Show your "Long C" Craftsman!

[Oldtuleguy]

Some great points there joco. I have wondered about that circle h stamp as well. Maybe we can get gearwolf to weigh in on this as well.

 

[Smokeshow69]

Bottom line up front: When did New Britain start using the Circle H stamp?

Smokeshow recently posted that he was looking for a 1/2" speeder with the rotating forehand grip on it to replace one without the forehand grip in a post war 1/2d set. That got me thinking and rooting through my assorted 1/2d speeders.

I had to go back to the 1934 catalog to find an illustration of a 1/2d speeder without the rotating forehandle. I've got both with and without in both H and BE. I've always assumed that BE came first (and I think this is correct as the earliest NB drive tools and sockets are all marked BE) and that there was a period of time when NB was using both stamps. I also believe that at some point, BE went away and the dying breath of the NB Sears tools were all marked H. I've never seen a BE marked piece with the =CRAFTSMAN= logo on it. Only H.

I recall reading a post from Twertsey here in Vintage Tools detailing the demise of the Husky plant but I can't find it. As I remember it, Todd dispelled the myth that Circle H tools were made in the Kenosha plant as the plant was abandoned and all the tooling moved to CT when NB bought it out (1931-ish??). Am I dreaming that? If not can somebody point me in the right direction to find that conversation?

I might be overthinking this but my thoughts are that NB started using the Circle H stamp once they moved the Husky tooling from WI to CT and used it to designate tools made on the former Husky machinery. Forgive me if this horse has already been beaten.

Thanks Smokeshow! I just looked at 15 pre-war 1/2d speeders!!!!

Both of the pictured speeders are Circle H.

Scott- you are welcome! I am always glad to be an instigator. I think the New Britain thread covers this theory but don’t quote me on that?? I don’t even have 15 vintage craftsman speeders to compare[emoji23]


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[Outlawmws]

My notes say 1931-47 for circle H

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I might be overthinking this but my thoughts are that NB started using the Circle H stamp once they moved the Husky tooling from WI to CT and used it to designate tools made on the former Husky machinery.

It's a good 'compromise theory' in the sense that it might explain why NB would even need a second code to begin with (H=Husky machinery) if H=Husky plant in Kenosha is chronologically impossible. But if the tools are identical or nearly identical (in the sense that they BE and H were clearly made with NB dies, for NB patents and designs on those Husky machines), and all made by the same company, why would Sears require a separate code? Is there precedence for them wanting traceability to particular machines? Unless the separate codes were an NB convention for their own purposes. I'm not throwing darts here, just floating things we would need to come to grips with.

 

[JoCoSawdust]

All good questions Lugz and I have no issues with weak links being pointed out in my theory. My theory is completely unsubstantiated and unfortunately will probably remain as such barring somebody finding a stack of dusty yellow papers from NB explaining what the heck was up with the H code.

The only other example of a company contracted by Sears using two different codes is the SK examples that can bear either the Circle K mark or BM. Of course we've discussed this before in here and I think the general assumption is that BM marked tools were manufactured in the Brazil plant while the K marked tools were manufactured in the SK plant. Those markings do serve as another example where markings are time-sensitive with BM only appearing on the very earliest of Craftsman offerings.

My gut feeling is that the use of two codes is more likely to be a NB issue, not Sears. Perhaps a quality control measure? The fact that the markings are time sensitive may support the "machinery theory". There's anecdotal evidence that the use of two codes has three phases. Early tools only show up bearing the BE mark. For a period of time, the codes overlap. We can establish that the H code goes back to at least 1934, possibly earlier, based on the 1/2d speed wrench with no rotating foregrip. I think the strongest augument for the codes being tied to machinery is what happens towards the end of the NB/Sears relationship. The BE mark simply goes away. Every NB item I've seen wearing the =CRAFTSMAN= logo has had the H code. The fact that Sears was courting other makers couldn't have been a secret. Perhaps NB decided to change tooling for the new logo only on the line that was using the H code until they knew whether or not their Sears contract would continue. .

Of course I realize this theory doesn't take into account everything else NB had going on through the years. I realize they were a solid tool company in their own right with at least the NB and None Better brands.

