Between 265 & 485 SQ/FT The Scooter Workshop

[Modern Jess]

Jess, what a great build! The electrical conduit...perfect score. We completely redid my company's new home starting from a warehouse gut. The wall system was a furred airspace assembly, so 2x6 walls with fiberglass R20, 2 inches SM (on the inside!), foil reflective vapor barrier facing inside, then 2x2 horizontal furring, then drywall. The airspace provides channels to run all electrical etc. on the warm side of the envelope, and also a thermal reflective space. Typically heat costs for a building our size (very cold winters with lows in the -35C range) would be $2500/month. We spent a max of $378 in the coldest month. Conversely, we see +30C in the summer, and our electrical bill never exceeded $450/month in summer..that's AC, 10 staff/computers and two tenants. I suspect your wall system works just as well.

Wow, that's quite a reduction in heating / cooling costs! My HVAC bill for the shop is actually zero, since I have neither heat nor AC in there. I might put a mini-split system in eventually, but I wanted to see what I could do with passive insulation first. We're relatively temperate here in Sunny California, but our specific location runs toward the hot side in summer.

and also you're apparently crazy for driving them cross continent..ha.

It does take a certain amount of, errr... imbalance to attempt such a trip, though I'm far from the first person to do so.

Have you done any zwave or zigby automation in your space? I'm looking at a weather station/zwave to add some efficiencies to my business HVAC system. It looks like you're already well immersed in the weather portion of that goal...

I haven't delved into zigby/zwave/insteon/etc yet, though it might happen at some point. I generally prefer hard-wired solutions where possible, and then fall back to wireless where it's just not feasible to wire.

Yesterday, I put in all the wiring for a secondary temperature sensing module (also from Xytronix). I'm putting in three temperature / humidity sensors: one outside the shop, one inside the shop, and one in the compressor closet. The Xytronix module will monitor all of them (using the 1wire protocol) and also has on-board relays. The unit is programmable, so I can script it to turn on either of the two fans in the shop when there is a favorable temperature differential between inside and outside. It can also kick on a fan that draws air through the compressor closet whenever temperatures in the closet get too high.

That's the plan, anyway.

I wish I had not read this thread...damn. I can see $$$ blowing into my garage project.

Well, you might as well just delete your Garage Journal bookmark, then. This place has a way of making your wallet thinner than before you got here.

 

[littlebritishcar]

Small project this evening while I'm waiting for the 90-minute mud to dry. This will be significant to maybe three people here, but so be it.

I needed some drawer pulls for the cabinets I put in a few weeks back. This is what I chose. By the time I'm done with this shop build, there won't be very much patina left in the building. It's not that I don't like patina, it's just that I'm building a different kind of space to work in. These, though, are a deliberate bit of "old stuff" that fits well with the theme of this workshop.

Cool, are those Vespa side panel catches? I have been thinking about using Lambretta side panel handles for a set of cabinets I have.

 

[Modern Jess]

Cool, are those Vespa side panel catches? I have been thinking about using Lambretta side panel handles for a set of cabinets I have.

Yes, yes they are. And Lambretta catches would work well too.

I was originally experimenting around with using a fuel tap lever and / or a choke knob in addition to the cowl latch, but the cowl latch just "worked" and so I picked up a couple more to make a set.

 

[Modern Jess]

Another corner done.

Next up: another suspended shelf, like the one on the other side of the shop.

 

[Modern Jess]

I had a productive weekend. Yesterday (Saturday), I finished up the sanding, put the PVA primer on, and managed to squeeze in the first coat of paint. Today, I did the second coat of paint, and before it was even really fully dry, I was lagging strut channel to the wall. One thing led to another, and I actually got the whole suspended shelf put up. I still need to trim it out and put a layer of drywall on the underside of it to tidy things up, but I'm pretty happy with the progress for the weekend.

The strut channel starting to go up:

Once again, I used my mini-motorcycle lift to fine-tune the positioning of the strut channel. I have used this for so many different non-motorcycle tasks, I should give this thing an award for Most Versatile Tool.

The magnet trick worked this time. I left barrel nuts right behind the drywall in the ceiling / soffit (to attach the all-thread to). On the first shelf, I couldn't find them with a magnet, and ended up making a mess hunting around for them (and then inevitably patching the mess). This time I used a bigger magnet. The effect was somewhat weak, but I could definitely find the center of the barrel nut. When I drilled through the drywall, I found I nailed the location perfectly. w00t!

All the strut channel is up, starting to put up the melamine surface and the all-thread suspension.

Shelf is up!

 

[dhubbard422]

Nice. Lots of progress!

 

[Modern Jess]

Nice. Lots of progress!

Indeed. This project has been really slow, but part of that is that the progress is often necessary but not very visible or photo-worthy. 'Twas nice to do something that I can show for a change.

 

[sakurama]

It's looking really good!

How high is the bottom of that shelf? I wish I had higher ceilings for that kind of storage space. It's great to place the seldom used stuff high but nearby.

Gregor

 

[Modern Jess]

How high is the bottom of that shelf? I wish I had higher ceilings for that kind of storage space. It's great to place the seldom used stuff high but nearby.

It's approximately 80 inches, give or take an inch depending on slab irregularities. My ceiling height is just a hair over 8' -- maybe 8' 3" to the bare rafter ties.

As it turns out, quite a bit will fit under that 80" mark -- air compressors, rolling cabinets, even my big rolling wire shelves. This particular mod was well worth it to get stuff off the floor and out of the way.

 

[On-Wheel]

What a trip finding your new place on googls sat.Good for you man!

 

[Modern Jess]

What a trip finding your new place on googls sat.Good for you man!

Thanks! It was an unconventional house search. Just ask my wife.

On second though, maybe you shouldn't bring up the subject.

 

[Denwood]

That strut channel is a great idea. We used similar to mount our AC compressors off the ground outside the shop. Magnet trick on the nuts = smart.

Yesterday, I put in all the wiring for a secondary temperature sensing module (also from Xytronix). I'm putting in three temperature / humidity sensors: one outside the shop, one inside the shop, and one in the compressor closet. The Xytronix module will monitor all of them (using the 1wire protocol) and also has on-board relays. The unit is programmable, so I can script it to turn on either of the two fans in the shop when there is a favorable temperature differential between inside and outside. It can also kick on a fan that draws air through the compressor closet whenever temperatures in the closet get too high.

I was looking to do the same with an Ecobee thermostat (wifi, weather aware) with remote sensors and our HRV unit. The Ecobee can control a few external devices. I'll definitely be doing some research on your setup. We have nine thermostats between the infloor heat, and air handlers. Right now, they are neither automated nor communicating, so I do the seasonal shuffle. The building does not require heat until temps drop below 5 C (around 40F) so the bigger challenge has been cooling. Clerestory windows operated using some add-on temperature controlled (solar powered!) window operators have been working great for passive convective cooling: http://solarsmartopener.com/
I've been bugging them to add some automation options..and they have!

I'm going to do some research on the Xytronix setup...anything you can post here about your setup would be great.

 

[Getho]

Any updates?

 

[Modern Jess]

Any updates?

Working on them. I took a break from the renovation project for a while to get a few other household projects done -- rainwater harvesting tank, some built-ins in the house, etc. Also, I was kind of burned out. I've just returned to it in the last few days, so I should have some updates in a week or so.

Thanks for the reminder, though. It's good to know someone is out there watching.

 

[Modern Jess]

Here's a teaser in advance of the next update, and literally the only picture I've taken inside the shop in a month. I'm working on the ventilation for the compressor closet, and it has -- in typical Modern Jess fashion -- become an exercise in maximum complexity. I'm trying to hide all the ducting, and I have some very tight quarters to work in. That has necessitated making some custom ductwork, including some wall-stack pieces. This is one of those pieces, before I cut a hole in the side for a transition to a round 5" segment. After this picture was taken, I taped up the edges to prevent air loss.

Needless to say, I am not an HVAC professional, and this is the first time I've ever built my own ductwork.

 

[Getho]

Working on them. I took a break from the renovation project for a while to get a few other household projects done -- rainwater harvesting tank, some built-ins in the house, etc. Also, I was kind of burned out. I've just returned to it in the last few days, so I should have some updates in a week or so.

Thanks for the reminder, though. It's good to know someone is out there watching.

Wasn't trying to rush you

Just trying to live through you to a certain degree!

