86turbodsl
Well-known member
Really cool build. I'm assuming you're already on the mc-chassis email group? I have wanted to do this for a long long time, either build a frame around a Vmax or a Water Buffalo engine with a FFE.
Motorcycle Build
- Thread starter indisguise
- Start date
OP
indisguise
Well-known member
@86turbodsl and @geoffjm I do have Tony's wonderful book along with several others on motorcycle dynamics. I don't currently belong to the mailing list since this build is not about performance. I'm just a guy in a garage learning as he goes....
Little update. I somehow wandered into a bunch of poison Ivy here in the midwest. Absolutely horrible stuff!. Anyway to keep me entertained "inside" I played with something new.
Problem: My lathe tooling is scattered all over the garage. This inevitably leads to me fumbling around trying to find the tool I need. Many folks here build really nice wooden holders for their AXA/BXA tooling. Sadly my wood working skills are non existent and to be honest, I lack the interest in wood working.....Therefore let's try something new....
First I unearthed the kids old cheap 3D printer. This is a $200 special from many many years ago. I updated the firmware, cleaned a few things and ran new PLA. Then over to "thingiverse" to download some models.
*side note...who in their right mind dangles a power supply from the wall.....
This little printer is extremely basic but functions well for this extremely simple task!..
20 hours later resulted in a pile of these...
The print quality is meh..but perfectly serviceable for what I need...
Next a super simple rack was fabricated to hold theses little gems...
This should allow me to find my tooling quickly.... NOTE TO SELF I really should build a splash guard for the lathe....spot the wall splatter LOL...
Here's the final setup. It took very little effort and seems to work well. Total cost was $0.
The next post should be frame related... Since the Poison Ivy is now under control...
Little update. I somehow wandered into a bunch of poison Ivy here in the midwest. Absolutely horrible stuff!. Anyway to keep me entertained "inside" I played with something new.
Problem: My lathe tooling is scattered all over the garage. This inevitably leads to me fumbling around trying to find the tool I need. Many folks here build really nice wooden holders for their AXA/BXA tooling. Sadly my wood working skills are non existent and to be honest, I lack the interest in wood working.....Therefore let's try something new....
First I unearthed the kids old cheap 3D printer. This is a $200 special from many many years ago. I updated the firmware, cleaned a few things and ran new PLA. Then over to "thingiverse" to download some models.
*side note...who in their right mind dangles a power supply from the wall.....
This little printer is extremely basic but functions well for this extremely simple task!..
20 hours later resulted in a pile of these...
The print quality is meh..but perfectly serviceable for what I need...
Next a super simple rack was fabricated to hold theses little gems...
This should allow me to find my tooling quickly.... NOTE TO SELF I really should build a splash guard for the lathe....spot the wall splatter LOL...
Here's the final setup. It took very little effort and seems to work well. Total cost was $0.
The next post should be frame related... Since the Poison Ivy is now under control...
Last edited:
Kpaige
Well-known member
I got into a bunch of poison sumac this year after the floods receded and cleaning up brush. Got it all over my face and lips. All my years playing in the woods never had anything it was not fun….
OP
indisguise
Well-known member
OK...Its been a while......
I spent the last few months trying to concentrate on the rear suspension. This task proved incredibly difficult, however I think I'm there...
First I had to calculate the geometry and ensure things were level. This included securing the mounts while I worked on the connecting tubes. The securing method was somewhat dubious to say the least!
The small connecting tubes were incredibly difficult to make. The smaller tubes are almost impossible to clamp when you have bends in two or more planes.
I wanted the rear mount to curve with the frame. Most builders avoid using bends in small tubing for a variety of reasons...However I feel the above is aesthetically pleasing to look at. It will remove some strength, however these tubes are extremely large and tightly triangulated.
Most of the "coped" tubes maintained an excellent fit. However there were many sacrifices along the way..........
The other side is not quite as pleasing to the eye due to the offset nature of the single sided swing arm. But it still works...
After completing this there is one "area of shame" that needs addressing. Removing this gap was really hard due to steep angle of the tube. I may still redo this one...however I may weld in a small gusset here.
Anyway here's the rear suspension done.
Time to move onto the cross bracing before building a welding jig for the frame....
I spent the last few months trying to concentrate on the rear suspension. This task proved incredibly difficult, however I think I'm there...
First I had to calculate the geometry and ensure things were level. This included securing the mounts while I worked on the connecting tubes. The securing method was somewhat dubious to say the least!
The small connecting tubes were incredibly difficult to make. The smaller tubes are almost impossible to clamp when you have bends in two or more planes.
I wanted the rear mount to curve with the frame. Most builders avoid using bends in small tubing for a variety of reasons...However I feel the above is aesthetically pleasing to look at. It will remove some strength, however these tubes are extremely large and tightly triangulated.
Most of the "coped" tubes maintained an excellent fit. However there were many sacrifices along the way..........
The other side is not quite as pleasing to the eye due to the offset nature of the single sided swing arm. But it still works...
After completing this there is one "area of shame" that needs addressing. Removing this gap was really hard due to steep angle of the tube. I may still redo this one...however I may weld in a small gusset here.
Anyway here's the rear suspension done.
Time to move onto the cross bracing before building a welding jig for the frame....
larry4406
Well-known member
Many will see, few will notice.
driftpin
Well-known member
I recall reading about a W. German car marque, probably unfamiliar to many in the USA. Veritas. They built their cars with strength and details which would never be seen once the car left the factory.