Anyhow...ramblings over my morning coffee. If anyone has examples of very early NB-made Craftsman with an H code or very late (new logo era) tools wearing the BE code I'd love to see them.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Since we don't have a Pre-Long C thread, I'll just leave this morning's flea market find right here.

The last time I found a Fulton tool, it was this set of ignition pliers...

...linked here for more pics and info, made by Kulp-Dellenger (K-D).

This half-moon wrench was made by Vlchek, one of my other favorite mfgrs. The round shank helps ID it, and the "BT" code confirms it.

It's a new one for my non-redundant Half-Moon wrench collection.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

And to get us back on topic, here's an, er, um, offset hinge handle I also snagged at the flea market this morning. Craftsman BE. 3/8-inch drive.

 

[Outlawmws]

Holy crud, somebody sure leaned on that one!

What's also amazing is it never got turned in for a replacement!

Maybe a bent handle will show up and you can make one good from 2 bad...

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I was amazed that the force was so great that half the drive stud twisted at all without breaking, and especially without the pin breaking first. Which is exactly what I told the seller yesterday morning when I first had the tool in my hands, precipitating the Paul Harvey part of this funny flea market fable. He wanted $10. I told him it was an interesting conversation piece, but not THAT interesting.

So today I go back and he's there again and so is the tool. I'm wearing a different hat and a different mask and, on instinct, I pick it up and ask him how much, without letting on that we talked about it yesterday.

He said, "10 bucks."

I said, "Dude, it's broke."

He said, and I quote, "But it's an interesting conversation piece."

HAHA!

I got it for $2.

 

[Old Radar]

I doubt seriously that a socket was used during that hinge handle failure. In normal use, I think a socket would have failed first. They probably jammed the tip into a 3/8ish gap in something heavy or solid and tried to open it up. They were either too embarrassed to claim the warranty or if they did, Sears may have called it abuse.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Agreed.

 

[Outlawmws]

Sears didn't have an "abuse" clause in the warranty; all that mattered was "customer not satisfied" for Craftsman. (A few products exempted like vises)

 

[DD T/A]

Sears didn't have an "abuse" clause in the warranty; all that mattered was "customer not satisfied" for Craftsman. (A few products exempted like vises)

Exactly. I went and turned in a flare wrench about 10 years ago and they threw it in a copier paper box filled with only about 15 other tools and one of them was more than likely a circle H or a BE breaker broken the same way and several other very crusty old tools. I was just a young kid with zero interest in vintage tools at the time and even I asked the two middle age women, "Wow so the warranty goes back that far?" and they replied that it is "no-questions-asked". Upper management from sears was tired of getting customer complaints and told all district stores to accept anything with Craftsman that currently carried a lifetime warranty.(not screwdrivers, etc)

I had lots of respect for Craftsman after that. I don't care what kinda Snap-On Mac Matco snob anybody is, you can get a lot done with Craftsman and any average joe used to be able to drive to a local Sears and get it switched on the spot.

 

[Provincial]

At an estate sale Saturday I found a Long-C pipe threading set. It is sourced from Reed (Circle-J) and has the dies and guides for 1/2", 3/4", and 1". It also came with a tapered bar that I assume was used to reopen the bore of the pipe after the pipe cutter left an internal burr in the end. The dies all seem to be in good shape, and the ratchet works like it should. There is some surface rust.

This must have been a transition piece because it has a Heritage label slapped on the side of the carrier in a sloppy manner.

I got a good deal on it because there were so many empty slots for the dies and guides. I suspect that this was a simple set with the most common household sizes and the carrier was built to accommodate a full set of dies.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

This must have been a transition piece because it has a Heritage label slapped on the side of the carrier in a sloppy manner.

Unless my count is off and I am leaving someone out (and please speak up if that's the case...), that makes three of these Reed drop-head type threader sets on this thread now. You can see photos of mine here, and if you scroll up to post #272 from there, you can see Smokeshow's. The other dies and guides were 1/4" and 3/8".

Interestingly, all three are slightly different in terms of some of the markings.

