lampert?

 

[Codejack]

To be fair, HF doesn't sell the variety of things that Sears does.

Still, when the competition has you beat on price, quality and customer service, you can only coast on reputation for so long.

 

[48548]

The reason I hate crapsman, and I own a lot is because they don't make anything... just the lowest bidder... I love snap on, but also plomb, proto, wiha, wera.... the brands I love make most of the stuff and don't rebrand... that being said I love made in Spain adjustables....

 

[finn]

Home Depot, Lowes, your local grocery chain, local Tire chain, or even your local gasoline retailer don't make anything either, so I imagine you hate all of them too.

What does Walgreens make?

 

[jrockford]

The reason I hate crapsman, and I own a lot is because they don't make anything... just the lowest bidder... I love snap on, but also plomb, proto, wiha, wera.... the brands I love make most of the stuff and don't rebrand... that being said I love made in Spain adjustables....

Purchasing from "the lowest bidder" is manufacturing 101.