Another company like that was Lancia. Ferrari used many parts which were the same as Lancia's. Except for the pricetag, of course.
Keep doing uncompromising work. A gusset added is merely a stronger way to proceed.
Another company like that was Lancia. Ferrari used many parts which were the same as Lancia's. Except for the pricetag, of course.
Keep doing uncompromising work. A gusset added is merely a stronger way to proceed.
OP
indisguise
Well-known member
@jake28 I fear you know me all too well.. The chance of that tube being on the final bike gets slimmer by the second.....And yes.....I will see it even when not looking at the bike....It will haunt my dreams
Kpaige
Well-known member
Ducati single sided swingarm?
I wanted to use one on my build but went for the Buell xb swingarm with the oil tank in it.
I wanted to use one on my build but went for the Buell xb swingarm with the oil tank in it.
OP
indisguise
Well-known member
It is. I have two Ducati 848 EVO single sided swing-arms. I just love how over built these things are. The 916 example looks tiny in comparison.
Kpaige
Well-known member
Yes they are beefy looking but are also not as heavy as they appear. If I could have figured out how to make one an oil tank I would have used one.
Kpaige
Well-known member
Are you keeping an eye on length axle to axle? Is it going to be longer than “stock” just curious as mine was longer handled diffrent but better. I remember building mine and it was longer and since I was running a belt that created some challenges but I learned that the belts used on bikes are not much different from a lot of industrial belts and developed my own tensioner system to work with the pivot of the swingarm to keep consistent tension on the belt.
Also went through about 6 different shocks trying to get it as minimalistic as possible. Eventually went with a custom tuned shock from hyperpro. That with a micro sized lithium was great for creating room.
I also went with all motogadget electronics, which I highly suggest. If you have not looked at them yet Revival cycles is excellent they sat on many FaceTimes with me wiring the bike.
Also went through about 6 different shocks trying to get it as minimalistic as possible. Eventually went with a custom tuned shock from hyperpro. That with a micro sized lithium was great for creating room.
I also went with all motogadget electronics, which I highly suggest. If you have not looked at them yet Revival cycles is excellent they sat on many FaceTimes with me wiring the bike.
OP
indisguise
Well-known member
Just a quick update on the frame. The theme of this post is triangulation.... 
It's slowly looking more like a frame. I still need to tackle the other side and that's usually tricky as it needs to match. Then there are gussets and supports to add....
I'm not sure how much this thing will weigh, however I might rename it to "Project Boat Anchor"....
Thats all folks...
It's slowly looking more like a frame. I still need to tackle the other side and that's usually tricky as it needs to match. Then there are gussets and supports to add....
I'm not sure how much this thing will weigh, however I might rename it to "Project Boat Anchor"....
Thats all folks...
86turbodsl
Well-known member
the Mc-chassis mailing list is literally a mailing list about building motorcycle chassis. Nothing about performance. You might check it out. there are several famous people subbed, including Tony Foale.
OP
indisguise
Well-known member
Thanks @86turbodsl I might give that a shot. However, to be honest, mailman threads are not something I'm particularly fond of. Email reminds me of work
So here is something off topic. I was reading one of the many automotive sites I frequent, and I came across this...
For reference (http://www.speedhunters.com/2023/09/its-not-always-easy-the-590hp-k24-s15/)
This, for many reasons really hit home. I appreciate the plethora of wonderful builds hosted on different Internet platforms. However these rarely capture what is truly involved in the process of creation. This is one area where "old school" blogs have remained relevant. They supply a medium for those who care for what's under that "veneer" of modern society. If you can't tell, I'm fully invested in Malcolm Gladwell's 10,000 hour philosophy.
OK....I'm sounding like an "old fart"...time to move on......
So here is something off topic. I was reading one of the many automotive sites I frequent, and I came across this...
For reference (http://www.speedhunters.com/2023/09/its-not-always-easy-the-590hp-k24-s15/)
This, for many reasons really hit home. I appreciate the plethora of wonderful builds hosted on different Internet platforms. However these rarely capture what is truly involved in the process of creation. This is one area where "old school" blogs have remained relevant. They supply a medium for those who care for what's under that "veneer" of modern society. If you can't tell, I'm fully invested in Malcolm Gladwell's 10,000 hour philosophy.
OK....I'm sounding like an "old fart"...time to move on......
OP
indisguise
Well-known member
Speaking of 10000 hours.....I still have a long way to go.
Today I worked on the other side...
It seems to mirror the other side rather well and I'm happy with the tube diameter choice.
As always....there is an issue with the last upright....the gaps are just not good enough.. This one will get reworked soon...
You will notice that I switched over to foil tape as I progressed. Its far stronger when mocking the tubes...The blue tape failed very very quickly.
Overall I'm pretty happy with the progress, however there are two issues:
Thats all folks.....
Today I worked on the other side...
It seems to mirror the other side rather well and I'm happy with the tube diameter choice.
As always....there is an issue with the last upright....the gaps are just not good enough.. This one will get reworked soon...
You will notice that I switched over to foil tape as I progressed. Its far stronger when mocking the tubes...The blue tape failed very very quickly.
Overall I'm pretty happy with the progress, however there are two issues:
- The rear suspension requires some strengthening...that will come soon. However I'm somewhat concerned about destroying the aesthetics..
- The swing arm mount needs "tie-ing" into the engine mount above.
Thats all folks.....
OP
indisguise
Well-known member
Wow its been a while... Things here have been slow...not really any huge updates...but progress none the less.
Cross bracing made to triangulate the frame towards the head stock.. See the top and bottom horizontal braces...