On the top of the head of the diestock, mine has REED MFG CO forged in, yours has the Long C Craftsman forged in, and it looks like Smoke's is blank there.

Yours and mine have the Heritage stickers slapped hastily on the carrier (patented by Reed, 1,961,450 in 1934, by the way, for the way the handle of the die stock doubles as the handle for the carrier - which is rather ingenious), whereas Smoke's has the Long C sticker there.

My dies all have Long C markings, and I am assuming yours and Smoke's do.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

It also came with a tapered bar that I assume was used to reopen the bore of the pipe after the pipe cutter left an internal burr in the end.

Where did the bar go? Inside the handle? Mine didn't include that.

 

[JoCoSawdust]

Nice find Provincial. Another pre-war version here. No tapered pipe on mine either. I'm also curious as to how that's stored on yours. Lugz: That's a great Fulton cased set you have there. Case appears to be in amzing condition!

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Another pre-war version here.

So I did miscount and forget someone. Thanks for piping up. Have to say, of the four, yours is clearly in the most intact condition. Lots of paint left with two matching Long C decals. What is forged-in on the top of the diestock? The Long C logo, like Jock's? Or REED MFG CO, like mine? Maybe we can start to sequence these.

Lugz: That's a great Fulton cased set you have there. Case appears to be in amazing condition!

Thanks. It is. Just to clarify, I found that and showed it back in March in more detail, linked here. Just showed it again because of the Vlchek-made Fulton half-moon wrench I found yesterday. Those are my only two Fulton items.

 

[Smokeshow69]

Unless my count is off and I am leaving someone out (and please speak up if that's the case...), that makes three of these Reed drop-head type threader sets on this thread now. You can see photos of mine here, and if you scroll up to post #272 from there, you can see Smokeshow's. The other dies and guides were 1/4" and 3/8".

Interestingly, all three are slightly different in terms of some of the markings.

On the top of the head of the diestock, mine has REED MFG CO forged in, yours has the Long C Craftsman forged in, and it looks like Smoke's is blank there.

Yours and mine have the Heritage stickers slapped hastily on the carrier (patented by Reed, 1,961,450 in 1934, by the way, for the way the handle of the die stock doubles as the handle for the carrier - which is rather ingenious), whereas Smoke's has the Long C sticker there.

My dies all have Long C markings, and I am assuming yours and Smoke's do.

Lugz I believe mine has forged in long c markings but will have to check. It is displayed up on a shelf in my garage


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[JoCoSawdust]

Well damn. No cool cast-in Long C logo on the headstock for me. Could be BN or BH, I lean towards it being BN when I look at it really close. No markings on the reverse side. I guess they made up for it in decals as there's yet a third large waterslide Long C decal on the other side of the carrier. I really need to clean this thing up as it's still in as-found condition after a year or more. With Jock's having the cast-in logo placed in a Heritage marked carrier I'd speculate the sequence to be the BN mark, Long C cast-in, then the Reed cast-in? I know Reed supplied Sears with these up to and including at least the Crown logo. Anyone with a Crown set and if so, what kind of marking is on the headstock? Another side thought: It's interesting that your headstock is marked Reed logo Lugz. That's only the second instance I'm aware of where a Sears-bound product bore any mention of the OEM. The other instance being with the King-Seeley made machines in the Heritage era. There's probably more cases of that but those two are the only ones I'm aware of.

 

[Provincial]

As requested, here are photos of the tapered swedge that came with my set. I believe it is not part of the set because there is no place for it to stow if you have more than three die sets. It sits under the head/handle unit and occupies all but two of the die stowage pockets.

I call it a swedge because it seems to be hammered on the large end and the diameter is compatible with 1/2" to 1" pipe inside diameters. When you use a standard pipe cutter with the rolling knives, it leaves a burr on the ID of the pipe, causing a restriction. The common way to remove this burr is to use a tapered reamer. It looks like this tool is just driven into the pipe end and it forces the burr outward, leaving the pipe bore unrestricted. The dimensions of this one are 12" long, small end diameter 3/8", and large end diameter 1-3/16".

