Generator Selection and Install

[Firstram]

See if you can source a tri-fuel conversion kit for it. It will be a real hassle keeping that generator full of gasoline during an extended outage.

 

[Rick_Br]

I haven't thrown out tri fuel yet but my current thinking is gasoline. My starting point - in the 10 years in central NC we have had only one outage - less than 24 hours. I can't seem to get an estimate for running a gas line but I am thinking $1000+. Tri fuel conversion probably isn't going to be cheap and a new tri fuel is going to add several hundred to the price. The interlock is not going to be cheap either. So maybe $2500 all in - just my uninformed opinion at this point.

I have a shed 20 or so feet from the house that I would plan on using when the generator is running. This will provide protection of the generator from inclimate weather and noise reduction. I would have to have gas on hand and have to periodically refill it. It that gets to be a hassle then maybe a tri fuel future conversion - it is a good suggestion to at least see if that is possible.

The deal breaker would be not being able to use an interlock for my panel - I don't want a bunch of extension cords strewn around the house.

Rick

 

[dave*99]

I haven't thrown out tri fuel yet but my current thinking is gasoline. My starting point - in the 10 years in central NC we have had only one outage - less than 24 hours. I can't seem to get an estimate for running a gas line but I am thinking $1000+. Tri fuel conversion probably isn't going to be cheap and a new tri fuel is going to add several hundred to the price. The interlock is not going to be cheap either. So maybe $2500 all in - just my uninformed opinion at this point.

I have a shed 20 or so feet from the house that I would plan on using when the generator is running. This will provide protection of the generator from inclimate weather and noise reduction. I would have to have gas on hand and have to periodically refill it. It that gets to be a hassle then maybe a tri fuel future conversion - it is a good suggestion to at least see if that is possible.

The deal breaker would be not being able to use an interlock for my panel - I don't want a bunch of extension cords strewn around the house.

Rick

How about Generlink?

GENERLINK | GENERLINK Transfer Switch

GenerLink transfer switches work with portable generators from manufactures like FIRMAN, DuroMax, Generac, Champion, and many more. View our Compatibility Guide [link to guide] for a list of compatible generators.

globalpowerproducts.com

 

[Rick_Br]

Dave - what is the difference with a transfer switch vs interlock. It appears they both an "extension" cord that plug into a socket. Maybe a transfer switch doesn't require another panel breaker or panel reconfigure? Do you hut down the main breaker with a transfer switch?

On another note it does appear that the Honda EM5000SX does have a natural gas conversion kit available.

 

[dave*99]

A whole house transfer switch is installed upstream of the main breaker. You have to configure your panel as a subpanel.if the switch has a main breaker. If you use a whole house transfer switch, you have to separate the grounds and neutrals and make it a four wire feed. An interlock is downstream of the main breaker and it forces you to turn off the main breaker and turn on the generator breaker to feed power in on the downstream side of the main

 

[dave*99]

In reading your posts, I expect an interlock or the generlink I posted are your best options

 

[Rick_Br]

Thanks Dave- I guess I always thought of a transfer switch that worked automatically (like with a generac). More complicated to install but nothing to do in the outage automatically kicks in)

 

[dave*99]

Thanks Dave- I guess I always thought of a transfer switch that worked automatically (like with a generac). More complicated to install but nothing to do in the outage automatically kicks in)

That’s an automatic transfer switch

 

[larry4406]

I’m my area, if you use an automatic transfer switch, the connected generator must be able to handle 100% of the connected load without manual intervention.

Yes the transfer switch can use load shed modules to automatically drop out loads but the person cannot be involved.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

a transfer switch for an entire electrical service will be far more expensive and involved (automatic or manual) than an interlock.
As Dave99 stated, the transfer switch has to go between the meter and main service panel so it requires disconnection of the power feed by the PoCo. not to mention the reconfiguration of the main service panel into a subpanel...

 

[Two Door]

An advantage of a manual transfer switch (automatic as well?) is that it allows you to add breakers, which will be the circuits you want to drive from the generator. It is a toggle between the incoming power and generator power for those circuits.

An interlock is just a sliding plate that lets you engage either the main breaker or the generator breaker but not both. If one is available for your panel it is something you can easily DIY.

 

[Rick_Br]

Let's divert to enclosures - as I said above - the plan, when the generator was running, was to put the generator in a 10 x 12 shed with a ridge vent, 5' door opening and a small window. So I used AI (the almighty internet) to check this out - all results said no - not safe. Again using AI I asked can a generator be run in snow/rain storm - again no not safe. Hmm. Then I looked for generator enclosures - they all appear to be small sheds, containers of some sort - much smaller than my shed. Is it really unsafe to run a generator in a shed?

