How do Vessel Screwdrivers compare to Snap-on ?
- Thread starter i4ni
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This write-up seems pretty accurate from what I can tell.
smallworkshop.co.uk
Long story short... use any screwdriver except your 50 year old Stanley.
JIS screwdrivers, screws and fasteners from Japan
If you've ever worked on a vintage Japanese motorcycle you've almost certainly struggled with countless buggered-up cross head screws. The usual recommendation to avoid further screw mangling is to put aside your old Phillips screwdrivers and get some "JIS" ones instead. There is a lot of...
smallworkshop.co.uk
Long story short... use any screwdriver except your 50 year old Stanley.
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four.cycle
Well-known member
^ Exactly.
One of my favorites is a 1960's era P2 "Challenger".
Since acquiring the Vessels I VERY seldom pull that old Challenger out - the Vessels are usually my "go to" for anything Phillips, unless it's in a hole and then I go for a long skinny Rosco. (IF the 200mm Vessel won't reach.)
I have no shortage of screwdrivers.
I have an over-abundance of screwdrivers I no longer use.
One of my favorites is a 1960's era P2 "Challenger".
Since acquiring the Vessels I VERY seldom pull that old Challenger out - the Vessels are usually my "go to" for anything Phillips, unless it's in a hole and then I go for a long skinny Rosco. (IF the 200mm Vessel won't reach.)
I have no shortage of screwdrivers.
I have an over-abundance of screwdrivers I no longer use.
Attachments
What I found interesting from his testing in particular was that the OLD JIS drivers seemed to **** on JIS screws.
People pretty much use Vessel & Hazet in Japan. I doubt millions of people are using the wrong screwdrivers for their fasteners
.four.cycle
Well-known member
^ Again, I've read through ALL of these threads in which "JIS" has been discussed, and I fail to see what the problem is. I don't work on Japanese cars or motorcycles - maybe I'm missing something.
Most of my old P1 and P2 phillips drivers have worn out to the point where they should probably just be tossed out - the photos should make that evident.
I bought my first Vessel on a recommendation from Nelson Bowers, and I am more than happy with all the Vessels I've purchased so far.
Somebody mentioned "electrical" - I've used that "Glow-in-the-dark" P2 Vessel on light fixtures over at the studio without any issues. (Overhead fixtures and I had to replace a couple standard wall switches.)
The ONLY issue I have is that "JAWSFIT" design which WILL eventually damage the fastener - that set I posted above was a Christmas gift for a buddy, and I did not know at the time the issue with that type of driver or I would have made a different choice - there's no way he's going to use those on the stuff he works on (mostly computers.)
Never heard back from @83VillageRepair on that set of "Ball Grip" ratcheting models I sent to him for "Secret Santa" - I've never opened MY set here so I can't comment on those.
Most of my old P1 and P2 phillips drivers have worn out to the point where they should probably just be tossed out - the photos should make that evident.
I bought my first Vessel on a recommendation from Nelson Bowers, and I am more than happy with all the Vessels I've purchased so far.
Somebody mentioned "electrical" - I've used that "Glow-in-the-dark" P2 Vessel on light fixtures over at the studio without any issues. (Overhead fixtures and I had to replace a couple standard wall switches.)
The ONLY issue I have is that "JAWSFIT" design which WILL eventually damage the fastener - that set I posted above was a Christmas gift for a buddy, and I did not know at the time the issue with that type of driver or I would have made a different choice - there's no way he's going to use those on the stuff he works on (mostly computers.)
Never heard back from @83VillageRepair on that set of "Ball Grip" ratcheting models I sent to him for "Secret Santa" - I've never opened MY set here so I can't comment on those.
If you aren't working on anything Japanese, the JIS drivers are less important. I've found that some older Japanese HiFi equipment and camera equipment use JIS.
Some people claim the Vessels fit Philips/JIS better than anything, but I don't see any major advances over a good quality Snap-on or Wera/Wiha driver.
The only time I really felt like I needed a JIS driver was on those assembly screws on Honda rotors. A old Klein with a good tip just cammed out instantly. JIS driver took it out without any effort.
four.cycle
Well-known member
^ That I do not work on Japanese cars or motorcycle (or stereo equipment, OR lawnmowers) may well be a factor in what I am experiencing here at my end.