 

[Modern Jess]

Wasn't trying to rush you

Just trying to live through you to a certain degree!

Oh, no worries at all.

 

[Modern Jess]

LED Lights

Here's something that I don't think I've posted about yet. I actually finished this back in July or thereabouts.

For the "main" strip of lights down the center of the shop, I settled on Cree CR-LE lights. Each two-foot LED strip puts out 3200 lumens and consumes 35 watts, and the light quality is awesome. With these, augmented by all the Cree 4" recessed lights around the walls, I have great light everywhere, in every corner.

The main strip is fed from some salvaged NEMA conduit that a friend of mine gave me. The channel runs the length of the shop, and has enough capacity for four bazillion more conductors. So overkill, yes. But it was free.

And I finally get to say that my shop lighting is 100% LED. Yes, it can be done. And yes, it can be awesome. Okay, still a bit expensive. Two out of three ain't bad.

 

[stickyfrog]

Hey jess. I haven't been lurking this forum for quite awhile but happy to run across your thread. Someone posted a link to it from another forum that shall not be named. Very impressed with your build. I remember when you first posted pictures of the second garage. It's come a long way. Those Vespa side panel catches are a nice touch. Question, and forgive me if I missed it, what is your source for the LED's? I hate florescent lights too and want to replace the ones in my workshop.

 

[Denwood]

The lights look great. I just finished posting a review of the CREE T8 LED (91 CRI) vs my old favourite Phillips TL-950 (98CRI) in the lighting/electrical sub-forum. I'm a bit of a light geek..so great to see you standardized on LED. I really like that CREE is pushing higher CRI lighting as I figure shop use where paint/color work is being done justifies its use.

Did you match your under cab lights to overhead in terms of color temp? I might be a bit AR in that respect, but I"m trying to find higher CRI 5000K LED under cabinet lights..

I hear you on the shop/burn out issue. It's very weird to be spending time working on the shop, instead of in it

 

[Modern Jess]

Question, and forgive me if I missed it, what is your source for the LED's? I hate florescent lights too and want to replace the ones in my workshop.

Heh. Good to hear from you, Sticky!

I purchased these particular CR-LE lights from EarthLED.

 

[Modern Jess]

Did you match your under cab lights to overhead in terms of color temp? I might be a bit AR in that respect, but I"m trying to find higher CRI 5000K LED under cabinet lights..

I only have a couple of undercabs -- maybe three linear feet total. I used MaxLite LED light bars left over from my kitchen remodel, and they are 2700k. MaxLite makes 5000k units, but the CRI (as on mine) is in the low 80s. For such a small portion of the lighting, this doesn't bother me. If you were doing a large installation of undercabs, it might be an issue. Then again, I've got a whole bunch of these undercabs in my kitchen and the middling CRI doesn't bother me there.

All the recessed cans around the perimeter are Cree CR4 modules running at 2700k. I actually prefer the warmer end of the spectrum (strongly). The Cree CR-LE units are 3000k, and they are close enough to the recessed cans that there's no distracting difference. If you look at both of them you can see the subtle color difference, but it's too small to notice if you're not looking for it.

 

[Modern Jess]

Closet Ventilation

Here's a bit of an update I've been saving up for about the last month.

I have been planning -- from the start -- to put my compressor in an enclosed closet in the shop. The design, soundproofing, and ventilation of that closet has given me fits over the course of this build. I have changed direction on it more times than I can count, especially the ventilation part. To make matters worse, I wanted all the ductwork hidden.

The challenge is that soundproofing and ventilating a space is a pretty difficult task, as anyone who has built a home theater or recording studio can attest. You can't just cut some holes in the wall and slap a fan in it and hope that the noise won't increase too much -- it will. Anyplace that air can get through, so can sound. Well, almost. Sound transmission through vents can be greatly diminished by using long-ish runs of insulated flexible duct run in a crooked path.

So here's the design: there's a big-*** bathroom fan (390 CFM, just about the largest single-room in-ceiling bathroom fan you can get) located just above the spot where the compressor will be. That exhausts through insulated flex duct about four feet, turns a corner into the wall, goes up a wall stack duct and then turns again to go out a rectangular vent on the outside of the shop, up on the gable end. The exhausted air is replaced by fresh air drawn in from the interior of the shop (well, fresher than what's in the closet with the compressor) through a dedicated run of insulated duct. It's just like a cold air return, except that it runs from the shop to the closet. This setup gets me relative isolation from compressor noise and a second mechanism (besides the main shop fan) of circulating air through the shop. The air going from the shop through the compressor closet and then outside will be replaced by the skylight, the open door, or (as a last resort) the make-up air vent I installed early in the project.