I also have a smaller version of this swedge. I've had it for years and thought it was some sort of odd punch. It would be good for 3/16 to 1/2" tubing, The dimension on this one are 6-3/8" long, 3/32" small end and 7/16" large end.

Photo 1 is the large swedge.
Photo 2 is the swedge stowed in the carrier.
Photo 3 is the small swedge.

Edit to add:

My dies have the Long-C marking.
I am missing one of the knurled screws that hold the die in place.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Kind of neat to have with it even if it's a PO accessory.

If I run across one that's trashed I'll see if I can salvage your missing set screw.

 

[DadsTools]

The only other example of a company contracted by Sears using two different codes is the SK examples that can bear either the Circle K mark or BM. Of course we've discussed this before in here and I think the general assumption is that BM marked tools were manufactured in the Brazil plant while the K marked tools were manufactured in the SK plant. Those markings do serve as another example where markings are time-sensitive with BM only appearing on the very earliest of Craftsman offerings.

My gut feeling is that the use of two codes is more likely to be a NB issue, not Sears. Perhaps a quality control measure? The fact that the markings are time sensitive may support the "machinery theory". There's anecdotal evidence that the use of two codes has three phases. Early tools only show up bearing the BE mark. For a period of time, the codes overlap. We can establish that the H code goes back to at least 1934, possibly earlier, based on the 1/2d speed wrench with no rotating foregrip. I think the strongest augument for the codes being tied to machinery is what happens towards the end of the NB/Sears relationship. The BE mark simply goes away. Every NB item I've seen wearing the =CRAFTSMAN= logo has had the H code. The fact that Sears was courting other makers couldn't have been a secret. Perhaps NB decided to change tooling for the new logo only on the line that was using the H code until they knew whether or not their Sears contract would continue.

It's a good 'compromise theory' in the sense that it might explain why NB would even need a second code to begin with (H=Husky machinery) if H=Husky plant in Kenosha is chronologically impossible. But if the tools are identical or nearly identical (in the sense that they BE and H were clearly made with NB dies, for NB patents and designs on those Husky machines), and all made by the same company, why would Sears require a separate code? Is there precedence for them wanting traceability to particular machines? Unless the separate codes were an NB convention for their own purposes. I'm not throwing darts here, just floating things we would need to come to grips with.

Although this has nothing to do with the early period being discussed, and the circumstances are a little different, there is a similar example of a Cman contract mfr using two different codes at the same time. This is during the period after the 1967 Easco takeover of MDF until about 1986, where certain otherwise identical tools con bear either a single V code or a double VV code (Lauver reports the start of the VV code in 1974, but artifacts exist that indicate VV was used as early as the late 1960s). We found this during my RHFT ratchet research, as did Jim C. with his Teardrop Ratchet study. In the case of the ratchets, the VV showing is a small minority compared to the V code. The explanation for this is not apparent. At least two hypotheses have been discussed (having some science background, I hesitate to use the term "theory" as it means something very specific and so requiring a higher standard):

1. Court records from the Roberts lawsuit show that Sears was selling an almost dizzying number of quick release ratchets during this time period. Sears employed another mfr to take up some of the volume that Easco couldn't meet.

2. When Easco took over MDF, it had multiple factories in different parts of the country for products other than hand tools. There were four factories just in the Springfield area alone, although it appears that only one of these was devoted exclusively for tools. To handle the excess, another Easco factory produced the additional volume that the main tool factory couldn't handle. Tools made in the secondary factory were designated with the double-VV.

All that can be said for sure is that the VV code had to have a specific purpose. Scenario #1 is less likely because we really have no evidence whatsoever that a second mfr beside Easco was contracted to make these tools during this time. It also seems unlikely that Sears would have designated Easco's "V" code for a completely different mfr, So #2 seems more probable. But even so, it's all just speculation.

Again, while not precisely the same scenario being discussed, it is an example of Sears using two different codes for what was most likely the same contract mfr.

 

[Outlawmws]

Vlchek had both BC and BT
Danielson had AO adn AC?