Rick

 

[dave*99]

Let's divert to enclosures - as I said above - the plan, when the generator was running, was to put the generator in a 10 x 12 shed with a ridge vent, 5' door opening and a small window. So I used AI (the almighty internet) to check this out - all results said no - not safe. Again using AI I asked can a generator be run in snow/rain storm - again no not safe. Hmm. Then I looked for generator enclosures - they all appear to be small sheds, containers of some sort - much smaller than my shed. Is it really unsafe to run a generator in a shed?

Rick

Perhaps the thinking is when it catches fire only the generator and the small enclosure is lost? Venting the exhaust is another important point. Carbon monoxide etc.

 

[Firstram]

Nobody is going to walk into a small enclosure like they could a shed. You could pipe the exhaust out of the shed away from the door and windows but it isn’t the best idea!

 

[ripperd]

If generators actually didnt work in the rain they would be pretty useless. The manufacturers have to design and plan for that.

Our portable inverter generator has ran many hours outside, uncovered, and in the rain. Has not been a problem.

The only situation I could see being problematic is heavy or windblown snow. If it packs into the cooling air intakes and chokes off air movement I could see it causing the generator to overheat. In that situation something might be useful. But the little tents over the top are not really going to help with windblown snow. That is going to require a more engineered enclosure like what a permanent standby generator has.

 

[Rick_Br]

I can't argue with your experience of running in rain storms. However I can't find any internet reference that says it is ok to run in rain without a cover. That may,be legal CYA

 

[ericm]

Is it really unsafe to run a generator in a shed?

If you're not staying in the shed while the generator's running, and the shed has sufficient ventilation, it should be fine. People run cars in garages with open doors all the time, and cars make a lot more exhaust.

Back it up to the door so the exhaust is facing out. Make sure the wind is not blowing from that direction. If there's a window or door on the other side for a cross breeze that will work even better. Or you can install a fan to pull in or push out air from the shed, and run it off the generator. It's up to you to decide what sufficient ventilation is.

Newer generators have CO monitors which will shut off the generator if they detect CO, for an extra level of safety.

 

[Rick_Br]

Newer generators have CO monitors which will shut off the generator if they detect CO, for an extra level of safety.

That's a good point - I have seen that in the specs but had forgotten about it
Rick

 

[dave*99]

If you're not staying in the shed while the generator's running, and the shed has sufficient ventilation, it should be fine. People run cars in garages with open doors all the time, and cars make a lot more exhaust.

Cars have emission controls and catalytic converters. Some references suggest a portable 5000W generator emits as much carbon monoxide as 450 cars.

PS - don't spill gas when refueling in the shed....

 

[ericm]

Cars have emission controls and catalytic converters. Some references suggest a portable 5000W generator emits as much carbon monoxide as 450 cars.

Generators do have emissions controls. My Honda EU7000is has EFI and a catalytic converter.

PS - don't spill gas when refueling in the shed....

Like anywhere, if you spill a lot of gas, let it evaporate before starting the engine.

 

[dave*99]

Some sophisticated and expensive Generators do have emissions controls. My Honda EU7000is has EFI and a catalytic converter.



Like anywhere, if you spill a lot of gas, let it evaporate before starting the engine.

FIFY

 

[Rick_Br]

Let's meander back to selection. I have an opportunity to buy a Honda EM5000SX from a friend. He got it in a trade from the original owner - it hasn't been run much at all. It is 18 years old!

I went to take a look today. It appears to just come off the dealership floor. Clean - no scratches. It started right up and ran without trouble. He wants $1000 for it - about 1/3 of the new cost.

Looking at the specifications for a 2008 versus a 2026 - they are not much different.
it has the intelligent voltage regulation, auto throttle, electric and recoil start, 2 120 volt and 1 240 volt outlet. All the appropriate circuit breakers. 7000 watt for 10 seconds, 5000 starting and 4500 running watts. Noise is rated at 63 decibels for 50% load and 66 for full load. We were standing 8 feet away while it was running and having a conversation with no difficulty. 6-1/2 gallon tank and a run time of 10-1/2 hours at half load. The only technology not included is then CO minder and blue tooth connectivity.

My friend has had it for 6 or 7 months and has not run it for anything other than testing. When he got it he put in a new battery, changed the oil and changed the oil filter. He has the cable for connecting to the interlock outlet - he says 40" but I'm betting it is the standard 25 foot cable. He will throw in the interlock outlet but not the kit which is OK because it might not work in my panel.

Given that folks all through this thread say Honda is the best - is $1000 for an 18year old generator in very good condition a fair price. My concerns are no warranty and co minder technology.