The frame is getting closer....
I redid the rear left side which i was not happy with....looks a little better and the gaps are gone.
Then I need to cross brace the rear suspension. This stops it "opening up".
First I machined some "bat symbols".....
On the bike it looks like this. Possibly a little "chunky" IMHO....
Anyway....one last set of braces and then on to building the Jig....
Cross bracing made to triangulate the frame towards the head stock.. See the top and bottom horizontal braces...
The frame is getting closer....
I redid the rear left side which i was not happy with....looks a little better and the gaps are gone.
Then I need to cross brace the rear suspension. This stops it "opening up".
First I machined some "bat symbols".....
On the bike it looks like this. Possibly a little "chunky" IMHO....
Anyway....one last set of braces and then on to building the Jig....
Ohmthis
Well-known member
Indisguise, cool project! Will this be a naked bike or are fairings planned? It’s be a shame to cover up the artwork of a frame.
OP
indisguise
Well-known member
This is a really good question and one I don't have an answer for. I'm a huge fan of naked bikes, I previously owned an early Ducati Monster which I loved. However there is something aesthetically pleasing about the vintage racer look on a more modern bike. I will probably continue building and just follow my gut. This has been my current mode of operation and the organic approach seems to produce something I could never of imagined prior. No doubt it will cause 5X the work and tons of rework...but that's part of the adventure.
OP
indisguise
Well-known member
So onto the last few frame sections as mentioned before..
The cross support at the front was held in place...
Now the the last remaining rear mounts needed fabricating. For this I resorted to using CAD. I know... I said I was avoiding this, however occasionally I break my own rules...
The first task was to fire up the laptop. Then I had to choose the correct application, to support this CAD work. This inevitably was Apple Music with some kicking beats.....
Then after about 10 minutes this was the result...
Cardboard Aided Design has its place and I'm glad I leveraged this advance technology. This was quickly turned into steel with the help of literally every machine I had....
The other side required some clearance's but still turned out good.
Close up...
After that exhausting CAD work I got some time to stick some tubes together....9998 hours of practice to go....
Now I get to move onto the welding JIG. This should move a little quicker....
Thats all folks..
The cross support at the front was held in place...
Now the the last remaining rear mounts needed fabricating. For this I resorted to using CAD. I know... I said I was avoiding this, however occasionally I break my own rules...
The first task was to fire up the laptop. Then I had to choose the correct application, to support this CAD work. This inevitably was Apple Music with some kicking beats.....
Then after about 10 minutes this was the result...
Cardboard Aided Design has its place and I'm glad I leveraged this advance technology. This was quickly turned into steel with the help of literally every machine I had....
The other side required some clearance's but still turned out good.
Close up...
After that exhausting CAD work I got some time to stick some tubes together....9998 hours of practice to go....
Now I get to move onto the welding JIG. This should move a little quicker....
Thats all folks..
OP
indisguise
Well-known member
Wow its been forever and a day......
The bike project was put on hold due to another mechanical money pit.......
I previously lived in Northern California (wonderful place) and enjoyed driving the area in this fantastic beast!
These old cars (1973 Mercedes Benz 280 SEL) have the ability to "waft" you along with an "air of calmness" which is just magical. Of course this "wafting" requires a side deal with OPEC, however let's ignore that minor inconvenience!
Relocating resulted in selling the car, and since then my wife and I have missed the car. Therefore 10 years later we tried to find another.
Welcome Mercedes number 2!
This one is a 1972 Mercedes 280SE from the west coast. Its had one owner for most of its life and would really be classed as a survivor car.
The car's exterior was fantastic! All original with a few signs of wear but overall great. The car drove well and we used it fleetingly for the next 24 months. During this time, it was becoming evident that the engine was well warn, due to signs of oil burning on acceleration. However we just decided to enjoy it "as is" for a while.......
However that awful "Brain maggot" which seems to be present in a subset of the society started to slowly work its magic! And this past winter I decided to attempt to change the Valve stem Oil seals.
Now most of you should already be laughing....if not... You should be!!!!!... These M117 engines are tough....but the weak point is the valve stems...not just the seals.... However occasionally the aforementioned "Maggot" will fool you into thinking that you can fix the issue with just 25% of the work. I like to call this "The ego speaking".....
Therefore with blissful ignorance I started the project of replacing the valve stem oil seals. For this I was going to leverage the "rope method"..... Since it negated removing the heads and thus saving more time! At this point the ego was sky high.....
First I started with compression test...
So I started dismantling the V8 "donkey"... this engine is a maze of hoses and wires...
On first inspection the issues multiplied....
First the injectors were all broken and were clearly hanging on for life!!
It's hard to tell, but the plastic body....where the connector fits...is just gone!!!
And to compound this, all the connectors were barely hanging on!
Secondly several pipes were coated in what seems like JB weld...
Then I noticed all the water pump and all the associated connections were leaking!
So this quickly escalated from a valve stem oil seal replacement to:
First job was to tackle the valve stem seals.
The rope method was difficult on the first two valves...so much so that I tried the compressed air technique. This failed quickly and almost resulted in a dropped valve!
Now lets pause for a second and those who were initially laughing will enjoy this. Why did the compressed air technique fail? Well clearly air was escaping faster than expected due to sealing issues... This was a clue which never registered....
Anyway back to the rope technique...and I blasted through 6 valves in short order...
And then............ the rope got stuck in the cylinder.....oh ****....
At this moment the Ego took a hit...my mind raced with visions of needing to remove the heads to remove the rope! However first I needed to see what happened...