From my cribbed list so I have no hard backup

 

[outofbounds]

In the event someone might be looking for old auger bit sets.....(I have no affiliation to seller)
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/342029197156267

 

[JoCoSawdust]

Thanks for the insight Dads. My collector interest pretty much fizzles out after the =V= code stuff so I'm pretty ignorant of anything after that. That does, howerver, explain why most of the stuff I got as a kid and young adult are both -V- and VV. I learn something every day!

Outlaw, I've never seen any Craftsman branded Vlchek with the BC mark. Any idea what tools they were found on?

 

[Outlawmws]

Apparently just striking tools from my notes. Jo

 

[JoCoSawdust]

Thanks. I'll have to keep my eyes peeled.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Outlaw, I've never seen any Craftsman branded Vlchek with the BC mark. Any idea what tools they were found on?

Apparently just striking tools from my notes. Jo

I posted one example - a punch, upthread, linked here.

 

[JoCoSawdust]

Thanks Lugz. I'll be digging through my punches tomorrow. I'll start a separate thread for every one of them. I'm a MASSIVE punch collector!!

 

[d42jeep]

Check out this post. I think you have some.
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8341133&postcount=1587
-Don

 

[JoCoSawdust]

Thanks Don. Wow...I do have one or two! I've been sitting here resisting the temptation to go out to the shop. Once that was planted in my brainpan I seemed to recall seeing the BC mark. Didn't realize it was Vlchek.

 

[Smokeshow69]

Thanks Don. Wow...I do have one or two! I've been sitting here resisting the temptation to go out to the shop. Once that was planted in my brainpan I seemed to recall seeing the BC mark. Didn't realize it was Vlchek.

I only have one but this is one of my favorite punches! I actually use this one but I think it is modified? BC marked



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[Provincial]

Yes, cut down from a 5/32" pin punch. I've done that!

 

[GrayFlattop]

Unless my count is off and I am leaving someone out (and please speak up if that's the case...), that makes three of these Reed drop-head type threader sets on this thread now. You can see photos of mine here, and if you scroll up to post #272 from there, you can see Smokeshow's. The other dies and guides were 1/4" and 3/8".

Interestingly, all three are slightly different in terms of some of the markings.

On the top of the head of the diestock, mine has REED MFG CO forged in, yours has the Long C Craftsman forged in, and it looks like Smoke's is blank there.

Yours and mine have the Heritage stickers slapped hastily on the carrier (patented by Reed, 1,961,450 in 1934, by the way, for the way the handle of the die stock doubles as the handle for the carrier - which is rather ingenious), whereas Smoke's has the Long C sticker there.

My dies all have Long C markings, and I am assuming yours and Smoke's do.

I finally took a close look at the pipe threader set that been riding along in my van for the last year. Looks like another transition piece with the Long C forged into the head and heritage decals on the carrier. I picked it up at a house clean out - I’ll be posting this and more on the garage sale thread when I can get my act together and clean/organize it.


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[GrayFlattop]

Yes, cut down from a 5/32" pin punch. I've done that!

I found a few abused Long C chisels, a 3/8 ratchet and a few tappet wrenches. The tappet wrenches have been in my tool box since my favorite uncle passed away in the late 60’s. The chisels and ratchet were from the house clean out I spoke of earlier. Poor ratchet looks like hell, but still works smoothly!
The DOE wrench was also from my uncle’s shop way back when.


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[Private Lugnutz]

Briefly back on the subject of the Reed-made drop head pipe threaders...

I saw this Reed-made and Reed-branded set this morning at my flea. First one I have ever seen. They're always Craftsman. I didn't buy it, but I snapped some photos. (I thought about you and your missing nut, Jock, but it was too expensive to buy to salvage.)

 

[d42jeep]

I actually posted these upthread but here they are again. I’ve had the top one for a really long time.
-Don

 

[JoCoSawdust]

Briefly back on the subject of the Reed-made drop head pipe threaders...

I saw this Reed-made and Reed-branded set this morning at my flea. First one I have ever seen. They're always Craftsman. I didn't buy it, but I snapped some photos. (I thought about you and your missing nut, Jock, but it was too expensive to buy to salvage.)

Interesting set. Very cool decal on it.

 

[Username already in use]

Posted this on the Hold-e-zee thread. Belongs here too: