Homemade electrolysis. What do you use?

[Outlawmws]

I'm liking the cast iron "container" idea for larger heavier items. A couple of strategic bricks, and...

Also the huge surface areas should collect crud at a lower rate.

SWMBO might not bee too keen on having a rusty old something in the yard though...

 

[taumac]

Usually depending on where wife shop is wether I get washing soda or baking soda. Generally publix has it if not than I just use baking soda.



Have a good one, Gerard

Florida GJers ( FGJ)
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The 5 Stitches Garage
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=211899

 

[Fretters]

SWMBO might not bee too keen on having a rusty old something in the yard though...

Build a wooden container/screen around it.

 

[Craptain]

Walmart is where I usually get the washing soda (cheapest by the larger 3lb? box). Otherwise you can get (PH+ IIRC) for pool and spa. Or if you can't find any of those you can actually turn baking soda (sodium bicarb) into washing soda (sodium carb). But unless you just can't find bicarb otherwise it is not worth the effort to go that route.

It really doesn't matter what you use. What you are trying to achieve is a few free electrons to allow the current to flow. You can use acid (as in battery or plating) but that has other issues. Using an alkaline (Base) is just a whole lot better and safer. Most of our tap water will work due to the additives and impurities, just not quite as well. I am currently using Borax as that was on the shelf and I had no other soda. It works just fine. And whatever you use it doesn't take much. I have about 2 cups to ~ 20 gallons water.

My advise FWIW is just stop worrying and give it a try. You will start to see results and get comfortable with adjusting mixture, current etc to suit your needs.

My setup is at my shop in a shared facility. It worried a few neighbors until they actually saw it in action and realized it was not "dangerous". Now they are bringing me work. II will get pictures of it when I can.

As an aside. I am thinking of putting an aquarium or pond filter in the setup to see if it keeps the liquid cleaner. Any thoughts?

 

[Fretters]

As an aside. I am thinking of putting an aquarium or pond filter in the setup to see if it keeps the liquid cleaner. Any thoughts?

It's definitely worth a shot. Let us know how you get on with it if you do try it. Would be nice if the solution could be kept quite clean throughout its life.

 

[n8n]

I bought an Astron 12V power supply (for CB/Ham hobbyist use) off craigslist and use a Home Despot "work tote" storage tote for my container. Old sprinkler pipe for electrode and I usually degrease with oven cleaner before "cooking" parts. Works great!

 

[Outlawmws]

SNIP
As an aside. I am thinking of putting an aquarium or pond filter in the setup to see if it keeps the liquid cleaner. Any thoughts?

I agree, worth a shot. I'm not sure if the scum will be removed, but the settling stuff should be. I seem to recall some trying an airstone agitate the water sightly. I've never tried that and am not sure what, if any effect the agitation has on the electrons traveling. If not extreme, I'd guess not a lot of effect.

 

[zkling]

It really doesn't matter what you use.

Yes it does. That is like saying why own a wrench set when there exist an adjustable wrench. Different chemicals may work, some are just better than others.

I am thinking of putting an aquarium or pond filter in the setup to see if it keeps the liquid cleaner. Any thoughts?

I've thought about it, but never got around to doing it. Ideally I think a surface feed overflow into a pump with mechanical filtration would would be good. Not sure about the sediment at the bottom though, if you could keep it suspended long enough to get it through water column and into the filter via the overflow. Basically run it like a sumped aquarium.

 

[paulsomlo]

I use a five gallon bucket, with an old circular saw blade for the sacrificial electrode. I noticed that the powder I use in my dishwasher contains sodium carbonate, aka "washing soda", so I throw a handful of that in. A small battery charger completes the mix.

 

[Craptain]

Yes it does. That is like saying why own a wrench set when there exist an adjustable wrench. Different chemicals may work, some are just better than others.

Granted. But I am just encouraging folks to give it a try and not get caught up with too many details and believing it is too complicated.

I've thought about it, but never got around to doing it. Ideally I think a surface feed overflow into a pump with mechanical filtration would would be good. Not sure about the sediment at the bottom though, if you could keep it suspended long enough to get it through water column and into the filter via the overflow. Basically run it like a sumped aquarium.

As it happens I picked up an aquarium filter last night. Strange circumstances - don't ask.
Any way it is actually designed to be a biological filter, but I am thinking I can put some other medium in the trays. Maybe just simple sand. At least I have the start of a filter system so maybe in a week or so I will post results ...or lack of.
I hope that if the pump return is directed to the bottom of the E-tank it will stir up the sediment in the same way it would in an aquarium.

