Generator Selection and Install

[mike93lx]

do not understand the adapter plug or cord @mike93lx mentions. If it means using a 240V inlet box with a cord from a 120V generator where the cord is jumped to apply voltage to both legs:

• This will indeed provide power to both bus bars.
• Then you can power any 120V circuit in the panel.
• The 240V circuits need to stay off as they will only get 120V and I doubt they will be happy.
• I am not sure this is kosher, but I am not a sparky

Yes, exactly that.

The 240 appliances won't care, they just won't work. In a MWBC, you could overload the neutral, though.

If doing this, I would turn off all two-pole breakers

 

[larry4406]

Yes, exactly that.

The 240 appliances won't care, they just won't work. In a MWBC, you could overload the neutral, though.

If doing this, I would turn off all two-pole breakers

So if there are 120V critical circuits that happen to be on a MWBC with a handle tied 2-pole breaker, the jumped cord method creates a potential hazard.

 

[Rick_Br]

Dave - I keep pulling myself back from a plan that solves the most extreme outage that will ever occur to a place that resolves minimal survival needs in the most likely scenario. So I guess I would put myself in the I want piece of mind cam but for events that can be reasonably expected. You are right - I need to just decide and move on. I have pretty much decided on the Honda. Its a better unit that requires no initial maintenance (battery, oil, oil filter, fuel filter, etc). It comes with the generator to outlet cable and the outlet itself. Not sure at this point if it is a 120 or 240 connection. The cable and outlet will determine which generator outlet will be used to feed the panel. And finally - its a trade so no cash out of my pocket - granted half of the cost represent a machine I bought with the intention of resale and the other half is my time for fixing up another machine. Am i going to miss a warranty - maybe but not likely. NG will be a decision after I get some experience with the generator. I would say its realistic to expect I won't ever use it.

Now that selection is pretty much determined, the next step will be the interlock - I'm going to check out the one linked in this thread. This thread will be moving on to interlock installation.

Rick

 

[mike93lx]

So if there are 120V critical circuits that happen to be on a MWBC with a handle tied 2-pole breaker, the jumped cord method creates a potential hazard.

Yes, in the sense that the neutral could get overloaded, although it's quite unlikely, I'd say

 

[theoldwizard1]

I don't have any 220 circuits I need to power in an outage but is a 240 generator outlet of any advantage for the panel interlock install?

Absolutely NOT !

Have the electrician install the generator inlet and generator interlock as normal.

When using a 120V only generator have an electrician have the following change in the female end of the cord that connect the generator to the inlet.

With a little "trickery" (connect L1 to L2 in the cord), every 120V circuit can be used, as long as you don't exceed the capacity of the generator.

This perfectly safe ! If you did have any 240V loads, they would not work !

 

[country83]

How about Generlink?

GENERLINK | GENERLINK Transfer Switch

GenerLink transfer switches work with portable generators from manufactures like FIRMAN, DuroMax, Generac, Champion, and many more. View our Compatibility Guide [link to guide] for a list of compatible generators.

globalpowerproducts.com

Depending on the electric company they may not allow those. I inquired about one when I got my Predator a couple years back and our power company won't allow one. I ended up getting a transfer switch and inlet installed for not much more money.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Now that selection is pretty much determined, (Honda)

That will blow your budget !

 

[Rick_Br]

That will blow your budget !

How do you figure that?

 

[dave*99]

Depending on the electric company they may not allow those. I inquired about one when I got my Predator a couple years back and our power company won't allow one. I ended up getting a transfer switch and inlet installed for not much more money.

Quite true. Some POCOs allow them , some disallow them, some install them, some rent them, some finance them.
YMMV

 

[Rick_Br]

Not that the generator selection is done I started looking at the interlock kits - specifically those linked up thread. https://www.geninterlock.com/produc...ler-hammer-150-and-200-amp-ch-panel-pre-2019/

I have verified that the the 1-1/2" spacing is correct on my panel. I currently have a 50 amp breaker in the top left slot of my panel that is unused - was for an electric range no longer in use. I can remove that and use that slot. in the link above there is a top left interlock and top right interlock priced widely different. The top right is UL listed and appears to be more robust but is priced twice as much as the top left which is MET listed and appears to have a plastic versus metal plate. I want to use the top left but wonder about other differences I am not seeing.

Rick

 

[thammel]

I first had a portable genset. Moved and bought the same brand (winco) but a permanently mounted automatic standby unit. Love it. I don't need to do anything when power goes out. The automatic feature is great!

 

[theoldwizard1]

Not that the generator selection is done I started looking at the interlock kits - specifically those linked up thread. https://www.geninterlock.com/produc...ler-hammer-150-and-200-amp-ch-panel-pre-2019/

Find the make and model of you breaker panel. Go to manufactures web site or call them and ask if they have an interlock kit for your model panel.