OK - your turn

Rick

 

[dave*99]

Looks like a great price on a solid piece of equipment. If I were you I'd buy it provided I gave up on using NG. I know I can get a NG conversion kit for my Champion. You probably can get one for the Honda. I can also probably sell mine and buy a similar tri-fuel for the same sum.

 

[theoldwizard1]

How about Generlink?

GENERLINK | GENERLINK Transfer Switch

GenerLink transfer switches work with portable generators from manufactures like FIRMAN, DuroMax, Generac, Champion, and many more. View our Compatibility Guide [link to guide] for a list of compatible generators.

globalpowerproducts.com

Nice, but expensive !

 

[dave*99]

Yes they are expensive. Some POCOs rent them, some offer financing. There are probably some installations where it makes sense. If your panel is full, no interlock available, inconvenient to run the inlet wire etc..... maybe you are a candidate. If your AHJ requires you to go AFCI on a panel change etc. - all that adds up too.

 

[Rick_Br]

Looks like a great price on a solid piece of equipment. If I were you I'd buy it provided I gave up on using NG. I know I can get a NG conversion kit for my Champion. You probably can get one for the Honda. I can also probably sell mine and buy a similar tri-fuel for the same sum.

I did check and there are NG conversion kits for this model
Rick

 

[dave*99]

I did check and there are NG conversion kits for this model
Rick

So post 90 shows a trifuel Champion for $661. And the used Honda plus NG conversion would be about $1150.
Which do you prefer?

 

[Rick_Br]

Dave I see your point. There are some differences - the post 90 unit is only 4000 running watts versus 4500. Its decibel rating is 10% higher. it is 100# lighter - that could be good or bad - it seems heavier may imply better built. Finally very early on folks were saying the best is Honda. I am not planning on installing NG at this point but would like to at least have that as a future option.

The other point I didn't mention is that this would be a trade for labor my friend owes. I realize that doesn't mean its free but it only represents labor of a retired guy who does this for fun.

I haven't made a final decision but I am leaning towards the Honda. Still looking fir rpos and cons though

Rick

 

[theoldwizard1]

I have a shed 20 or so feet from the house that I would plan on using when the generator is running. This will provide protection of the generator from inclimate weather and noise reduction. I would have to have gasoline on hand and have to periodically refill it.

There are some down sides to running on gasoline

• Never store a generator with fuel in the carburetor. Even if you use alcohol free gasoline with a fuel stabilizer, long storage can gum up the carb. When you are going shut down your generator, shut off the fuel and let the engine die. Do not use the On/Off switch.
• You need at least 2 fuel cans, with at least 2 gallons each (5 gallons each would be better). The fuel in these cans should be rotated at least once a year.

The deal breaker would be not being able to use an interlock for my panel - I don't want a bunch of extension cords strewn around the house.

Use of an interlock has nothing to do a gasoline generator !

You need a generator inlet installed on the house



This is connected to the generator interlock inm your breaker panel.

Buy a 50 ft RV extension cord. You will have to change the female end to match the generator inlet on the house.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Thanks Dave- I guess I always thought of a transfer switch that worked automatically (like with a generac). More complicated to install but nothing to do in the outage automatically kicks in)

No transfer switch or generator interlock are automatic. They all require some kind of manual interaction.

 

[theoldwizard1]

the plan, when the generator was running, was to put the generator in a 10 x 12 shed with a ridge vent, 5' door opening and a small window.
.
.
.
Is it really unsafe to run a generator in a shed?

If you close the door and windows, that ridge event is NOT enough !

 

[theoldwizard1]

Dave I see your point. There are some differences - the post 90 unit is only 4000 running watts versus 4500. Its decibel rating is 10% higher.

Why do you think you need more power ? The list of what you want to run is under 3000W ! Just don't run the microwave and coffee maker at the same time !

Finally very early on folks were saying the best is Honda.

I won't argue that. Champion has been around long enough to prove it is a good brand. Honda has limited choices and the prices are much higher.

 

[dave*99]

I did check and there are NG conversion kits for this model
Rick

What is your gasoline situation? For instance, I have 3 cans @ 6 gallons each that are usually fresh for my jet ski during summer. In winter the boat is parked here with lots of stabilized gas.
That’s why I have been slow to put a NG conversion on my generator.

How do you plan to prep?

 

[Rick_Br]

How do you plan to prep?

hat I haven't given a lot of thought to. Right now I generally have a 5 gallon can that is used for the lawn tractor. With a generator I would likely add at least one 5 gallon can - maybe 2. I would rotate them for lawn tractor usage and as they aged probably dump them n the car. As I write this down NG is sounding a lot easier - maybe I need to at least get the estimate fora line.