 

[Fretters]

As it happens I picked up an aquarium filter last night. Strange circumstances - don't ask.

It appears you've retained your Yorkshireman streak.

Any way it is actually designed to be a biological filter, but I am thinking I can put some other medium in the trays. Maybe just simple sand. At least I have the start of a filter system so maybe in a week or so I will post results ...or lack of.
I hope that if the pump return is directed to the bottom of the E-tank it will stir up the sediment in the same way it would in an aquarium.

I'd be tempted to pop some of those green pan scourers in there. They're quite close to the type of thing they use as filter medium in some filters. Directing it to the bottom sounds a good method to try. Doesn't need much to stir it up, so I'm guessing that should work quite well.

 

[EOC_Jason]

Granted. But I am just encouraging folks to give it a try and not get caught up with too many details and believing it is too complicated.

I kind of have to agree with this. I was reading & reading & reading about them before giving it my first try... But then once I did I realized it's not really rocket science... Nothing has to be exact, as long as you get your positive & negative correct, and not have a direct short, then more than likely it *will* work...

 

[Fretters]

I kind of have to agree with this. I was reading & reading & reading about them before giving it my first try... But then once I did I realized it's not really rocket science... Nothing has to be exact, as long as you get your positive & negative correct, and not have a direct short, then more than likely it *will* work...

I'd pretty much totally agree with what Craptain said. There really is too much info, (most either concocted or mere hypothesis than real), on this subject. It is an absolute doddle of a setup to use, but its obfuscated intensely.

This thread has been quite handy. Even I'm clearer on the odd bits than I was before, and I've revised and tested this thing upto the hilt over the years.

 

[Craptain]

Some have asked about power supplies. If you only have a modern automatic battery charger you will need an alternative power supply. Here is the one I have been using. As you can see it came from an old Dell computer. I am using 2 of the outputs, the +12V and the +5V. In this case the 5V is on the red wires. There are lots of them and I cut most of them short. I ganged 3 of them together and attached it to a croc clip. The 12V comes out on Yellow wires. Again I ganged 3 together and attached a clip. The ground is Black. Same again. Some of the other wires are used. If you look at the picture you see I have joined the green to ground. This is the switch circuit. I don't need a switch so I just joined them to stay on. Actually just grounding the green once should turn it on but it depends on type of PS. I usually use the 5V for electrolysis, but depending on the project I may use the 12V with a bulb in series.

Here is are a couple of articles on how to do it. I didn't need terminals so I just used clips. But do what you want for your particular use.

http://www.mbeckler.org/powersupply/

http://www.wikihow.com/Convert-a-Computer-ATX-Power-Supply-to-a-Lab-Power-Supply

And a video if that works better for you.

 

[older=better]

This is great. I just built one the other day. It works great but I've found that running less voltage and lower amps for a longer time is the way to go. Using a 2 amp 6 volt charger will give you a green oxidation over your tool. Running on a 5 volt .5 amp dc power supply and about 24 hours didn't cause any of the green stuff and completely removed all the rust.

The larger the tool the more voltage drop you see something like a ratchet is about is okay on my little psu but for anything larger I have to use more voltage witch causes green stuff.

 

[drivesitfar]

Older: do you have any pictures you can post of your tank set up and maybe a couple of the "green" stuff you are talking about?

glad you are cooking some steel and it's working.


anybody else reading or posting on this thread please include pictures for us Newbies steel cookers to see if you are able. thanks in advance!! also pictures of the filters and them in action if you can post pictures or a video.

 

[Fretters]

If you're observing a green oxide, that suggests you have something copper based in the solution. Connecting wires for the anodes suspended in the solution perchance?

 

[older=better]

A lot of these are way over built. The the part that you pust the positive voltage on is being destroyed in the process. I think the easiest cheapest and most replaceable the better. I wouldn't buil something here or use something that is not dirt cheap because your converting it into hydrogen gass anyways.

Id Just use cheap precut bars or a metal bucket.

 

[older=better]

Could be actually but it seems to be related directly to voltage.

I can't think of anything copper in the solution. I'm running on arm and hammer laundry booster a plastic bucket and still gator clips.

Could it be in the actual bars from lows?

 

[older=better]

Only picture I have of my rust bucket. This was running on a very low powered psu.

 

[Outlawmws]

It looks like your copper connection wires are immersed.

Connect above the waterline on the anode/rebar, and use some iron rebar ty-wire to make the final connection to the part being de-rusted.

I usually use another rebar across the top of the bucket, and hang the parts from the rebar using the ty-wire. the black wire gets lipped to the rebar hanger bar.

 

[Craptain]

So today I started a new solution for the e-tank and thought it time to take pictures.
The tank itself is a 15 gallon tote. I have about 13 gallons in it. I am using 2 graphite electrodes at diagonal corners of tank and it is hooked up to the computer power supply. The meter is not normally in circuit but I put it there to show current for new people. The chemical of the day is Borax, just because I had some on hand.First pic is the tank with vise parts hanging from hooks made from a coat hanger, suspended from a stainless rod. Stainless just because I had it around, no other motive. The coat hangers were stripped of paint in the hook areas to ensure good current flow. 2nd pic shows the PS just hiding below a bench. 3rd is meter showing amps, and 4th just for fun.

The filter set up is going to take a bit longer as the one I just acquired needs a little work, but hopefully in a few days.

 

[Fretters]

With the mention of cast iron for anode material the other day, decided to get the large vat up and running again to see how that stuff lasts over time. Two pieces, one at either end, from an old garden table next door was about to dump.

The piece in there is the small leg from the Drummond 5". That piece is running at just a shade under 1A at 12V. The fine bubbling can just be made out. It's the bits which appear silvery on the leg/stand. It's a sodium bicarbonate solution.

Not bothered stripping the paint, as that particular paint tends to just peel off after a day or so in there. Only minor scraping is needing to get the stubborn stuff off.

 

[drivesitfar]

Fretters and Craptain: how about sharing pictures of the items after they come out of the tanks and any before pictures you might have taken?

Fretters: just curious if once you clean off those old cast iron chair legs are you going to use them as sacrificial anodes in your big tanks for future projects or find another use for them in your yard?

I think i have all the parts for my initial Electrolysis bath and just trying to finish moving stuff to make a permanent spot for the tank to sit for a while since i have more rust than most to remove this spring and summer.

cheers

 

[Craptain]

Fretters and Craptain: how about sharing pictures of the items after they come out of the tanks and any before pictures you might have taken?


cheers

I might be able to do that if I remember my camera tomorrow.

 

[Fretters]

I'll take a photo before I paint it.

The cast iron the neighbour was chucking is already being tried as the anodes. It's the lattice work grids you can see at either end. It was just the top of a table he was getting shut of, (no idea what he's done with the legs, now you mention it). I cracked it in half before using it. The leg that's being derusted in there at the moment is off the big lathe.

I'm just curious about cast iron for anodes after the cauldron was mentioned the other day, as to whether it might last a bit longer than steel.

 

[drivesitfar]

thanks guys that would be awesome.


Also anybody else adding posts with remarks to add to this thread pictures of your tanks would be awesome for the newbies that haven't tried this yet.

thanks in advance

 

[Craptain]

I think this thread is finally going where the OP hoped.

 

[Alchymist]

thanks guys that would be awesome.


Also anybody else adding posts with remarks to add to this thread pictures of your tanks would be awesome for the newbies that haven't tried this yet.

thanks in advance

Almost anything non-ferous that will hold the part will work.
#1- rusty sheet metal tool box,
#2 - bath,
#3 de-rusted, and
#4 - left side of pic, finished.

 

[texasfiremedic]

Lots of great information. The information that is being conveyed is perfect. The pics are needed and lets me and others know what to expect. I'm just waiting to get what I need to set mine up and start the bubble making process. I always enjoy see other peoples projects and seeing the before and after.

 

[Craptain]

Here are some pics of the vise part I pulled out today. It was pretty bad and is only a cheap vise anyway. 1st pic is as it came out of the tank. 2nd shows it part hand cleaned with a scotch brite and also a part of it that was wire wheeled. I did this to show that the result from the tank only needs a quick clean up but I like to wire wheel in any case, especially on the surfaces that will not get paint. The third pic just shows another surface. You can see that this surface was partly heavily pitted and that cannot easily be removed the rest of it was somewhat protected and came up pretty well for a quick clean.

 

[texasfiremedic]

That came out great for a "quick clean." I will just have to stay in the never ending hunt for the vise that has my name on it somewhere. It keeps calling my name but I can't place where it is coming from.