 

[dave*99]

I first had a portable genset. Moved and bought the same brand (winco) but a permanently mounted automatic standby unit. Love it. I don't need to do anything when power goes out. The automatic feature is great!

How often do you have an outage?

 

[Rick_Br]

Find the make and model of you breaker panel. Go to manufactures web site or call them and ask if they have an interlock kit for your model panel.

Thought I already did that - cutler hammer (Eaton) CH pre 2019 with 1-1/2" from bottom of main breaker to top of first breaker - see the link.

My question is why the big price difference between a top left versus top right kit. I will be getting the top left kit - not die to pricing but because that is where I have an empty space. Is there a reason to use a top right - more expensive - kit?
Rick

 

[ripperd]

Thought I already did that - cutler hammer (Eaton) CH pre 2019 with 1-1/2" from bottom of main breaker to top of first breaker - see the link.

My question is why the big price difference between a top left versus top right kit. I will be getting the top left kit - not die to pricing but because that is where I have an empty space. Is there a reason to use a top right - more expensive - kit?
Rick

You said one was properly rated?

One is probably an Amazon China knockoff. One is probably a factory made oem part.

I personally spent the little extra to get the true oem manufacturer part with the right approvals. I want to make sure the next time an inspector sees my panel its all good.

 

[dave*99]

Thought I already did that - cutler hammer (Eaton) CH pre 2019 with 1-1/2" from bottom of main breaker to top of first breaker - see the link.

My question is why the big price difference between a top left versus top right kit. I will be getting the top left kit - not die to pricing but because that is where I have an empty space. Is there a reason to use a top right - more expensive - kit?
Rick

Both are listed by a NRTL. I can’t see how you could go wrong with either.

 

[Rick_Br]

Both are listed by a NRTL. I can’t see how you could go wrong with either.

I agree- going to order up top left version

 

[scooterbum46]

About a year ago, I installed an Emporia Vue3 energy monitoring system. For 200 bucks and a day or so of planning and installation, I've got current real time second by second (also minute, hour, day, month, year) power draw on 98% of the circuits in my home, expressed in amperage, wattage, $ per kwh, or voltage. While I had already bought a generator (Westinghouse 9500Dfc) to replace a 35 year old Generac 5KW, I can now run on the generator with pretty good information of what loads, if any, that I'll need to shed while on the generator. I disn't want to sidetrack the thread, but the Emporia, or similar systems is well worth the effort if you're planning an expen$ive generator instillation ( I plan burying about 120 feet of expen$ive copper from the genset location to my house). The Westinghouse is a stopgap solution prior to a more extensive solution..

Another comment - about the drawback of the less expensive non-invertor generators running at fixed speed thusly burning more fuel: just as your car ***** more gas when towing a trailer (e.g. up hill, in a headwind at 100 MPH), a generator engine's power output demands are based on the electrical load, not on RPM. I saw an extreme example of that a few years ago when during an extended (week long) outage a state level data center ran out of diesel because someone's fuel calculations were based on low load monthly gen testing, not real load (LOL, yep it happened). If your generator's a gas hog and in good condition, take a look at the loads you're putting on it.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Thought I already did that - cutler hammer (Eaton) CH pre 2019 with 1-1/2" from bottom of main breaker to top of first breaker.

The link goes to the manufacturers web page for generator interlocks.

Look up the model of your load center (a.k.a. breaker panel) and choose the appropriate Interlock catalog number. Google that.

The genuine Eaton/CH model is for the right hand side only. Your source for that model (BRMIKCSR) is about $40 more than Lowes, Home Depot or Amazon.

Personally, I would buy the Eaton one. Has the other (left hand side) been UL tested and approved ? If not, you could fail an inspection when you go to sell your house.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Another comment - about the drawback of the less expensive non-invertor generators running at fixed speed thusly burning more fuel: just as your car ***** more gas when towing a trailer (e.g. up hill, in a headwind at 100 MPH), a generator engine's power output demands are based on the electrical load, not on RPM.

Mostly true !

If an inverter generator can make the power necessary at a lower RPM, it will use less fuel. For power demands near the maximum, there would likely be little difference between inverter and non-inverter generators.

 

[dave*99]

Personally, I would buy the Eaton one. Has the other (left hand side) been UL tested and approved ? If not, you could fail an inspection when you go to sell your house.

Listed by MET. Which is an NRTL just as UL is.

 

[scooterbum46]

Mostly true !

If an inverter generator can make the power necessary at a lower RPM, it will use less fuel. For power demands near the maximum, there would likely be little difference between inverter and non-inverter generators.