Rick

 

[mike93lx]

After owning a couple traditional and a couple inverters, I won't buy anything but an inverter. They are so much quieter.

I had a briggs and Stratton that I sold to get a champion with electric start. It doesn't have much run time, but it's been great so far.

I keep the tank full and 15 gal of gas in cans ready. That's plenty to cover any likely outage, and if it gets tight, I can go get more

 

[dave*99]

hat I haven't given a lot of thought to. Right now I generally have a 5 gallon can that is used for the lawn tractor. With a generator I would likely add at least one 5 gallon can - maybe 2. I would rotate them for lawn tractor usage and as they aged probably dump them n the car. As I write this down NG is sounding a lot easier - maybe I need to at least get the estimate fora line.

Rick

My starting point - in the 10 years in central NC we have had only one outage - less than 24 hours

You and I have spent more time typing into this thread than we have suffering from an outage over some number of years.

Do you have city water or a well?

 

[Rick_Br]

Do you have city water or a well

City water and sewer, no sump pump, central air (won't be run via the generator), Natural gas heat, hot water and range.

I don't have any 220 circuits I need to power in an outage but is a 240 generator outlet of any advantage for the panel interlock install?

And I agree Dave - as oldwizard said I think I am in paralysis through analysis. I need to get my head organized.

Rick

 

[mike93lx]

is a 240 generator outlet of any advantage for the panel interlock install?

No. You can use a 120v generator and just need an adapter plug or cord.

If you have any multi wire branch circuits, they will need to be turned off in addition to your 240v circuits.

How big is the a/c unit (tons)?

 

[dave*99]

City water and sewer, no sump pump, central air (won't be run via the generator), Natural gas heat, hot water and range.

I don't have any 220 circuits I need to power in an outage but is a 240 generator outlet of any advantage for the panel interlock install?

And I agree Dave - as oldwizard said I think I am in paralysis through analysis. I need to get my head organized.

Rick

And now I'll put you in a tailspin. An 8 hour outage will have minimal impact on your life. A flashlight and a few candles and keeping the refrigerator door closed is all that is needed. And it's an extremely rare event at your location. Toilets will flush, water will flow, house will not get dangerously cold or hot.

So consider an incremental approach. Just to get out of your own head and be able to move on.

If you buy the $661 tri-fuel, and add an inlet, you will be able to run your household. 10 gallons of gas should get you through a 12 hour outage running the generator continuously, and we all know that is not necessary. My POCO shows estimated time to restoration on their app so I can plan fuel needs during an outage.

Once you have a generator, wait it out before you go further. AFTER (or maybe even IF) you experience your next outage and see how it goes, then decide if you want to add a natural gas line. We have explored all the technical possibilities in this thread, but the need to execute, the liability from not executing etc. are important. Some folks will implement a system just because they sleep better having it yet knowing they will rarely use it. Which one are you? Are you buying a capability to run your house during a rare outage or just buying peace of mind? Either path is fine and picking one will allow you to move on.

As you can see, this thread is so long that the already answered technical questions are returning full circle. That will be followed by the "go look at post **" posts.

 

[larry4406]

I don't have any 220 circuits I need to power in an outage but is a 240 generator outlet of any advantage for the panel interlock install?

No. You can use a 120v generator and just need an adapter plug or cord.

If you have any multi wire branch circuits, they will need to be turned off in addition to your 240v circuits.

If one uses a 120V generator inlet box powered by a 120V generator along with a main panel interlock, then:

• You are powering only one of the two bus bars in the main panel.
• Then since the bus bars alternate in the panel, you will only be able to power a 120V circuit should it be on the same bar that is back fed from the generator inlet.
• You will also be able to power one leg on a 240V circuit which is not recommended (keep all 240V circuits off).
• So if you decide to use a 120V inlet box, you need to move all of your 120V critical circuits to the same bus bar.

If you use a 240V generator inlet box powered by a 240V generator along with a main panel interlock, then:

• You are powering both bus bars in the main panel.
• This means you are capable of powering any circuit within the limits of your generator.
• You do not need to move critical circuits to certain bus bars
• I find this method to be advantageous

I do not understand the adapter plug or cord @mike93lx mentions. If it means using a 240V inlet box with a cord from a 120V generator where the cord is jumped to apply voltage to both legs:

• This will indeed provide power to both bus bars.
• Then you can power any 120V circuit in the panel.
• The 240V circuits need to stay off as they will only get 120V and I doubt they will be happy.
• I am not sure this is kosher, but I am not a sparky

As a reminder, with the panel interlock method, you the user need to provide the load management function (enable/disable) the various breakers so as to not overload the generator.