Homemade electrolysis. What do you use?

[bagged89s10]

Well my e-tank is frozen. I had 2 vises in there cooking but the below 0 degrees Fahrenheit is just too cold for it.

 

[bareass172]

I'm still re-reading this thread along with a million other links and videos I've dug up as there sure is plenty of info on this on the web. I wrote a separate post about having problems with my battery charger:
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=320789
But am now wondering if I'm overlooking something else... I'm here to ask everyone to check what I've spent almost 2 weeks trying to get to work right.

I'm trying to de-rust the inside of a motorcycle gas tank, so I'm working with problems right from the start in that I have limited access and my tank *is* the e-tank. I have a Schumacher charger that has 2A, 10A, and 50A (short duration) settings. I attached a pic of my current rig after all the changes.

I filled the tank with a 4:1 mix of degreaser and oxy clean and let it soak overnight to remove old fuel, crud, whatever and then rinsed the hell out of it to make sure it was clean.

I started simple - I made a wood block to hold a piece of rebar. I drilled a hole in the underside of the block so it would "center" on the gas cap hole and not slide around. I bent the rebar so it went in the tank about 14" and didn't touch anything. I wrapped the tip of the rebar with electrical tape as a precaution against shorting, but haven't had any issues. I filled the tank (~5 gallons) with water and about a cup (maybe a little more) of washing soda. I fired it up nice and simple with the ground connected to the petcock threads which were bare metal and the positive clamped to the rebar on the 2A setting.

It started but didn't do much over the course of a day. I got the same rusty gunk on top you guys get so I know it was working but noticed that the tank would only really work for about 15-30 minutes and then the amp meter on the charger would fade out and the only way to get it to bounce back was completely cleaning the rebar anode with a wire wheel, then it was good for another 15-30 minutes. Over the next few days I experimented with a lot.

-I switch between the 2A and 10A settings
-I drained and redid the water with more and less wash soda
-I degreased the tank again
-I put spring clamps on top of the charger clamps to be sure they had a firm grip
-I tried multiple other ground locations on the tank
-I tried multiple grounds at once using extra alligator clips connected to the charger ground
-I added a "gasket" between the tank and the wood block -in case- (in some crazy way) the wood was getting wet and conducting (bypassing) the tank
-I added a battery in series
-I drilled a small dimple in the top of the rebar and SOLDERED a wire to it to be sure I had a good connection

I know I'm way over-complicating this simple process, but I'm at a loss as to why I'm getting such poor results. What I've done is just to be certain of what is or is not a "weak link". When I put the battery in the circuit it really started to work well but then I started seeing the same tapering off of things after 15-30 minutes. If I didn't know better, it seems like I'm having a continuity issue through the solution because it's VERY strong with a clean anode but then completely weak until I clean it again.

I'm still reading on this now, but appreciate any insight anyone can offer. Thanks!

 

[Outlawmws]

BA, What solution ratio are you using for the Soup?

Have you considered using a graphite rod instead of the rebar?

I know this has been done by others to clean the inside of a tank.

You might also start with Jasco Metal etch (Phosphoric acid) to cut the worst out, and finish with the E-tank process.

 

[Outlawmws]

Hmmm:

I filled the tank (~5 gallons) with water and about a cup (maybe a little more) of washing soda.

This seems pretty strong to me. I use maybe 1/4 cup for a 5 gallon bucket of the soup. But I also use Spa-Chem PH Plus, not washing soda.

 

[bareass172]

I read a mix of info on the amount to run, anywhere from 1-3 tbsp/gallon so I experimented kinda all over the spectrum. Given that it seemed (to me) I was having some issues with continuity I thought maybe it might have been part of my issue - and others echoed the same thought in discussion over this.
I thought about graphite but for this setup I felt rebar might be easiest to work in the tank. This particular tank is very oddly shaped on the inside/underside so I'm very limited at the opening. I do know it can be done on tanks, there are a million other write-ups about that specifically on the net.
I decided to do this instead of Jasco or the many other options for 3 reasons. First, it's the least destructive (not that Jasco is bad, but many suggestions use more destructive chems). 2nd, because it's a closed vessel I knew I could trust this to get into places I could not see. 3rd, because I've been waiting for an excuse to do this for a long time... ;-)

I think tomorrow I'm going to dump it and just throw the Jasco in it. I had hoped not to, but it's been almost 2 weeks fiddling with this and I just want to get it done. I'm not on a time crunch or anything, I just want to get onto other things.