Out with the $25 endoscope camera....amazing tool! eveyone should have one! The result was the rope decided to knot in the cylinder when I tried to pull it out, and hence could no longer fit through the spark plug hole......
After some head scratching...this took days FYI, I came up with this. An Exacto blade welded to a long screw driver. This would allow me to place it and the camera into the bore. Hopefully then I could cut the rope! welcome to engine key hole surgery!!!
By some sheer miracle this actually worked and the rope was free.... with the help of a hook... to remove the remaining rope.
By this point I was 8 weeks into a 2 weekend project!!!
Next I tackled the injectors....Out with the old. Most were completely broken....
And in with the new...
Then it was onto completely redoing the injector wiring harness... This took time....
FYI these cheep little tools were a life saver. Sadly all the connectors were useless and new ones were required.....
However after a few more months... of waiting for parts.. the harness was rebuilt!.
Next on the list was removing the water pump.....Which in theory is quite simple.
Until.....
Yep you guessed it the bolt had rusted solid and snapped. At this point the "Ego" was well and truly checked....it was actually non existent..... I thought about torching the entire car....the project was now 5 months in and it was consuming all my time.... How could this be....
I thought about removing the entire engine....but honestly this was just more than I wanted to tackle. Therefore I slowly drilled out the bolt and retapped the hole...
Luckily this was the final hurdle and after fixing all these issues I can happily report that the car STILL burns oil, less for sure...but its clearly a valve stem issue.....with valve seating issue with possible ring issue. READ OLD engine with north of 200k miles...
So there we have it. How to spend 5 months and $1000 getting to exactly the same place..... My Ego is well and truly checked!
So this is why the bike project was on hold.....
The bike project was put on hold due to another mechanical money pit.......
I previously lived in Northern California (wonderful place) and enjoyed driving the area in this fantastic beast!
These old cars (1973 Mercedes Benz 280 SEL) have the ability to "waft" you along with an "air of calmness" which is just magical. Of course this "wafting" requires a side deal with OPEC, however let's ignore that minor inconvenience!
Relocating resulted in selling the car, and since then my wife and I have missed the car. Therefore 10 years later we tried to find another.
Welcome Mercedes number 2!
This one is a 1972 Mercedes 280SE from the west coast. Its had one owner for most of its life and would really be classed as a survivor car.
The car's exterior was fantastic! All original with a few signs of wear but overall great. The car drove well and we used it fleetingly for the next 24 months. During this time, it was becoming evident that the engine was well warn, due to signs of oil burning on acceleration. However we just decided to enjoy it "as is" for a while.......
However that awful "Brain maggot" which seems to be present in a subset of the society started to slowly work its magic! And this past winter I decided to attempt to change the Valve stem Oil seals.
Now most of you should already be laughing....if not... You should be!!!!!... These M117 engines are tough....but the weak point is the valve stems...not just the seals.... However occasionally the aforementioned "Maggot" will fool you into thinking that you can fix the issue with just 25% of the work. I like to call this "The ego speaking".....
Therefore with blissful ignorance I started the project of replacing the valve stem oil seals. For this I was going to leverage the "rope method"..... Since it negated removing the heads and thus saving more time! At this point the ego was sky high.....
First I started with compression test...
- 130 PSI
- 149
- 143
- 153
- 150
- 147
- 145
- 140
So I started dismantling the V8 "donkey"... this engine is a maze of hoses and wires...
On first inspection the issues multiplied....
First the injectors were all broken and were clearly hanging on for life!!
It's hard to tell, but the plastic body....where the connector fits...is just gone!!!
And to compound this, all the connectors were barely hanging on!
Secondly several pipes were coated in what seems like JB weld...
Then I noticed all the water pump and all the associated connections were leaking!
So this quickly escalated from a valve stem oil seal replacement to:
- New injectors
- New Injector wiring
- New water pump
- New belts
- All new hoses.
First job was to tackle the valve stem seals.
The rope method was difficult on the first two valves...so much so that I tried the compressed air technique. This failed quickly and almost resulted in a dropped valve!
Now lets pause for a second and those who were initially laughing will enjoy this. Why did the compressed air technique fail? Well clearly air was escaping faster than expected due to sealing issues... This was a clue which never registered....
Anyway back to the rope technique...and I blasted through 6 valves in short order...
And then............ the rope got stuck in the cylinder.....oh ****....
At this moment the Ego took a hit...my mind raced with visions of needing to remove the heads to remove the rope! However first I needed to see what happened...
Out with the $25 endoscope camera....amazing tool! eveyone should have one! The result was the rope decided to knot in the cylinder when I tried to pull it out, and hence could no longer fit through the spark plug hole......
After some head scratching...this took days FYI, I came up with this. An Exacto blade welded to a long screw driver. This would allow me to place it and the camera into the bore. Hopefully then I could cut the rope! welcome to engine key hole surgery!!!
By some sheer miracle this actually worked and the rope was free.... with the help of a hook... to remove the remaining rope.
By this point I was 8 weeks into a 2 weekend project!!!
Next I tackled the injectors....Out with the old. Most were completely broken....
And in with the new...
Then it was onto completely redoing the injector wiring harness... This took time....
FYI these cheep little tools were a life saver. Sadly all the connectors were useless and new ones were required.....
However after a few more months... of waiting for parts.. the harness was rebuilt!.
Next on the list was removing the water pump.....Which in theory is quite simple.
Until.....
Yep you guessed it the bolt had rusted solid and snapped. At this point the "Ego" was well and truly checked....it was actually non existent..... I thought about torching the entire car....the project was now 5 months in and it was consuming all my time.... How could this be....
I thought about removing the entire engine....but honestly this was just more than I wanted to tackle. Therefore I slowly drilled out the bolt and retapped the hole...
Luckily this was the final hurdle and after fixing all these issues I can happily report that the car STILL burns oil, less for sure...but its clearly a valve stem issue.....with valve seating issue with possible ring issue. READ OLD engine with north of 200k miles...
So there we have it. How to spend 5 months and $1000 getting to exactly the same place..... My Ego is well and truly checked!
So this is why the bike project was on hold.....
Last edited:
casmurbax
Well-known member
Well that was quite the update.
Interesting though, thank you for sharing.
Interesting though, thank you for sharing.
stinkity stoink
Well-known member
well You gave me a bit of a laugh only because I can relate to your thought process and what I get myself into. 
nice looking car
nice looking car
You DO realize that posting those pics of your Merciless Bunz just pisses me off to no end. ANYTHING that age within a days drive of here is nothing but little chunks of rust held together with paint, bondo, fabric and sealants. I would show you a picture of the Ponton cabrio on my rotissary but I can't bear to make grown men cry.
OP
indisguise
Well-known member
Ok.... enough of the old german barges and back to the bike.... I left you with this last time....clearly a lie!
In the background progress was made on the JIG.
First a few cross bars were fabricated..These had bungs turned down on the lathe and then welded.
Then I started attaching stock to link these together...This all needed welding together, which honestly was rather disheartening. Currently my TIG welding is probably about a 2/10. Which is clearly not good enough for welding this frame. You will see later that things never went well and slowly deteriorated. However all of this is part of the adventure....
The welding....
Cold and inconsistent (I was trying really hard not to warp the jig!). Not sure why I used a bent piece of tube here....
Again riddled with inconsistent welding....and a spot of contamination....
I slowly started to find some consistency when I ran into a ton of porosity from contamination. I suddenly realized I failed to clean this piece and my Gas was running low....You will notice I started grinding the "junk" out...
Anyway not to worry... Here is the overall JIG. The last section really is a mess...but will suffice for now and its straight!
This should stop the majority of the warping and twisting when I eventually weld the frame.
Now the frame was JIG'd I was able to take some reference measurements and noticed the rear left shock mount was 2mm lower than the right. Therefore out with the Dremel...
Anyway, this entire adventure highlighted a weakness in my skills....welding. I knew this would be the case, however I'm probably further behind than I thought. Not to worry though.....lots and lots of practicing will hopefully fix this.
Many people will suggest taking this to an "Actual" welder. However that kind of defeats my goal.
Over the next few months I will go quiet and hopefully work on my welding skills....lets see...
In the background progress was made on the JIG.
First a few cross bars were fabricated..These had bungs turned down on the lathe and then welded.
Then I started attaching stock to link these together...This all needed welding together, which honestly was rather disheartening. Currently my TIG welding is probably about a 2/10. Which is clearly not good enough for welding this frame. You will see later that things never went well and slowly deteriorated. However all of this is part of the adventure....
The welding....
Cold and inconsistent (I was trying really hard not to warp the jig!). Not sure why I used a bent piece of tube here....
Again riddled with inconsistent welding....and a spot of contamination....
I slowly started to find some consistency when I ran into a ton of porosity from contamination. I suddenly realized I failed to clean this piece and my Gas was running low....You will notice I started grinding the "junk" out...
Anyway not to worry... Here is the overall JIG. The last section really is a mess...but will suffice for now and its straight!
This should stop the majority of the warping and twisting when I eventually weld the frame.
Now the frame was JIG'd I was able to take some reference measurements and noticed the rear left shock mount was 2mm lower than the right. Therefore out with the Dremel...
Anyway, this entire adventure highlighted a weakness in my skills....welding. I knew this would be the case, however I'm probably further behind than I thought. Not to worry though.....lots and lots of practicing will hopefully fix this.
Many people will suggest taking this to an "Actual" welder. However that kind of defeats my goal.
Over the next few months I will go quiet and hopefully work on my welding skills....lets see...
ez-duzit
Well-known member
2/10 might be better than my tig welding. And it might be good enough so you can tack everything in preparation of having a pro do the welding. Though I have the welding equipment, I design and fabricate, then have a pro weld it.
I think you need to look at some actual welding jigs to appreciate just how large and strong they need to be. Even then, there is NO WAY to keep the residual stresses from welding from distorting your finished parts...UNLESS you are prepared to make a very rigid jig, stress relieve it, check, correct and repeat if needed and weld up your parts and stress relieve before coming out of the jig. In reality, hardly anyone is going to do that, but will simply make the jig, verify it's dimensions and geometry, weld the part and accept the net overall inaccuracies of a welded part.Ok.... enough of the old german barges and back to the bike.... I left you with this last time....clearly a lie!
In the background progress was made on the JIG.
First a few cross bars were fabricated..These had bungs turned down on the lathe and then welded.
Then I started attaching stock to link these together...This all needed welding together, which honestly was rather disheartening. Currently my TIG welding is probably about a 2/10. Which is clearly not good enough for welding this frame. You will see later that things never went well and slowly deteriorated. However all of this is part of the adventure....
The welding....
Cold and inconsistent (I was trying really hard not to warp the jig!). . Here is the overall JIG. The last section really is a mess...but will suffice for now and its straight!
This should stop the majority of the warping and twisting when I eventually weld the frame.
Now the frame was JIG'd I was able to take some reference measurements and noticed the rear left shock mount was 2mm lower than the right. Therefore out with the Dremel...
That's where skill and experience kick in to design things that will tolerate and accommodate weld distortion.
driftpin
Well-known member
I admire your initiative. The shop I go to tackles all sorts of oddball stuff, besides the 'every-day' work like ZX-14's and Hyabusas built to whatever spec the customer's wallet can withstand.
I have a funny story about an early 1970's Mercedes-Benz 280 sedan one of my co-workers on fire-rescue owned. The body, being a south Florida car, and not on the ocean, was in very-good shape, but then again it should be as it was probably a bit more than 10 years old when this all occurred.
Their car started to burn some oil, and the below-the-bumper rear valance became grimy and oily, which of course also contaminated the rear of the car. They decided to get rid of it, and he took it to a VW dealer, where they traded it in on a new Jetta. The salesman was very eager to do the deal, and they were able to take possession of the Jetta before the weekend, it had a dealer paper tag.
Next week, they got the dealer's message, "your permanent tag is here, please come-in and we'll install it." They drove to the Ft. Lauderdale VW dealer. They dropped the shiny new Jetta at the service area, and started to the customer lounge. Then they saw the salesman who sold them the Jetta, coming towards them at a rapid pace.
"You should have told me, the Mercedes wasn't a diesel!" the salesman croaked. Evidently he saw the rear of the Mercedes, with its oil-soaked rear, and he assumed it was a diesel, which it wasn't. This was when the diesels were going for a premium, new or used, because of their mileage. The salesman gave them a trade-in evaluation based upon the Mercedes-Benz being a diesel, which it obviously wasn't. He would have found that out if he had test-driven the car before writing-up a trade-in/sale agreement.
My friend's Jetta had its new permanent tag installed, they got in the car and departed, not-bothering to engage the car salesman in any dialogue. That's one for the buyer and disappointment for the salesman.
I have a funny story about an early 1970's Mercedes-Benz 280 sedan one of my co-workers on fire-rescue owned. The body, being a south Florida car, and not on the ocean, was in very-good shape, but then again it should be as it was probably a bit more than 10 years old when this all occurred.
Their car started to burn some oil, and the below-the-bumper rear valance became grimy and oily, which of course also contaminated the rear of the car. They decided to get rid of it, and he took it to a VW dealer, where they traded it in on a new Jetta. The salesman was very eager to do the deal, and they were able to take possession of the Jetta before the weekend, it had a dealer paper tag.
Next week, they got the dealer's message, "your permanent tag is here, please come-in and we'll install it." They drove to the Ft. Lauderdale VW dealer. They dropped the shiny new Jetta at the service area, and started to the customer lounge. Then they saw the salesman who sold them the Jetta, coming towards them at a rapid pace.
"You should have told me, the Mercedes wasn't a diesel!" the salesman croaked. Evidently he saw the rear of the Mercedes, with its oil-soaked rear, and he assumed it was a diesel, which it wasn't. This was when the diesels were going for a premium, new or used, because of their mileage. The salesman gave them a trade-in evaluation based upon the Mercedes-Benz being a diesel, which it obviously wasn't. He would have found that out if he had test-driven the car before writing-up a trade-in/sale agreement.
My friend's Jetta had its new permanent tag installed, they got in the car and departed, not-bothering to engage the car salesman in any dialogue. That's one for the buyer and disappointment for the salesman.
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OP
indisguise
Well-known member
Wow...another lengthy pause there.... Happy New Year all.
So lets catch you folks up a little.. Be warned! Another long rambling thread will follow. Proceed with caution...
So as mentioned previously, the next step is to practice the welding. Now note! Everything you see here is 4130 and as we all know this stuff needs stress relieving when it's thicker than .120! A little foreshadowing I fear...
So on with lots of practicing...my welds are somewhat passable but not overly pretty...( a theme!)
Tube butting...
Then some thin tubes to thick mounts..
It was at this point I came to the conclusion..... I just to had to start. This frame would not be pretty, but hopefully functional and hence could be used to test my assumptions! A prototype if you will.... I was really trying to avoid perfect and hence not actually going anywhere....
So deep breath....
Not the neatest...but not terrible.... A trend that will follow....
Now some thicker metal mounts to the thinner tubes
I'm concentrating more on heat input than anything else here... Pretty welds are not going to happen with my torch time...
Soon I was moving along and things were going OK... however the harder challenge was always going to be the head tube...
The penetration to the thicker head tube is there...but I won't lie.. it could of done with more heat... although that in turn causes issues...which you will see later...
Now if you look really closely you will see that my in experience really starts to show here.. The welds are inconsistent and the heat input varies.. a story that continues...
As time continues I feel at ease doing the simple tubes....but others are infuriating, as access gets harder and harder and the gas coverage is difficult.
However, slowly the frame starts to take shape!
The next task was to "tie in" the two mounts at the rear. Originally this was done using a flat piece of steel. However this looked really odd. Time for some more cheap tools which will allow me to add some features..
Enter a Vevor special...
Which allowed me todo the following..
Which of course resulted in a fair few broken end mills...ahhh learning on the job
The resultant part actually came out nicely.
The shot above really details some of the issues I faced with welding. the welds are OK...but they are incredibly inconsistent and not overly pretty!.. Again lack of seat time here...
And finally....
Now, if you zoom in above you will see the two largest crimes on the frame:
Machining the bearing reliefs to allow me to remove them..