Here are the requisite pics, before I drywalled over everything. Notice that the ductwork fits behind the rafter tie, which will be boxed in with drywall on the underside and plywood on the top.

 

[Modern Jess]

Ventilation Part II

That brings me to the next subject, which is actually kind of a diversion from the main shop project, but still workshop-related.

I've recently installed a Xytronix / ControlByWeb X-300 temperature controller and a couple of temperature monitor units. One is inside the shop, one is outside under an eave on a North-facing wall. Eventually, there will be a third one inside the compressor closet.

With the inside and outside units, though, I immediately started using the X-300's built-in logging functionality to get an idea of what kind of temperature swings I see in the shop vs. outside. Here's what I got:

The blue line is outside, the green line is inside. Considering there's no heat out there, this looks pretty good to me. It demonstrates that the insulation is mostly doing it's job. Even with a steep drop in temperature (yeah yeah, we're weather wimps out here in Cali) the shop temperature only dropped a bit.

But I think it can be better. If I had some way to turn on the ventilator fans when there's a favorable temperature difference (like near the top of the blue peak) I could get the shop a bit warmer. Obviously, I'd also have to turn off the fans when the blue line dips below the green line, or I'd lose that heat. Similarly, in summertime, if I could switch on the fans at night (we have very cool nights, even in summer) I could cool off the shop and keep it cool for some of the following day.

Well, it turns out that I do have a way to switch the fans on and off. The X-300 temperature controller, in addition to monitoring temperatures, is also scriptable (via pseudo-BASIC) such that I can write a bit of code that will turn a couple of on-board relays on and off whenever certain temperature conditions are met, such as being warmer outside than inside. The relays can't handle 120v AC current, but they can switch larger relays on and off:

And finally, I can automatically turn on the closet ventilation whenever the temperature in the compressor closet gets too hot. Just a bit of code. Did I mention that I'm a programmer by trade? Yeah.

 

[chrisBTSC]

Great build. Will be shoplifting some ideas for my spot.

 

[Denwood]

Jess, I'm tuned in to see how your ventilation/heat project goes. I am in the same boat in the summer here where I'm cooling 9400 sq/ft during the day, despite cool nights. I installed temperature controlled solar powered window openers in our clerestory (designed for passive cooling in the building) and run a monstrous exhaust fan (6000cfm) to pull cool air through the building to pre-cool for the work day. The system needs some more brains though as the autonomous windows (close and open at preset temps via a wireless sensor/remote control) don't communicate with the fan system. My garage never needs cooling in summer as we're close to Lake Superior. Oh, and it was -30C last night :-(

 

[JT-3]

Amazing garage! I'm curious, was the previous owner some sort of electrical engineer? It appears both of you have invested plenty of effort in having a nice workshop. But I think him beat.

 

[Modern Jess]

Amazing garage! I'm curious, was the previous owner some sort of electrical engineer? It appears both of you have invested plenty of effort in having a nice workshop. But I think him beat.

He was an engineer alright. I never met him, but I did a bit of research. He worked for Lockheed-Martin on (I think) various sensor and instrumentation projects. He had sensors and gauges -- unconventional ones -- installed in various locations in the house. He also had a bunch of antennas -- on the house, in the attic, on the shop -- all different varieties. Not sure if he was a ham or listening in on the military aircraft flying over the house on approach to Moffet Field. All of the antennas seemed to feed into the workshop (I ripped out a huge amount of coax) so that was apparently where he was listening from.

Sadly, he died a few years back. His wife, too. I'd like to think that I'm continuing his work out in the shop. After all, puttering around is important stuff.

 

[Modern Jess]

I installed temperature controlled solar powered window openers in our clerestory (designed for passive cooling in the building) and run a monstrous exhaust fan (6000cfm) to pull cool air through the building to pre-cool for the work day. The system needs some more brains though as the autonomous windows (close and open at preset temps via a wireless sensor/remote control) don't communicate with the fan system.