 

[Craptain]

That came out great for a "quick clean."

That is why we use this method. Of course it had been cooking in the tank for ~3 days.

 

[Fretters]

#4 - left side of pic, finished.

You really ought not have painted the spring. That'll look a bit of a dog as soon as it has any tension on it, due to the unpainted portions. Springs ought be left clean and just lubed. Personal preference, granted, but I think you might end up stripping that spring once you see it in use.

 

[Alchymist]

You really ought not have painted the spring. That'll look a bit of a dog as soon as it has any tension on it, due to the unpainted portions. Springs ought be left clean and just lubed. Personal preference, granted, but I think you might end up stripping that spring once you see it in use.

Sorry, but if you 'd sen it before ....... besides, spring was stretched & painted, so little of the unpainted part shows. Done primarily to primer coat all surfaces.

 

[Fretters]

Sorry, but if you 'd sen it before ....... besides, spring was stretched & painted, so little of the unpainted part shows. Done primarily to primer coat all surfaces.

I'll retract my previous statement then. It's good to know there's someone out there who can do it properly. I've just seen so many springs in the past where they've had paint lathered on them whilst relaxed that it's become an automatic assumption. My apologies.

 

[drivesitfar]

Fretters: just curious since you have your Electrolysis tank outside. do you leave it on 24/7 or pull it off and bring in the electrical portion at night? also are you done cooking that cast iron leg to your lathe and did the cast iron anode make it a bit less of a mess?

i dropped this Prentiss vise that might have been sitting outside for most of it's 80 years in 3 gallons of vinegar to see what would happen. after 4 weeks i pulled it out and it unscrewed so back in the vinegar for more rust removal until i get my "E" tank set up and running. i'm guessing the E bath will take maybe 3 days to get the same results, but this vise was pretty rusty.

 

[Fretters]

That's one rusty vice.

The leg is still in there. Sod's law that when I mentioned that paint usually comes off without hassle, it's now clinging like s**t to a blanket on the inner side of the leg at the moment. That cast iron seems to be holding up okay. It's deteriorating at a lesser rate than sheet steel, by the looks of it, and current draw is staying steady around 1A.

Wiring wise, it's on constantly when running. That vat is near the shed, so there's some conduit wire running to the vat, (it's in a length of rubber hose to protect it), from the PSU in the shed.

 

[Sheriff Roscoe]

Fretters: just curious since you have your Electrolysis tank outside. do you leave it on 24/7 or pull it off and bring in the electrical portion at night? also are you done cooking that cast iron leg to your lathe and did the cast iron anode make it a bit less of a mess?

i dropped this Prentiss vise that might have been sitting outside for most of it's 80 years in 3 gallons of vinegar to see what would happen. after 4 weeks i pulled it out and it unscrewed so back in the vinegar for more rust removal until i get my "E" tank set up and running. i'm guessing the E bath will take maybe 3 days to get the same results, but this vise was pretty rusty.

Holy molly DIF...that is some serious rust! Sounds like you're getting close to diving into the Ebath...the vise that is.

I just finished up with an Ebath this evening on my Craftsman 100 DP table and base. Here are before and after:

I used the standard setup; 6v-12v car charger and washing soda. Spent a total of 2 1/2 days bathing.

After 1 1/2 days, there was next to no bubbly action and the leads had very little spark left.

As such, I mixed a fresh batch of water/washing soda and also switched to anodes with more surface area (from 3/8" rods to 2" wide flat steel). Nice strong spark again. Some may frown on sparking near the Ebath but I was in a large basement area and I'm still here to type about it

I'm not sure if the amp needle on my car charger is accurate but it was showing 5-6 amps on the 6volt setting and 11 amps on the 12volt setting . I could almost make waves on the 12 volt setting...ok not really but there was considerable water motion. Most of the time was spent on the 6v setting.

Anyway, I suspect your vise will take every bit of 3 days and probably a water/soda refresh or two during the process.

This was my first experience with an Ebath so am by no means an expert but wanted to share what worked for me. Good luck

 

[drivesitfar]

Awesome sheriff and thanks for sharing your process. also now that you have your DP free of rust for the most part let us know what method you choose to keep it rust free if you are not going to paint it. i heard mineral oils and wax are great ways and you may have another method in mind.

once i get the hang of the E bath and i know i'm not going to destroy the piece i'm cleaning then i'm planning on dipping my "old" vise in there for a dip so i can clean it up and put it on my bench at home.