I do have a Husqvarna mower in back with a Honda engine, but I have no idea if it even has any Phillips fasteners on it - I guess I'll find out when I tear into it.
I don't own any Snap-on screwdrivers, so I can't speak to that. The only "Wiha" I own is a tiny little #00 Phillips.
To be candid, it was more the "ball grip" handle that sold me than it was the tip of the driver itself, although that part has definitely been a bonus - they don't "cam out" on me, and I find the "ball grip" thing easier to use - more user-friendly. Some guys hate soft rubber handles, but I've managed thus far to keep them out of the grease.
I'm curious now as to whether I'll run into any phillips screws on that mower.
And Honda rotors and calipers: you gotta talk to @Chrome Vanadium Cody on that one - I think he figured it out.
I do have a Husqvarna mower in back with a Honda engine, but I have no idea if it even has any Phillips fasteners on it - I guess I'll find out when I tear into it.
I don't own any Snap-on screwdrivers, so I can't speak to that. The only "Wiha" I own is a tiny little #00 Phillips.
To be candid, it was more the "ball grip" handle that sold me than it was the tip of the driver itself, although that part has definitely been a bonus - they don't "cam out" on me, and I find the "ball grip" thing easier to use - more user-friendly. Some guys hate soft rubber handles, but I've managed thus far to keep them out of the grease.
I'm curious now as to whether I'll run into any phillips screws on that mower.
And Honda rotors and calipers: you gotta talk to @Chrome Vanadium Cody on that one - I think he figured it out.
Jack Ryan
Well-known member
Yes, and "lot" is an understatement.
That was not Vessel, it was the US importers.
The standard is still valid and in use.
Jack
Yup. From what it seems the link above I posted it sounds like the JIS mark was more equivalent to an ISO 9000 certification versus the design of the tip.
Jack Ryan
Well-known member
Unless someone wants to call the JIS and tell them they don't exist I think there is very little information there.
Jack
Jack Ryan
Well-known member
Sorry, I'm not sure which link you are referring to. JIS standards cover the tip design and the fastener dimensions - just as ISO standards do.
Most countries have their own standards organisation and often, a local standard is identical, or very close to, an ISO standard. That applies to the UK and Australia as well as Japan.
In the case of "JIS" screws and drivers, I think the ISO adopted the good parts of the JIS standard to create a driver that worked.
Jack
JIS screwdrivers, screws and fasteners from Japan
If you've ever worked on a vintage Japanese motorcycle you've almost certainly struggled with countless buggered-up cross head screws. The usual recommendation to avoid further screw mangling is to put aside your old Phillips screwdrivers and get some "JIS" ones instead. There is a lot of...
smallworkshop.co.uk
The author seems to have a good understanding of the FUD around JIS. To him the translation from Vessel was somewhat unclear when it indicated they were no longer JIS compliant. It appears that Vessel no longer meets the manufacturing standards required to mark a product with the JIS logo, which is unrelated to manufacturing drivers to the JIS standard for the tips.
Which vessel are you comparing them to?
lotus_esprit
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I worked exclusively on Yamaha outboard motors for 17 years from late 90s, when the Vessel Megadora JIS 2/3 drivers became available in the UK in the early 2000’s they revolutionised removing the rotors on these engines, they were far better than any other driver on the market for shifting semi seized JIS screws from alloy blocks
Jack Ryan
Well-known member
JIS screwdrivers, screws and fasteners from Japan
If you've ever worked on a vintage Japanese motorcycle you've almost certainly struggled with countless buggered-up cross head screws. The usual recommendation to avoid further screw mangling is to put aside your old Phillips screwdrivers and get some "JIS" ones instead. There is a lot of...
The author seems to have a good understanding of the FUD around JIS. To him the translation from Vessel was somewhat unclear when it indicated they were no longer JIS compliant. It appears that Vessel no longer meets the manufacturing standards required to mark a product with the JIS logo, which is unrelated to manufacturing drivers to the JIS standard for the tips.
He refers to the dodgy statements made by the US importer/agent for Vessel.
Allowing for the dodgy translation, it seems that what is being explained here is that while Vessel continues to follow the JIS standards for crosspoint screwdrivers, they are no longer accredited to JIS manufacturing standards (they now comply with the globally recognised ISO 9001 standards), and this is why they no longer include JIS product certification mark on their products.