 

[Fretters]

How much do you mean exactly, when you say it's tapering off? The current draw will frequently drop somewhat after a part has been connected for a while, but as long as it still draws current, it's still going. If you have any pieces of suitable scrap cast iron knocking about, they are far more useful than stuff like rebar. Mild steel corrodes with a vengeance when used as the anode.

Have you tried a different power supply, btw? There's always the chance that could be the cause of your problem.

 

[bareass172]

It was tapering off down to like .3-.4A even when it was on the 10A setting (this was without the battery in series). I realize it will taper some, but this seemed excessive. For my application (inside a motorcycle tank) I am not sure what I could have used besides rebar as an anode. Maybe some simple flat bar or something, but I didn't have any flat I wanted to scrap.
I finally broke down today and said screw it. I dumped it all, ran some Jasco in it to finish the job and then did the usual clean/rinse/treat to prevent flash rust moving forward. I still suspect the charger as my main culprit, but after all that fiddling around with it I was done. I'm going to convert an old ATX PSU from an old PC of mine into a supply and try that next time around. I have a nice bench supply but I'm not taking any chances with that thing.

I think you all confirmed what I suspected - my setup was sound, so it may have been the charger. Thanks!

 

[Outlawmws]

BA I'm not so sure you are in any issues other than the size of the anode for the tanks. you have a lot of tank surface areas vs, the small surface of the rebar.

Even with more equitable surface areas my charger drops to maybe 1 amp and just keeps chugging.

Fretters he's working inside a Motorcycle tank, so hard to get a lot of metal inside as an anode.

 

[Fretters]

BA I'm not so sure you are in any issues other than the size of the anode for the tanks. you have a lot of tank surface areas vs, the small surface of the rebar.

Even with more equitable surface areas my charger drops to maybe 1 amp and just keeps chugging.

Same here. 1/3 or so of an amp isn't a bad draw for a small anode.

Fretters he's working inside a Motorcycle tank, so hard to get a lot of metal inside as an anode.

I never mentioned it being a big piece. That crappy modern, (obviously don't trash an old one), cast iron garden furniture comes in handy for breaking up for stuff like that. They usually tend to have lattice work patterns and such on table tops, spindly legs etc, so can provide some nice small pieces after a quick session with a sledgehammer.

 

[bareass172]

This is great news to hear then, and thanks for the feedback. I spent a lot of time fretting over this thinking something was wrong when in fact I was just limited in my setup. Again THANK YOU for this quantifiable information.
I'm still going to convert an old ATX PSU to test out next time around (why not, I have one and it's fun to tinker!) but at least I'll have a better idea moving forward of what to expect.

 

[1/2 Cup]

Guys, thank you all for your contributions to this thread, it makes an interesting read and I have learnt heaps, practical stuff that I can try with my Solar set up.

I am getting some great results with it at the moment.

Regards

 

[bareass172]

I have a question for all of you who have been doing this awhile. When I look at pictures of people's finished parts I usually see bright shiny steel. Everything I've ever done always finishes with a black layer of "stuff". I have to remove the parts from the E-tank and then scrub them off to remove *some* of the black, but there is often a heavy layer of black where the rust is and it just doesn't come off.
Is this common?
Am I doing anything wrong?
Can I stop it or can I get back to clean, shiny steel somehow?

I just bought a used lathe and I'm using electrolysis to clean up some of the precision parts that had rust specifically because it will not damage the precision surfaces.

TIA for your feedback!

 

[Outlawmws]

You can switch to Graphite and that should reduce the finished mess, but keep in mind, it is a conversion process, the black is what the rust converts to.