Which does indicate that, as others have said, you should size the generator to your anticipated load, especially if you are concerned about fuel economy. My area has mostly short, less than a day usually, outages - maybe two or three total a year, with the last one being 17 minutes (I think a breaker opened someplace and shed the part of the local grid that was busted). I'm probably not the best candidate for a 3-5 K inverter type, the ROI would most likely be in decades..

 

[Dakotadadv8]

Dave - I keep pulling myself back from a plan that solves the most extreme outage that will ever occur to a place that resolves minimal survival needs in the most likely scenario. So I guess I would put myself in the I want piece of mind cam but for events that can be reasonably expected. You are right - I need to just decide and move on. I have pretty much decided on the Honda. Its a better unit that requires no initial maintenance (battery, oil, oil filter, fuel filter, etc). It comes with the generator to outlet cable and the outlet itself. Not sure at this point if it is a 120 or 240 connection. The cable and outlet will determine which generator outlet will be used to feed the panel. And finally - its a trade so no cash out of my pocket - granted half of the cost represent a machine I bought with the intention of resale and the other half is my time for fixing up another machine. Am i going to miss a warranty - maybe but not likely. NG will be a decision after I get some experience with the generator. I would say its realistic to expect I won't ever use it.

Now that selection is pretty much determined, the next step will be the interlock - I'm going to check out the one linked in this thread. This thread will be moving on to interlock installation.

Rick

I thought I would never use it as well nice power to run tools if power or battery not available for your equipment. I run it once a month for 30 minutes with a load. Generators on RV need similar care and maintenance keeps you busy.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Has the other (left hand side) been UL tested and approved ? If not, you could fail an inspection when you go to sell your house.

UL testing is not required by code. And UL DOESNT approve anything, they list. So how could you fail an inspection?

Product has to be listed by an NRTL. UL is an NRTL.

 

[thammel]

How often do you have an outage?

Well, not all that often thankfully. Wife wanted it. I love projects. Maybe we have a couple outages every year for a short while each time. But I know we've had outages that last a day or so. That would be a concern without a genset.

 

[dscheidt]

Which does indicate that, as others have said, you should size the generator to your anticipated load,

Portable generators are used with widely varying loads, many of which are intermittent. You have to size the generator to match the peak load, even if the load is less than that most of the time. So in the real world, the efficiency matters. So does the reduced noise. I agree the fuel savings don’t pay for itself, but factor in longer run time from one tank, noise and power quality, it’s a lot more interesting question, and it depends on how you weigh the pros versus the cost differential.

 

[Rick_Br]

The link goes to the manufacturers web page for generator interlocks.

Look up the model of your load center (a.k.a. breaker panel) and choose the appropriate Interlock catalog number. Google that.

The genuine Eaton/CH model is for the right hand side only. Your source for that model (BRMIKCSR) is about $40 more than Lowes, Home Depot or Amazon.

Personally, I would buy the Eaton one. Has the other (left hand side) been UL tested and approved ? If not, you could fail an inspection when you go to sell your house.

Sorry but your link is for a BR panel - as mentioned a number of times in this thread mine is a CH panel. As Dave pointed out the kits I linked are both certified/listed. I prefer the top left install just because it will be a bit easier. So unless you have a reason other than personal preference I am going with the Geninterlock.com linked above

 

[mike93lx]

About a year ago, I installed an Emporia Vue3 energy monitoring system. For 200 bucks and a day or so of planning and installation, I've got current real time second by second (also minute, hour, day, month, year) power draw on 98% of the circuits in my home, expressed in amperage, wattage, $ per kwh, or voltage. While I had already bought a generator (Westinghouse 9500Dfc) to replace a 35 year old Generac 5KW, I can now run on the generator with pretty good information of what loads, if any, that I'll need to shed while on the generator. I disn't want to sidetrack the thread, but the Emporia, or similar systems is well worth the effort if you're planning an expen$ive generator instillation ( I plan burying about 120 feet of expen$ive copper from the genset location to my house). The Westinghouse is a stopgap solution prior to a more extensive solution..

Another comment - about the drawback of the less expensive non-invertor generators running at fixed speed thusly burning more fuel: just as your car ***** more gas when towing a trailer (e.g. up hill, in a headwind at 100 MPH), a generator engine's power output demands are based on the electrical load, not on RPM. I saw an extreme example of that a few years ago when during an extended (week long) outage a state level data center ran out of diesel because someone's fuel calculations were based on low load monthly gen testing, not real load (LOL, yep it happened). If your generator's a gas hog and in good condition, take a look at the loads you're putting on it.

With the caveat that the Emporia will not tell you starting loads of motors, so it can only confirm running amperage

 

[mike93lx]

So how could you fail an inspection?