I love clerestory windows. Wish I could have added them to my project, but I didn't want to tear off the roof.

Could you link them with simple relays? Do you want the fan to come on when the windows open, or vice-versa?

 

[Modern Jess]

Great build. Will be shoplifting some ideas for my spot.

Thanks! Steal away.

 

[ishiboo]

I wouldn't use flex duct for any of that stuff except maybe a final connection.

That being said, I think this is my favorite build. It turned out AWESOME and things like the ceiling, soffits with recessed lights, wire mold, exposed existing beams, etc. just turned out fantastic.

My favorite part by far though is the small parts organizer.

I'll have to stop in and see this next time I am around. I lived/worked as a programmer and then manager in the south bay for a few years.

 

[Modern Jess]

I wouldn't use flex duct for any of that stuff except maybe a final connection.

Tell me more about that, I'm all ears.

That being said, I think this is my favorite build. It turned out AWESOME and things like the ceiling, soffits with recessed lights, wire mold, exposed existing beams, etc. just turned out fantastic.

Thanks very much!

My favorite part by far though is the small parts organizer.

I am partial to that. It has completely changed my ability to find the part / fastener I need. Instead of "Damn, I know I had some of those, I guess I'm going to the store" into "Here's just the thing I need". Granted, lots of small parts organizers could do the same thing, but somehow this one clicked and got me to really be organized.

I'll have to stop in and see this next time I am around. I lived/worked as a programmer and then manager in the south bay for a few years.

Our paths may have crossed, then. Give me a shout next time you might be around.

 

[Modern Jess]

Closet

Progress pictures, slightly out of date. All the drywall is up inside and outside the closet, which is the last corner of the shop. There's a bit of drywall still left to hang, but maybe only two half-sheets. So getting closer.

 

[Modern Jess]

Today, I spent some time rewiring the ventilation fans. I relocated the switches for the fans to the vertical portion of the wiremold conduit near the door. I also added an "automatic" switch for the fans, which powers the relays that will switch the fans on and off via the Xytronix temperature monitor.

Since I was on a roll, I also went ahead and wired up said relays, and enclosed them in a suitable enclosure. All the code is in place to actually switch the fans on and off at opportune times (based on temperature) so in a few days (fingers crossed) I should have some interesting charts showing the temperature bump I get in the shop from the mid-day warmth.

That moves this particular project officially into the "done" column.

 

[Modern Jess]

Oh, one last detail I wanted to show. The Xytronix controller is configured entirely through its own built-in web server, which includes the ability to customize the main index page for my own specific requirements. This is the control interface to my ventilation program running on the controller:

You can see from these numbers that it's currently cooler outside than inside, so no warming is taking place. Maybe later today it will warm up enough to see it in action. I need a 2 degree F temperature delta to trigger the fans, so it will have to get up to 62-ish outside.

 

[Modern Jess]

Success!

At exactly 12:42:25 PM on January 18th, 2015, the ventilation fan switched itself on under automatic control for the first time. It is now bringing warm outside air into the workshop.

I am stoked.

 

[OopsClunkThud]

Re: Success!

At exactly 12:42:25 PM on January 18th, 2015, the ventilation fan switched itself on under automatic control for the first time. It is now bringing warm outside air into the workshop.

I am stoked.

How to make friends and influence people?

 

[Getho]

Re: Success!

At exactly 12:42:25 PM on January 18th, 2015, the ventilation fan switched itself on under automatic control for the first time. It is now bringing warm outside air into the workshop.

I am stoked.

I know the feeling, where you program something that you know should work, then it actually works first time.

Out of interest, what kind of development do you do?

 

[Modern Jess]

Re: Success!

How to make friends and influence people?

Heh. Okay, you've got me there. Sorry, man.

 

[Modern Jess]

Re: Success!

Out of interest, what kind of development do you do?

Pushing papers. I was demoted to manager a few years back, so I don't get to do very much development anymore. Before that, though, I worked on operating systems, mostly at the lower device driver level. I am reasonably well versed with USB and Bluetooth communication, mostly using the HID protocol.

I've also been running an internet forum for the last nine or so years, so I've become pretty well versed in PHP, HTML, CSS, MySQL, and lots of general LAMP-type stuff in the process.