I can normally get it off with a nylon brush. if you have some left, you may need round 2 to get it all.

 

[bareass172]

Yuo can switch to Graphite and that should reduce the finished mess, but keep in mind, it is a conversion process, the black is what the rust converts to.

I can normally get it off with a nylon brush. if you have some left, you may need round 2 to get it all.

Thanks for at least letting me know I'm not crazy. So often I see gleaming steel and I thought maybe I wasn't finishing the process right. I'll try a brush and see if that improves my results.
Thanks!

 

[Fretters]

Thanks for at least letting me know I'm not crazy. So often I see gleaming steel and I thought maybe I wasn't finishing the process right. I'll try a brush and see if that improves my results.
Thanks!

Looking like it just came off the factory floor is not something you'll generally get without further finishing, after electrolysis.

My preference is a soft bristle brass brush, (suede brushes seem to fit the bill best). A soft stainless bristle at a push. Nylon pan/kitchen scourers usually do most of the cleaning work though, for me, and if you get the odd patch of rust or paint which is truly stuck on there, either scrape it off with a coin or a blunt knife edge.

You'll oft have to put something back in the vat after you've cleaned it up first time. You won't always get everything off in the first session, so just whip it out of the vat, scrub and/or brush and then pop it back into the vat.

 

[Gidge]

I use a 5 gallon plastic bucket and a piece of rebar as my sacrificial metal.

Thanks for this thread, It has me thinking of larger applications (e.g. Cast iron frying pans that will not fit on a 5-gallon bucket).

 

[1/2 Cup]

Looking like it just came off the factory floor is not something you'll generally get without further finishing, after electrolysis.

My preference is a soft bristle brass brush, (suede brushes seem to fit the bill best). A soft stainless bristle at a push. Nylon pan/kitchen scourers usually do most of the cleaning work though, for me, and if you get the odd patch of rust or paint which is truly stuck on there, either scrape it off with a coin or a blunt knife edge.

You'll oft have to put something back in the vat after you've cleaned it up first time. You won't always get everything off in the first session, so just whip it out of the vat, scrub and/or brush and then pop it back into the vat.

Great advice, I just use a scotch bite pad and clean the item under running water and if need be give it another go.

Regards

 

[bareass172]

I'm going to try scrubbing and then running a second time. I have a very small setup right now because I'm doing small-ish parts, but a lot of them. Had I realized I could only fit a few at at time I would have gone bigger up front but it's getting the job done and it's basically a free helper. Thanks for the support so far.

I have been thinking of trying the carbon/graphite electrodes so many seem to like. I used rebar in the past and am using 2 pieces of 1" pipe tied together right now - both are OK but require frequent cleaning to be effective. Is there a specific shape or size I should look for? I was thinking of using carbon gouging rods (not copper clad) but am very open to suggestions. I had read rebar and scrap steel work well, and they've been ok but require such frequent cleaning, is there a shape or type that excels - or is it mostly about what fits in your vat? I am also open to suggestions of where to buy carbon - I've checked Amazon, eBay, McMaster-Carr, etc...
For those using graphite, how long should I expect it to last? I had thought it was a permanent electrode since it wouldn't need cleaning, but after reading I see that it will still erode from the process.
Thanks!

 

[1/2 Cup]

BA I have found that have to clean my anodes, which are just mild steel plates every time I use the bath and that seems to work well.

Regards

 

[Outlawmws]

BA My old anodes are 1/4" mild steel plates about 6" wide in a big U in a bucket, and while they look like they have been buried for 100 years, they are still OK to use. I would expect Graphite to last much better

A larger or more surface area will do better; I bought six or eight bars off Eprey about 2" wide, & plan those for the bigger tub I keep procrastinating to setup.

 

[kwhunter]

The Anodes must be iron/steel, NOT graphite.
Here's an article, though not scientific, that explains the physics of the process better.
Enjoy.

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/andyspatch/rust.htm

 

[Outlawmws]

Since the word graphite is not ever mentioned in that article, where are you getting this information? Using graphite as the anode is well established and proven to work.