By making up scenarios based on subjects you don't understand

 

[mm08822]

By making up scenarios based on subjects you don't understand

How dare you demean the power of a home inspector......shame on you

 

[Rick_Br]

OK - so the generator is a Honda EM5000SX. The unit has a number of outlets. I haven't seen the power cord yet but I did get the inlet receptacle today. It is a Reliance 120/240 inlet. The generator has a 120/240 outlet with a voltage selector switch. I'm not sure what the circuit breaker is that comes with the interlock - although it is a 30 amp. Not sure if it is 2 pole or not - I would bet it is.

Here is what I think I know - the generator output (either 120 or 240) is fed to the panel via the inlet receptacle. With the main breaker OFF and the generator breaker ON the generator output is distributed through the panel.

There was some discussion above about only using one side of the panel if the input was 120. I would like to use the entire panel (not all at once). I have two existing 240 volt breakers (AC outside unit and shop sub panel) that would be manually turned off. With 240 input from the generator and a 2 pole breaker would all of the 120 volt circits be active with having to move anything?

Rick

 

[larry4406]

OK - so the generator is a Honda EM5000SX. The unit has a number of outlets. I haven't seen the power cord yet but I did get the inlet receptacle today. It is a Reliance 120/240 inlet. The generator has a 120/240 outlet with a voltage selector switch. I'm not sure what the circuit breaker is that comes with the interlock - although it is a 30 amp. Not sure if it is 2 pole or not - I would bet it is.

Here is what I think I know - the generator output (either 120 or 240) is fed to the panel via the inlet receptacle. With the main breaker OFF and the generator breaker ON the generator output is distributed through the panel.

There was some discussion above about only using one side of the panel if the input was 120. I would like to use the entire panel (not all at once). I have two existing 240 volt breakers (AC outside unit and shop sub panel) that would be manually turned off. With 240 input from the generator and a 2 pole breaker would all of the 120 volt circits be active with having to move anything?

Rick

Yes. 240V generator feeding a 240V backfeed breaker will be able to power every 120V circuit.

This does not mean your generator has the capability to do so.

You still need to be the one doing load management.

 

[Rick_Br]

Thanks Larry - I do understand that I need to be in charge oc circuit management. I just wanted to be sure I wouldn't need to move circuits or install jumpers.

 

[mike93lx]

Thanks Larry - I do understand that I need to be in charge oc circuit management. I just wanted to be sure I wouldn't need to move circuits or install jumpers.

None of that is needed. Just need a two pole slot in the right place for the inlet.

 

[larry4406]

Thanks Larry - I do understand that I need to be in charge oc circuit management. I just wanted to be sure I wouldn't need to move circuits or install jumpers.

None of that is needed. Just need a two pole slot in the right place for the inlet.

This is why I feel the 240V feed method is superior.

 

[dave*99]

Thanks Larry - I do understand that I need to be in charge oc circuit management. I just wanted to be sure I wouldn't need to move circuits or install jumpers.

You should not have to move circuits…..
Hopefully the 120V stuff you want to power is reasonably split across the 2 poles in your panel.
5000W @240V is 20.8 Amps on each of the 2 legs in the panel. You can use all 41 amps @120V provided you don’t exceed 20.8 on 1 leg.
Don’t worry about a problem until you have one. Who knows maybe you learn to plug the coffee pot into a different receptacle to balance the load. Only if you discover an issue.

 

[Rick_Br]

I've got an available 2 pole slot at the top left of the panel. The interlock i bought is a top left design.

Rick

 

[mike93lx]

This is why I feel the 240V feed method is superior.

Absolutely, no argument at all

 

[Rick_Br]

Still don't have the interlock kit but I wanted to do some prep. Today I pulled out the wire and breaker for the unused 50 amp breaker. Wire was #8 - I was thinking of using it but will probably not as it is more than I need and I would have to dig into a wall to get it out. I will probably just cut it off and put a tag on it indicating unused electric range.

So this is the empty spot for the interlock breaker on the top left



I have two open knockouts in the panel - I was thinking of using the top right knock out with some flexible conduit although I'm not sure it is flexible enough. This is a picture of a piece of conduit that I had as an example (top right of panel)



My current thoughts are to use an existing hole that coax is in and just open it up for conduit. We no longer are using the coax. In this picture you can see where the conduit enters - the panel is just out frame on the left.



And finally this is a picture of the other side of that wall where the coax enters



There is the coax box and an old telephone box that I would remove. There is currently an open knock out on the right side of the generator inlet box that I would use for a conduit connection.

Big picture is that an reasonable plan? I would be using THHN 10 gauge in the conduit. Any suggestions for conduit - my concern is that there will be a number of tight turns and it seems flexible isn't all that flexible?

More later on specific wiring.

Rick

 

[dave*99]

I would be using THHN 10 gauge in the conduit. Any suggestions for conduit - my concern is that there will be a number of tight turns and it seems flexible isn't all that flexible?

How long is the conduit run? You can put the wires in the flexible conduit first and snake it into position second.