Next I measured the bearings and the frame to test for elongation... I read about this in a frame forum after machining and hence expected issues.
The race (using those metric units )
And you guessed it! The heat from welding had warped the head tube.
the two shots above demonstrate the oval. The left to right sides were narrow by .5mm and the top and bottom was over by 0.3mm. To combat this I will machine he narrow sides for press fit and then using bearing epoxy for the larger sides.. read NOT GREAT.
So out with more cheap tools..
Then machining...
This all actually worked rather well and the press fit was great!
At this point I started to wonder what else had warped! I placed the frame back in the jig and noticed the frame had compressed at the rear due to the heat. So it was time to learn to fix a warped frame.
Some delicate heat (note it must be delicate with 4130...you don't want to make it brittle by heating it a lot!) then some pressure...
Several cycles like this resulted in a fix!
Now to test if the head tube had warped....I again leveled the engine and lift, then marked the center points.
First the old fashioned bob line..
Wow..now that looks ok...
Now for Lazers!!!
By some sheer miracle this thing is as straight as an arrow! Result!!!
And one last shot of where I left it..
While many mistakes were clearly made, this is quite an achievement. I now have maximum respect for those professionals out there... its hard to make frames and I am nowhere close to the skill required...yet!
So what's the plan beyond this prototype? well first I need to ensure my assumptions are correct by finishing this bike. The frame will clearly survive several test rides since its way over built. Then if it works, I will machine the neck and mounts from mild steel and make the tubes from Docol R8. I live in the heart of motor sports and this stuff can be purchased easily. Docal is easier to weld and honestly favors people of my skills. FYI I have some in the garage already
And now for a change to regular programming....
This is back in he garage...
The valve seals were a waste of time...
So this happened...
Oily old beast TBH!
Did some clean up too...
Before:
After
I know this has been a long pause with no updates however I'm tiring a little from knowing what to share and what not.... The Benz will consume my time in the next few months...so shout if you are interested....
So lets catch you folks up a little.. Be warned! Another long rambling thread will follow. Proceed with caution...
So as mentioned previously, the next step is to practice the welding. Now note! Everything you see here is 4130 and as we all know this stuff needs stress relieving when it's thicker than .120! A little foreshadowing I fear
...So on with lots of practicing...my welds are somewhat passable but not overly pretty...( a theme!)
Tube butting...
Then some thin tubes to thick mounts..
It was at this point I came to the conclusion..... I just to had to start. This frame would not be pretty, but hopefully functional and hence could be used to test my assumptions! A prototype if you will.... I was really trying to avoid perfect and hence not actually going anywhere....
So deep breath....
Not the neatest...but not terrible.... A trend that will follow....
Now some thicker metal mounts to the thinner tubes
I'm concentrating more on heat input than anything else here... Pretty welds are not going to happen with my torch time...
Soon I was moving along and things were going OK... however the harder challenge was always going to be the head tube...
The penetration to the thicker head tube is there...but I won't lie.. it could of done with more heat... although that in turn causes issues...which you will see later...
Now if you look really closely you will see that my in experience really starts to show here.. The welds are inconsistent and the heat input varies.. a story that continues...
As time continues I feel at ease doing the simple tubes....but others are infuriating, as access gets harder and harder and the gas coverage is difficult.
However, slowly the frame starts to take shape!
The next task was to "tie in" the two mounts at the rear. Originally this was done using a flat piece of steel. However this looked really odd. Time for some more cheap tools which will allow me to add some features..
Enter a Vevor special...
Which allowed me todo the following..
Which of course resulted in a fair few broken end mills...ahhh learning on the job
The resultant part actually came out nicely.
The shot above really details some of the issues I faced with welding. the welds are OK...but they are incredibly inconsistent and not overly pretty!.. Again lack of seat time here...
And finally....
Now, if you zoom in above you will see the two largest crimes on the frame:
- Where the three tubes meet the top tube the weld got out of control and way too hot! Its a huge weld that looks horrible.
- Where the down tubes meet the neck you will see I had to ground out some porosity! This is where my tank was running low on Argon again!
- The neck tube is clearly above .120. I spent time trying to reduce the thickness, however it was closer to .18 when done...
- The mounts all have areas which are above .120 which again are there for strength, however this is again an issue when using 4130.
- Some of the welds to the neck probably need a little more heat, while I have good penetration when looking inside, I'm still concerned...
- Some of the "fit ups" were just not good enough. Gaps of any size create inconsistent welds and my skill can't factor this in.
Machining the bearing reliefs to allow me to remove them..
Next I measured the bearings and the frame to test for elongation... I read about this in a frame forum after machining and hence expected issues.
The race (using those metric units
)
And you guessed it! The heat from welding had warped the head tube.
the two shots above demonstrate the oval. The left to right sides were narrow by .5mm and the top and bottom was over by 0.3mm. To combat this I will machine he narrow sides for press fit and then using bearing epoxy for the larger sides.. read NOT GREAT.
So out with more cheap tools..
Then machining...
This all actually worked rather well and the press fit was great!
At this point I started to wonder what else had warped! I placed the frame back in the jig and noticed the frame had compressed at the rear due to the heat. So it was time to learn to fix a warped frame.
Some delicate heat (note it must be delicate with 4130...you don't want to make it brittle by heating it a lot!) then some pressure...
Several cycles like this resulted in a fix!
Now to test if the head tube had warped....I again leveled the engine and lift, then marked the center points.
First the old fashioned bob line..
Wow..now that looks ok...
Now for Lazers!!!
By some sheer miracle this thing is as straight as an arrow! Result!!!