 

[Bcom]

I use an old battery charger from the 70s, a large cooler,and some rebar.

 

[torqueman2002]

mrpete222/tubalcain/lyle has made a series of YouTube videos about rust removal, including electrolysis.

As you may know, he is a retired HS shop teacher and his videos are well commented and detailed; some may find them a bit long winded, but I like them.

Here is the latest/summary, for full details, check the links to his set-up and day-to-day progress.
TIPS #314 Olympics of Rust Removal pt 3 MOLASSES tubalcain lyle

<a href="<iframe width=" 560"="" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/NNxyFAsxWW0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""><iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/NNxyFAsxWW0" allowfullscreen="" width="560" height="315" frameborder="0"></iframe>

 

[6PTsocket]

That's about right. Some types of paint will literally flake off in the vat, whilst others seem to resist at all costs. I've found applying a little brake fluid or paint stripper several hours before popping something in the vat helps for paint.

Regarding grease, you're better off trying to remove that beforehand. White spirit, (mineral spirit), or paraffin, (kerosene), which is my favourite degreaser.

Don't use a metallic container btw, even if it is enamelled. It only needs one pin ***** in the enamel and it will start to corrode at a rate of knots from there on in. Tested it out last year with a metallic container. It only managed a few days before it tripped out the relay I'd put on it for the specific purpose of disconnecting the supply if there was leakage.

I personally use Sodium Bicarbonate for the solution. Sodium Carbonate seems to be the most recommended option though. Both work fine. About one tablespoon to a gallon of water is all you need. You don't need to chuck shedloads of current at the process either. You'll just degrade your anodes more quickly for little to no gain. Even with large stuff, 1.5A is ample. I normally vary current between 500mA to 1.5A max.

Thank you. This is the first post I have seen that mentioned optimum current. With a variable supply I can vary the voltage to optimize the current. Does varying the amount of washing soda or increasing the anode area vary the conductivity? I would think this would affect the voltage needed to push the desired current.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[Outlawmws]

A larger anode area to me helps two fold as you have more anode surface available which helps if the part has a large surface area, and the anode will load up with crud slower.

Very large parts will need more anode area need more power. I saw one setup for a truck frame and they essentially made a giant "water bed frame" in the yard, lined it with plastic, made a rebar anode grid on bricks that emulated the truck frame approximately, set the frame on other blocks, another grid on top and filled and mixed the electrolyte. The power source was a DC Arc welder...

 

[My Old Tools]

I improved my setup considerably by:
1) upgrading to 12"x14" graphite plates at each end of the tank
2) picking up a real regulated power supply.

I found a nice NOS Lambda current regulated power supply on the auction site. I tried a new Chinese one first. It just wouldn't ever put out its rated power no matter what I did to it. The Lambda will sit there and crank out its rated power for weeks on end without a hiccup. With the graphite plates you still need to clean them occasionally, but not nearly as often. I just hit them with a soft brass wheel on the angle grinder, GENTLY.

 

[Craptain]

Thank you. This is the first post I have seen that mentioned optimum current. With a variable supply I can vary the voltage to optimize the current. Does varying the amount of washing soda or increasing the anode area vary the conductivity? I would think this would affect the voltage needed to push the desired current.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Yes you should optimize the current. What that is depends on the subject size (area). A little experimentation is in order. Also as you presume the amount of soda or whatever you are using does make a difference in conductivity. Pure water does not conduct but as you add soda, and dissolve it the conductivity increases. I find that about 2 cups for approximately 30 gall tank is more than enough. I can achieve my usual current of about 1/2 to 1 amp with a regular 12v power supply or charger. In fact I usually put a bulb in series to limit the current.
Just give it a go and add soda until you are satisfied with the results.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

 

[DonglordActual]

Electrolysis results! I used a plastic paint bucket for a container and steel rebar that has some kind of black coating on it for an anode. My electrolyte was washing soda added to tap water. I probably should have used deionized water because I got a lot of carbon-like buildup on the tool. 3M makes a scotchbrite pad that has aluminum oxide in it specifically for finishing metals. It removes the carbon quite well without doing any noticeable (to me) damage to the metal underneath.

