Tools from the old world

[scubadoober]

You might want to measure the open end of the Stahlwille again or check your calipers. It measures smaller than 10mm at 9.82mm. That can't be possible. Good follow up! Maybe my philosophy is wrong and by no means am I questioning your test, but I always thought open end wrenches were directional. Meaning the angled handle points toward the pull force. If that doesn't make since it just so happens to the opposite of how you held yours. Mute point since both were held the same way. In my mind you are pulling the joint, but when flipped you are compressing it. I am probably wrong and it makes no difference.

 

[mr.lemons]

They’re cheap compared to most name-brands – a tiny fraction of the price of Snap-on or Nepros, since you mention those brands – and they’re available in many useful patterns. They also have close tolerances for fit on the fastener. I’m surprised you haven’t mentioned that because it was noticeable to me without measuring for both the Open Box 13 and Stabil 20 patterns. At typical real-world torques, I believe fit matters more than strength. I practically never use an open-ended spanner at high torque.

I posted a while back regarding the tighter fit with Stahlwille compared to Hazet and do agree with you. Hazet fans said I was wrong though so I guess I cannot make anyone happy.

Admittedly the testing has gone off the rails a little and has become more about just finding the strongest spanner rather than the most well rounded.

You might want to measure the open end of the Stahlwille again or check your calipers. It measures smaller than 10mm at 9.82mm. That can't be possible. Good follow up! Maybe my philosophy is wrong and by no means am I questioning your test, but I always thought open end wrenches were directional. Meaning the angled handle points toward the pull force. If that doesn't make since it just so happens to the opposite of how you held yours. Mute point since both were held the same way. In my mind you are pulling the joint, but when flipped you are compressing it. I am probably wrong and it makes no difference.

I considered the directional use for the reason you mention and Googled it but couldn't find much info. I think you mostly use which ever way fits best to give you the space to swing the spanner but one way may be stronger than the other.

+ Well spotted thanks. I used the wrong image.

Thanks for doing the test. I think the Hazet had a bit more life in it, should have used a different pair of flats on the hex bit (or another hex bit) for each wrench.

True. The hex is pretty hard though and I made sure I tested the Stahlwille first.

P.S. Those Draper spanners were probably Taiwanese. They were not bad tools, and you’re not the only one to have used them professionally!

You may be right. They had raised panels like Craftsman.

The feedback is appreciated.

 

[dutchgray]

Seems that they are not so different, Hazet got nearly 20% higher peak torque but they do have more metal in their open ends so I would expect that to be the case. The Stahlwille are quite slim in the open ends which is nice for access. They were both spread but at a decently high torque level, in the real world most bolts are softer than the tool so the spanner would not deform anywhere near as much and the nut or bolt would round off.
I like the Stahlwille stuff I have, they are nice to use, fit fasteners well and a priced at a level that you can justify as a non professional user.
I do prefer Facom 440 combination spanners though.
Thanks for making the video.

 

[mr.lemons]

Lastly unless I find a cheap Snap on FD+

Stahlwille 13 torque test.

Not a very interesting result as I was not able to push this one to failure because the shorter length limited how much torque I could apply.

Max torque I was able to apply with a protected hand was 44.2Nm

Slightly more interesting is that from my figures the longer pattern of the 14 and 600N gives about an extra 15Nm in leverage compared to the 13.

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[superautobacs]

Not disagreeing entirely but for my use (infrequent but apparently quite hard) when judging a spanner's merit I 'do' prioritise breakaway strength and yield strength. Obviously they have to fit bolts well enough too.

I have never worn out a spanner so long term durability is not something I have worried about, just assume all decent spanners will last many years of hobby/home use. Before joining Garage journal I had a mixed set of Chinese Draper spanners for over 25 years. Used professionally for about five years as a car alarm/audio fitter and used relatively frequently for hobby use. After 25 years there was some chrome missing and a bit of rust but they still mostly functioned.

Is premature wear on spanners an issue when you use them daily? Which part wears? Teeth in the box end? If they wear out are we talking months, years, decades?

I can only relate to this balance of metal qualities to screwdrivers as that is where my experience is. I find that the best drivers manage to be the best fit, have the strongest breakaway strength, don't shatter and last longer. They don't seem to need to compromise one thing to excel in another.

For my use I would rather have a spanner I can really crank on without worrying about it that needs replacing every few years than a spanner I'm scared to use that lasts forever. So it could be that Stahlwille spanners may be designed for daily use rather than my use but I am not convinced that Stahlwille's softer spanners last any longer than Hazet, Snap on, Nepros etc stronger spanners anyway though I have no data or experience to confirm.

Got a bit ranty sorry. I'm interested to know how Stahlwille spanners get so much love here. I am guilty of believing the hype and then recommending them here after only using them a few times so wonder how many other people do the same.

BTW, I was not implying that the Factory Gear test was completely fake/rigged. It's just something to take into consideration.

Close fitment to fasteners is critical, and will largely influence a manual test, such as the one you've demonstrated (thank you for taking the videos and sacrificing your new wrenches! ) Manufacturers are supposed to broach/machine the open/boxed ends to the allowed min/max tolerances. I never looked into this, but just as an aside, there could be differences on what the min/max tolerances are between ISO/DIN, ANSI/ASTM, JIS standards. Just as a matter of fact, Ko-ken's Zeal series are produced under a much stricter/tighter/narrower tolerance range.

Premature wear on open-ends do happen for sure. User error is a big part of it: cranking down on the open-end without fully seating the wrench to the neck during operation or from applying force with the wrench not seated perpendicular to the fastener. Sometimes the latter can't be avoided due to space constraints.

The wear shows on the same spots as shown on your wrenches (wear the corners of the hex dig in to the jaws of the wrench). From long term use, the surface plating starts to wear, slowly exposing the nickle plating underneath it.

The boxed-end would take a lot longer to show surface wear and would be less prone to marring as the total contact surface is distributed against multiple points. But, premature wear can still occur due to similar reasons: operating without full seating or operating off-axis. ....oh, double-wrenching is also another great recipe for premature wear.

 

[Samuel D]

I considered the directional use for the reason you mention and Googled it but couldn't find much info. I think you mostly use which ever way fits best to give you the space to swing the spanner but one way may be stronger than the other.

Agreed. That’s why the open end is not aligned with the handle of the spanner but rotated 15°. It’s intended to be flipped, and so it’s intended to take torque in both directions.

It might be obvious, but if the jaws were aligned with the handle you’d need to swing the spanner 60° (because 360° / 6 sides of the fastener = 60°) to catch the next pair of flats. With the jaws rotated 15°, the spanner can do a 30° swing and then be flipped to do another 30° on the same pair of flats before repeating the process with the next pair of flats. So the 15° rotation halves the minimum necessary swing arc from 60° to 30°.

The ring end of a combination spanner, having 12 points, is broached at an even smaller rotation to the handle: 7.5°. So flipping the spanner gives a 15° different handle angle, for an even smaller minimum swing arc of 15°. However, the ring end is often offset by 10–15° in the other orientation, for knuckle clearance with fasteners on flat surfaces. So it’s not always possible to use this feature. But even in those cases, because there are 12 points rather than 6, the minimum swing arc is 30°, the same as when flipping the open end.

 

[mr.lemons]

Promo 2020 catalogue from Hazet with 'new' tools highlighted.

https://www.hazet.de/media/nxsProspekte/2020/SWW_2020_EN/index.html

 

[mr.lemons]

Possibly some new limited editions from PB Swiss.

World Import Tools Japan posted a teaser.

'Sneak peek.
This is all so good.
We will be able to inform you more at the end of June!
Look forward to it!'

Multitool from Dickies. For Japan I think.

Probably a bit **** but the design of the scissors look quite good. Normally have to choose between full size scissors or pliers but you get both with these. I haven't really looked at multitools for a while so may not be anything new.

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[Dave455]

Those PB Swiss Acetate handles look like you can't get enough of a good grip on them compared to the Vessel Acetate handles. They also don't have the blade being supported by an additional acetate support like the Vessel Acetate screwdriver handles. I can't see the Japanese picking that over their locally made Vessel screwdrivers in my opinion.

I find that you can grip them just fine. They’re one of the highest quality screwdrivers out there, but they are aimed at folks doing relatively clean work. If you’re going to work with really greasy hands, then there are probably better drivers than either the PB or the Vessel.

I don’t think those pictures are screwdrivers. I think they are some novelty item like barbecue forks, presumably included to show the colours.

If you do have a problem gripping these, you can always get the Multicraft handle, which is a different shape, different texture and a little larger.

The Vessel acetate handle drivers are good tools, but the PB Swiss are better. The blade steel is better, the tips are stronger (and better ground), the plating is tougher and the handles are CAB rather than cellulose acetate.

I’m sure they are considerably more expensive than the Vessel, but I suspect there are enough folks in Japan who are prepared to pay it!

 

[wout]

Had to use my brand new Hazet 916HP yesterday not because of it's high torque but because of it's fine teeth. Works fine, wouldn't have worked out with one of my normal 1/2 hazet ratchets to change the starter that I was working on.

Wout

 

[mr.lemons]

.

I don’t think those pictures are screwdrivers. I think they are some novelty item like barbecue forks, presumably included to show the colours.

That was my thought too. Could be the fondue forks.

 

[Dave455]

Multicraft seems like a Swissgrip with CAB and a textured surface.



Better is subjective but you can't just claim they're better. The only difference with the tips is that the Vessel doesn't have any tips with an oxide coating but they are magnetic. PB Swiss has the oxide coating but they aren't magnetic. Vessel says it's cellulose acetate resin but doesn't specify if it's CAB or cellulose acetate. I wouldn't claim the PB Swiss is better as you're comparing Swiss to Japanese steel. I'd like to know where from where you claim that the blade steel is better, tips are better, plating is tougher. That's quite the assumption to make since Vessel makes some of the best screwdrivers in a market full of competitors from Europe, Asia, America, and elsewhere. If you can provide reliable sources or links to a comparison of PB Swiss classic/multi-craft directly to the Vessel Crystaline series I'll look at it. Maybe I'll even ask to borrow classic/multicraft from a few people I know for direct comparison. I also covered the cost of the individual screwdriver here:

With regard to the Multicraft, essentially yes, although it’s actually the other way round as the multicraft predated the Swissgrip.

I believe the PB Swiss to be better, based on 25-30 years of using PB Swiss, some of it in an industrial environment, and probably even longer of using Vessel, which has been a common name in the U.K. since the early 70’s at least.

I say that the steel and tips are better on the PB than the Vessel because I have encountered several Vessel slotted drivers with distorted tips over the years. Not so the PB. I’m not saying the Vessel are failures, they are very decent tools for the price, but the steel on the PB holds up better.

I say the plating is better on the PB because I have encountered Vessel drivers with stripped plating, but again I have yet to do so on the PB Swiss, and I have some that have had very hard use.

Vessel say their handles are cellulose acetate. If it was CAB I’m sure they would say so, and it looks, feels, performs and smells like cellulose acetate to me.

I don’t have any problem with cellulose acetate handles whatsoever, and I’ve never seen a broken one (Scuffed maybe, broken no) but I can’t deny that the CAB is more impact resistant, so I’ll go with ‘better’.

 

[Dave455]

Promo 2020 catalogue from Hazet with 'new' tools highlighted.

https://www.hazet.de/media/nxsProspekte/2020/SWW_2020_EN/index.html

Those extendable ratchets look very interesting. Perhaps an ideal tool to keep in a road box or on a vehicle.

I was thinking about them before they introduced the HiPer version, but I’ve never actually seen one, or know anyone who owns one.

Has anybody got any feedback? In particular, how rigid are they when extended?

 

[mr.lemons]

FOGO ML-HG2 rechargeable glue gun.

Cheap glue gun from Aliexpress.

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[upgrading]

Nice vid.

 

[pizza]

cool, thanks for the vid

 

[frankieg]

Thanks for the vid

 

[_Ben_]

Those extendable ratchets look very interesting. Perhaps an ideal tool to keep in a road box or on a vehicle.

I was thinking about them before they introduced the HiPer version, but I’ve never actually seen one, or know anyone who owns one.

Has anybody got any feedback? In particular, how rigid are they when extended?

I have all of the 1000n ratchets, the extending one is super rigid throughout its range no noticeable flex when using it to change wheels. Solidly made but as you might expect, quite heavy at approx 1.4kg.

 

[mr.lemons]

All screwdrivers that I have used can be magnetized and demagnetized with a magnet.

 

[mr.lemons]

I have all of the 1000n ratchets, the extending one is super rigid throughout its range no noticeable flex when using it to change wheels. Solidly made but as you might expect, quite heavy at approx 1.4kg.

Wow, didn't notice how long the Hazet extends to. No wonder it's heavy. Assumed it would be the same length as the Facom extending ratchets.

Facom 437mm (830g), Hazet 614mm

 

[mr.lemons]

lol I give up.

 

[Steve_P]

lol I give up.

Good call. See the allen wrench thread. Same thing there.

 

[Dave455]

Both cellulose acetate and cellulose acetate butyrate are solvent resistant and impact resistant to an extent. Sorry but I can't take your word for PB Swiss being better. If you had issues with defective plating due to manufacturing defects that doesn't mean that Vessel has such issues with plating. Manufacturing defects can and will happen regardless of the price tag and the brand.

Also I'm not sure what experience or comparison you've given to Vessel vs PB Swiss but I think you should try that with brand new screwdrivers for a fair comparison. Older screwdrivers of either brand isn't a direct comparison due to many factors.

As for whether Vessel's handles are CAB or none manufacturers use certain keywords or marketing terms as well. Cellulose acetate resin may very well be CAB and that's their marketing terminology. Other manufacturers simply say cellulose acetate or acetate when it's non CAB.

Another advantage that Vessel has (besides the price of the individual screwdrivers) is magnetic tips even for lower models such as the Acetate versions. PB Swiss doesn't offer magnetic tips and even if they are magnetic it's almost not noticeable (just like how other manufacturers have oxide tips but are weakly magnetic).

Well, you keep using your Vessel’s, I’ll keep using my PB Swiss (among other makes) and everybody’s happy!

 

[Dave455]

I have all of the 1000n ratchets, the extending one is super rigid throughout its range no noticeable flex when using it to change wheels. Solidly made but as you might expect, quite heavy at approx 1.4kg.

Thanks Ben, that’s exactly what a I wanted to know!

Looks like I’m going to have to add one of those to my wish list!

 

[Dave455]

Wow, didn't notice how long the Hazet extends to. No wonder it's heavy. Assumed it would be the same length as the Facom extending ratchets.

Facom 437mm (830g), Hazet 614mm

Yes, it’s quite a serious tool!

It’s particularly of interest to me because I only keep a smallish toolbox in my vehicles now, but invariably need a breaker bar for removing wheels. Same thing with my road box, I end up carrying a breaker bar as well.

I reckon one of those would eat wheel bolts, with a 1/2 to 3/8 reducer I can ditch the 3/8 breaker bar as well, and it all fits in a shortish box!

I notice that Hazet also offer an extendable wheel brace, which might be a better tool to keep on a vehicle (for better read cheaper) but again, I don’t think I've ever seen one! It’s obviously a simpler sliding joint than the ratchets too, so probably not as solid.

 

[DEEBO]

I’ll keep using my Vessel's (among other many different makes)

And I’ll keep using PB Swiss and Vessel, love them both..


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[Jack84]

Some Belzer stuff I bought recently.
Notice the absence of COO on the ringratchets and speed wrenches.


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[jaceq]

Could please anyone explain what is the story behind Belzer do Brazil (APEX) and Belzer (BAHCO, SNA Europe)?

 

[mr.lemons]

'German tool reviews' covers Belzer's history in this vid. Kinda glosses over the Apex part but I assume Snap on sold Belzer to Apex at some point.

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[Reed Prince]

Facom wrench set finally arrived. Ordered it from the UK on May 18. Looks like it was stuck in customs for a couple of weeks. Unsurprisingly, no COO on the tools or the packaging. 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, 16, 17, 18 and 19.

 

[Qualitytools]

^ Very nice! Are they the set with the 6 point on one end and 12 point on the other or, both ends are 6 point?

 

[Reed Prince]

^ Very nice! Are they the set with the 6 point on one end and 12 point on the other or, both ends are 6 point?

6 points on both ends. EBay seller still has some if anyone's interested. $65.24 including shipping at today's rate of exchange. Facom Tools Sale OGV Drive Angled Socket Wrench Set 9 Piece 8mm - 19mm

 

[superautobacs]

Some Belzer stuff I bought recently.
Notice the absence of COO on the ringratchets and speed wrenches.


Sent from my iPhone using Garage Journal

Speed wrenches would be from Argentina and ratcheting wrenches from Taiwan. Sandvik Belzer period is a mix bag in terms of COO. IIRC, it's either Germany or Argentina.

Facom wrench set finally arrived. Ordered it from the UK on May 18. Looks like it was stuck in customs for a couple of weeks. Unsurprisingly, no COO on the tools or the packaging. 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, 16, 17, 18 and 19.

When I bought some in Paris 10 years ago I think I found only a few marked "France". I believe it was around that time that production was shifting from France to Taiwan.

 

[OneDollarSaab]

Facom wrench set finally arrived. Ordered it from the UK on May 18. Looks like it was stuck in customs for a couple of weeks. Unsurprisingly, no COO on the tools or the packaging. 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, 16, 17, 18 and 19.

I love these little guys. I need to pick up a couple tommy bars to get more leverage on mine.

Anybody have any recommendations? I was thinking a stepped bar from either Gedore or Facom.

 

[CanUK]

Needed a tool for pulling weeds, so thought I'd get the Wolf Garten one delivered from amazon.

Turned up this afternoon, went outside to try it out on a couple of small weeds in the lawn -second weed this happened:

View media item 104656
Genuinely very little force used there. Just for the record:

View media item 104655
Needless to say, avoid buying one of these unless you're maybe using it to poke around in sand or loose topsoil.

 

[frankieg]

Needed a tool for pulling weeds, so thought I'd get the Wolf Garten one delivered from amazon.

Turned up this afternoon, went outside to try it out on a couple of small weeds in the lawn -second weed this happened:

View media item 104656
Genuinely very little force used there. Just for the record:

View media item 104655
Needless to say, avoid buying one of these unless you're maybe using it to poke around in sand or loose topsoil.

Made in Germany... this one's very disappointing

 

[Jack84]

Speed wrenches would be from Argentina and ratcheting wrenches from Taiwan. Sandvik Belzer period is a mix bag in terms of COO. IIRC, it's either Germany or Argentina.















When I bought some in Paris 10 years ago I think I found only a few marked "France". I believe it was around that time that production was shifting from France to Taiwan.

Thanks.

Got another NOS Belzer socket set on the way.

 

[Reed Prince]

 

[mr.lemons]

Turned up this afternoon, went outside to try it out on a couple of small weeds in the lawn -second weed this happened:

No way, must have been abuse or user error.

Some new bits and bobs.

Halfords flex ratchet spanners, 150mm PB Swiss torx bits and an 8mm Proxxon hex bit (to be used properly on hex bolts this time ).

Bought this Halfords set to leave at work. I have a set for home use and did not really know what to think of them as I have not used other brands enough to make a fair comparison until recently. The Halfords spanners have always just worked but I wasn't sure if they are different to cheaper offerings. Having spent the last week using Silverline ratchet spanners I can now confirm that Halfords spanners are good, or at least better than cheaper spanners. Silverline ratchet spanners have a rougher mechanism that binds up when you crank on them. Sorry, I know this is only relevant to UK members.

They come with knobbly open ends now.

 

[garfieldzzz]

Not sure if a addiction to PB Swiss dead blows but i really like em.

Added the 50mm to go with the 40 and 32mm combi, accompanied by a aluminium 32mm and a Halder Supercraft 32mm plus the little 22mm.

The aluminium hammer can be swapped with copper inserts or one each.