When did they ever use the JIS product certification mark?
The JIS standard for cross point screw drivers has changed, but not significantly, and not so that they are no longer compatible with fasteners made to the old standard. I think some are trying to say that new drivers are not the same as the old ones and no longer work with vintage equipment. I think that is rubbish.
Vessel may work to the JIS equivalent of ISO 9001 but that is a quality assurance standard - it has zero to do with driver specifications.
(Sorry, this post got stuck somewhere)
Jack
pizza
Well-known member
i have seen reference to types H, S, and Z crosspoints. anyone know what that's about?
i assume Z is pozidriv... but maybe it's not.
i assume Z is pozidriv... but maybe it's not.
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Jack Ryan
Well-known member
pizza
Well-known member
S
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Jack Ryan
Well-known member
Z would be Pozidriv. I don't know what that S means but I would guess "spinner"S
H, Z
Jack
You could be right about the limited depth of the recess but I think the increased engagement of the Torx bit makes up for it. In any case, all sorts of structural countersunk screws in the US are torx head, with no apparent issues.
Just one example of thousands:
KnurledNut
Well-known member
Your vague reply is much less helpful.
Jack Ryan
Well-known member
I'm sorry but I have responded many times on this and other similar threads but the same old stuff keeps coming back.
Bubba Fett
Well-known member
I saw we take off, and get a screwdriver (or a set) from every country.
It's the only way to be sure.
It's the only way to be sure.
I'm sure ProjectFarm has some screwdriver videos, at least one...
You can find some other videos from this guy; he seems to have too much disposable income and hoards enough tools to make even some of GJ jealous... But one thing I do like is he will buy several of a particular product category from different brands/COO's, etc. and will compare them.
Hohn
Well-known member
This was an epiphany for me that had me blowing up the text inbox of many friends.
I love the handles, too.
I got the megadora impacta in JIS #2 and #3 along with their pick set that includes the "chisel style screwdriver" and I love these tools. I regret only that I went so many years without them. The first time you use an Impacta on a japanese brake rotor you might literally laugh out loud as I did. It feels like cheating!
I haven't used any Snap Ons since the old black handled ones, and I'm comfortable putting the Vessels well ahead of them.
Some of the old screwdrivers I had from 20 years ago had it on the packaging.
100%.
I pulled up the latest copy of the JIS screwdriver specification this morning, along with a copy from 1987 and the dimensions for the drivers are identical. I'm trying to locate copies of the standards from the 60s and 70s.
I love them to, I to wish I had known sooner considering I have thirteen Honda's
HomeTheaterMan
Well-known member
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I looked at my order history and it looks like the Vessel Megadora is the model.
Made a few calls to Japan and I've located old copies of the JIS standards which are nowhere to be found on the Internet (all the standards on the Internet are when they aligned closer with DIN/ISO in the late 80s onwards).
For those interested in the tips of modern JIS and older JIS screwdrivers updates will be coming shortly.
For those interested in the tips of modern JIS and older JIS screwdrivers updates will be coming shortly.
four.cycle
Well-known member
Just a note:
When my buddy was over here working on the Ranger the other day, I asked him about that "Megadora" set that I had given him at Christmas - the one that included the "JAWSFIT" Phillips drivers. (photo HERE - first image)
I was really kind of apprehensive about giving him THAT set, because he's used hard-handles his entire life and I didn't know if he would care for those softer handles, and I had some reservations about the "JAWSFIT" causing issues for him.
He raved about them, which actually surprised me. Said he loved the "JAWSFIT" stuff.
When my buddy was over here working on the Ranger the other day, I asked him about that "Megadora" set that I had given him at Christmas - the one that included the "JAWSFIT" Phillips drivers. (photo HERE - first image)
I was really kind of apprehensive about giving him THAT set, because he's used hard-handles his entire life and I didn't know if he would care for those softer handles, and I had some reservations about the "JAWSFIT" causing issues for him.
He raved about them, which actually surprised me. Said he loved the "JAWSFIT" stuff.
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My package finally arrived from Tokyo. Here is the original JIS specifications from the 1950s.
Think this sums up the fact that nothing has changed over the years with the dimensions.
Any quality JIS or ISO screwdriver should fit anything with a JIS crosshead from any era.