One of my wrenches came out jet black and left black residue on anything it touched until i cleaned it. It looked cool but a wrench that leaves black marks on things isn't a very good wrench.

 

[Alchymist]

The black buildup on the tool is normal - every piece I've cleaned gets it more or less. I wipe/brush it off immediately after taking item out of the bath, dry and oil or prime asap. I use well water straight from the house - nothing added.

 

[Craptain]

Electrolysis results! I used a plastic paint bucket for a container and steel rebar that has some kind of black coating on it for an anode. My electrolyte was washing soda added to tap water. I probably should have used deionized water because I got a lot of carbon-like buildup on the tool. 3M makes a scotchbrite pad that has aluminum oxide in it specifically for finishing metals. It removes the carbon quite well without doing any noticeable (to me) damage to the metal underneath.

One of my wrenches came out jet black and left black residue on anything it touched until i cleaned it. It looked cool but a wrench that leaves black marks on things isn't a very good wrench.

That residue is totally normal. And as you noticed it cleans of easily. But protect the surface immediately.
No need for de-ionized water. In fact it is the impurities that along with the soda that enables the current to flow.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

 

[torqueman2002]

If you are not going to use the tool or part for a while, consider leaving the black stuff alone, just as shopdogsam does.
<a href="<iframe width=" 560"="" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/a7RXzsBmdpo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""><iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/a7RXzsBmdpo" allowfullscreen="" width="560" height="315" frameborder="0"></iframe>

 

[Alchymist]

If you are not going to use the tool or part for a while, consider leaving the black stuff alone, just as shopdogsam does.

Not so sure that's a good idea. My experience is that parts start to rust almost immediately if not cleaned and oiled or primed.

 

[torqueman2002]

Not so sure that's a good idea. My experience is that parts start to rust almost immediately if not cleaned and oiled or primed.

That's ^^ what I've been doing and my experience also.

However, in this video, shopdogsam doesn't rinse the parts at all, and has let them sit for months/years without rusting.

I heard about him while watching mrpetes videos on rust removal; even-though shopdogsam is colorful, I respect mrpetes opinion a lot and sam knows his stuff.

 

[DonglordActual]

I've oiled them with 3-in-1 almost as soon as I take them out of the electrolyte bath and things seem okay until I get either some cold black oxide solution or an oven outside to re-japan the wrenches with some asphalt. I cannot imagine the smell and noxious fumes from doing it inside.

Paint doesn't seem like a good idea to me from with how well pipe wrenches do with corrosion. I haven't seen an old red and black pipe wrench that wasn't rusted out in the southeast US.

 

[torqueman2002]

I was watching one of my favorite YouTube channels run by Keith Rucker of VintageMachinery.org. His post on Electrolysis explains the Black Deposit on iron/steel in a electrolysis bath nicely.

Rust Removal by Electrolysis: Use in the Restoration of Machinery
<a href="<iframe width=" 560"="" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/NKZv14-K71g" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""><iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/NKZv14-K71g" allowfullscreen="" width="560" height="315" frameborder="0"></iframe>

 

[bagged89s10]

I Coat everything with boiled linseed oil after an Electrolysis bath to prevent rust. It's by far the best coating I use as I can just paint right over it if I choose to.

 

[torqueman2002]

It sure does give a nice look.

Before e-tank.

After w/BLO.

 

[SRU1436]

Thanks to you guys this is what i made.





This Columbian is my test vise. This is my first time doing it, I like it. Still have the remaining parts cooking.

Matt

 

[drivesitfar]

FARRS: nice work. can you take and post up a few more pictures so I (we) can see what you used for a bar across the top and how you hooked up your E tank?

thanks

Doc: i still love that Parker with the swiveling dynamic jaw. i've never seen one in person so if you want to put it in your suitcase i'll buy lunch and beverages if you show up at my door with it.

cheers