And one last shot of where I left it..
While many mistakes were clearly made, this is quite an achievement. I now have maximum respect for those professionals out there... its hard to make frames and I am nowhere close to the skill required...yet!
So what's the plan beyond this prototype? well first I need to ensure my assumptions are correct by finishing this bike. The frame will clearly survive several test rides since its way over built. Then if it works, I will machine the neck and mounts from mild steel and make the tubes from Docol R8. I live in the heart of motor sports and this stuff can be purchased easily. Docal is easier to weld and honestly favors people of my skills. FYI I have some in the garage already
And now for a change to regular programming....
This is back in he garage...
The valve seals were a waste of time...
So this happened...
Oily old beast TBH!
Did some clean up too...
Before:
After
I know this has been a long pause with no updates however I'm tiring a little from knowing what to share and what not.... The Benz will consume my time in the next few months...so shout if you are interested....
OP
indisguise
Well-known member
Oh great...the long posts with photo links clearly don't work well. Let me edit this...
OP
indisguise
Well-known member
@jake28 TBH your recent fantastic updates inspired this post. Your garage is amazing!
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RoninB4
Well-known member
-As a long time toolmaker and motorcycle rider I have an appreciation for what you're doing. I won't say a word about your welding, I keep a rattle can of paint handy to hide mine. I will comment about the head tube bore for the bearings. There's a lot of vibration marks in the bore either from 1) too long a boring bar 2) Bad geometry at the cutting edge 3) you were just running the spindle too fast OR 4) a combination of any/all of the 3.
The carbide boring bars in sets like that are usually not a good grade of carbide, not sharpened well, or not enough primary/secondary clearance. Carbide is not easily sharpened at home so I would suggest either using HSS or getting a diamond wheel and a proper grinder (expensive) if you insist on using carbide. Carbide also easily chips if there's vibration present while machining.
Aside from that the frame looks good so far and I applaud your efforts. Hope you made drawings or a CAD model of everything for reference. Oh and....that Benz still looks terrific to my eye. Thanks for posting everything.
The carbide boring bars in sets like that are usually not a good grade of carbide, not sharpened well, or not enough primary/secondary clearance. Carbide is not easily sharpened at home so I would suggest either using HSS or getting a diamond wheel and a proper grinder (expensive) if you insist on using carbide. Carbide also easily chips if there's vibration present while machining.
Aside from that the frame looks good so far and I applaud your efforts. Hope you made drawings or a CAD model of everything for reference. Oh and....that Benz still looks terrific to my eye. Thanks for posting everything.
larry4406
Well-known member
Nice update! Nice work on the frame.
Keep us posted.
Keep us posted.
Another thought, which I think I’d shared somewhere else in this thread: the goal for welding this frame shouldn’t be aesthetics.
The internet is rife with armchair welders and YouTube viewers proclaiming that anything by less than a mirrored rainbow-hued stack of robotic dimes should be a source of shame and direct path to Hades without passing Go.
You’re making a single frame, not a bridge or the Challenger. Even with half decent welding, the odds of a catastrophic failure resulting in casualties are low. Your life is in your hands: so trust in your abilities. It’s akin to why there is a carve out in refs for home-built ultra-light aircraft. You’re going to know the machine and assembly better than anyone. The first time you tip it over into a turn I hope you’re not thinking about metal fatigue and heat-affected zones.
The internet is rife with armchair welders and YouTube viewers proclaiming that anything by less than a mirrored rainbow-hued stack of robotic dimes should be a source of shame and direct path to Hades without passing Go.
You’re making a single frame, not a bridge or the Challenger. Even with half decent welding, the odds of a catastrophic failure resulting in casualties are low. Your life is in your hands: so trust in your abilities. It’s akin to why there is a carve out in refs for home-built ultra-light aircraft. You’re going to know the machine and assembly better than anyone. The first time you tip it over into a turn I hope you’re not thinking about metal fatigue and heat-affected zones.
OP
indisguise
Well-known member
@RoninB4 Its probably 2 and 3. This is my first time trying this with cheap tools...
OP
indisguise
Well-known member
I could not agree more with this quote. The YouTube nation has bred a ton of "experts" who have yet to even strike an arc...
Again this is all about the journey!
Thanks @jake28!
RoninB4
Well-known member
-Didn't mean to criticize you, just didn't know your experience level. I was awarded a similar "imported" boring head set and found myself rather disappointed using it for the first time. The head is about what one would expect from the COO, functional but nothing to be proud of. The bars themselves are where I found the greater problem as the geometry isn't ground on there like it needs to be. Unless I've got harder material I prefer to use HSS to get a sharper edge without worrying about the fragile nature of carbide with a similar edge. Not knowing your experience level was entirely the basis for my suggestions.
yhprum
Well-known member
Thanks for posting. I’ve wanted to do something like this for a long time.
Your welding looks good from my house. You’ve probably seen photos of factory welds on some Supercars, and they hold lol.
I’ve seen some jobs where all the tubing segments have internal holes drilled so when the assembly is completely welded up, it can be pressurised. A small pressure guage is permanently mounted someplace. As part of your preflight routine, you check it to make sure it’s still holding pressure.
Your welding looks good from my house. You’ve probably seen photos of factory welds on some Supercars, and they hold lol.
I’ve seen some jobs where all the tubing segments have internal holes drilled so when the assembly is completely welded up, it can be pressurised. A small pressure guage is permanently mounted someplace. As part of your preflight routine, you check it to make sure it’s still holding pressure.