Think this sums up the fact that nothing has changed over the years with the dimensions.
Any quality JIS or ISO screwdriver should fit anything with a JIS crosshead from any era.
Jack Ryan
Well-known member
Thanks for that.
How did you manage to get an old standard? Do you know the Emperor?
Jack
Apparently once you find out how to do a wire transfer to Japan in Yen they'll send you a cool paper copy (no PDF available?!?) via UPS.
Very nice people and surprisingly the cost wasn't too bad compared to standards you'd find from ANSI & ISO. Well packaged too.
Jack Ryan
Well-known member
Good to know.
The cost of ANSI and ISO (and other) standards is probably a cause of non-compliance. And the copy protection of the PDFs tends to get lost with changes of PC so I often get paper copies anyway.
Jack
Hello Brandon,My package finally arrived from Tokyo. Here is the original JIS specifications from the 1950s.
Think this sums up the fact that nothing has changed over the years with the dimensions.
Any quality JIS or ISO screwdriver should fit anything with a JIS crosshead from any era.
I'm the author of the article on smallworkshop.co.uk you linked above.
I had come across the theory that the current JIS crosshead specification was some kind of compromise solution, replacing an older version of the spec - hence much speculation on the existence of "true" JIS drivers that match the old spec - but I could not find any evidence to substantiate this.
... so it's great that you have managed to track down proof that the JIS spec has in fact not changed since the 50s (bar a minor tightening on a couple of tolerances) and that the existence of screwdrivers conforming to a special version of the spec is not correct. Would you mind if I included the image above in my article?
PS does anyone have copies of the US (ASME?) crosshead screwdriver specs? I assume this spec has also now been harmonised with the JIS/ISO standard but have not been able to find any proof.
Feel free to use it. I have one other copies I acquired (one from the 70s) I will PM much better scans to you today!
I will research the US specifications. I believe I have a copy at my other job.
four.cycle
Well-known member
^ Thank you gentlemen for getting to the bottom of this. Hopefully this will address all the speculation and conjecture that's seen in so many "screwdriver" threads here. 
Tynee
Well-known member
I came for the "Snap-On vs Vessel" and stuck around to finally learn what all the fuss is about with JIS screws (What's the difference, anyway?).
So, to summarize:
Did I get this right? What am I missing here?
I think the way I'll put this in practice is stick with my roughly 20-year-old S-O's for working on my 60's-90's Chevy's, my 15-year-old Klein's for plumbing/carpentry/electrical/mechanical work, and pick up some Vessel or PB Swiss Phillips to work on my Echo (Shindaiwa) and Honda small engines as well as my son's '95 Toyota. Seem reasonable?
So, to summarize:
- There is no difference in dimensions between JIS standard fasteners or screwdrivers from any era
- The best BRAND of screwdrivers is still very subjective and depends a lot on what you are working on and your preference for the handles.
- SAE vs Metric fasteners and screwdrivers definitely makes a difference:
- If you work on US (and/or euro?) industrial fasteners or primarily older US autos, you'll likely have better luck with SAE screwdrivers. Find a US-based brand like Snap-on, Klein, or Proto (I'm sure there are others I'm not thinking of)
- If you work on primarily Japanese industrial fasteners or euro/Japanese autos, metric screwdrivers make more sense. Look into Vessel, Wera, Wiha(?), or PB Swiss among others.
- Newer US autos (Y2K+?) probably are moving closer to JIS as well, if you can still find a Phillips or Flat screw anywhere on them...
- Don't try using your old favorite US-made screwdriver on Japanese or Euro fasteners, you're asking for a hard time
- Japanese/Euro screwdrivers are a little more forgiving on US fasteners that the other way around, or sometimes actually better.
- As ISO/DIN, ASME, and JIS standards become closer and closer to each other, AND manufacturers update to the newest standards in production, we should see this question go away.
Did I get this right? What am I missing here?
I think the way I'll put this in practice is stick with my roughly 20-year-old S-O's for working on my 60's-90's Chevy's, my 15-year-old Klein's for plumbing/carpentry/electrical/mechanical work, and pick up some Vessel or PB Swiss Phillips to work on my Echo (Shindaiwa) and Honda small engines as well as my son's '95 Toyota. Seem reasonable?