rust removal

[d42jeep]

I’m still a big fan of Evaporust. I use a bench grinder with Nyalox wheels for polishing vise handles and similar pieces.
As opposed to wire wheeling, I like the way Evaporust leaves all of the details such as cast in lettering on the sides of vises sharp and distinct. Sometimes I highlight the lettering with contrasting paint.

Does buying Evaporust in 5 gallon buckets make me “serious” ?

I recognize that guy! These arrived a few minutes ago after I took advantage of a sale on Amazon posted on the GJ.
-Don

 

[macgee]

I use a bench grinder with Nyalox wheels for polishing vise handles and similar pieces.
As opposed to wire wheeling, I like the way Evaporust leaves all of the details such as cast in lettering on the sides of vises sharp and distinct. Sometimes I highlight the lettering with contrasting paint.

Does buying Evaporust in 5 gallon buckets make me “serious” ?

Shiftless,

You really should try a 6" 3M Scotch-Brite Radial Bush wheel in 220 grit (#33213). I threw out all my Nyalox wheels after using these, they're more pricey but no contest and easily worth it, much finer finish, not as harsh but very effictive and much less marking/scarring that the Nyalox do. I love using them everyday, I also use the 400 grit (blue).



220 on the left, 400 on good chrome on the right:



After Evaporsut and Radial Brush wheel.



And yes, 5 gallons makes you serious. The other day my neighbor saw two gallons being delivered like Jeeps and was wondering what the hell I'm doing in my shop.

I recognize that guy! These arrived a few minutes ago after I took advantage of a sale on Amazon posted on the GJ.
-Don

Nice Don!

 

[Shiftless]

Shiftless,

You really should try 6" 3M Scothcbrite Radial Bush wheel in 220 grit (#33213). I threw out my Nyalox wheels after using these, they're more pricey but easily worth it, much finer finish, not as harsh but very effictive and much less marking that the Nyalox do. I love using them everyday, I also use the 400 grit

And yes, 5 gallons makes you serious. The other day my neighbor saw two gallons being delivered like Jeeps and was wondering what the hell I'm doing in my shop.



Nice Don!

Too bad I didn’t know about that. My 3 Nyalox brushes were over $50
Is the “marking” you speak of a black film that develops on the workpiece?
That film is quite hard to remove.

Does that 3M wheel have a 1/2 inch or 5/8 inch center hole?

 

[macgee]

Too bad I didn’t know about that. My 3 Nyalox brushes were over $50
Is the “marking” you speak of a black film that develops on the workpiece?
That film is quite hard to remove.

Marking is the scratch lines (satin pattern) that's left on the metal item. I found Nyalox leaves quite a bit of an aggressive hair pattern on item for the listed grit on wheel. Sometimes it leaves a nice satin pattern but its pretty heavy compared to the radial brush wheels. Pics of items that were rusted, applied Evaporust to them and then just radial wheel afterwards.

The black film is most likely a coat of grime and grease residue on your wheel; its annoying when it happens and it reduces the effect of the wheel. Remove wheel and clean it with "Goof-Off Gunk Remover Gel". I use the top of a 5 gallon paint buck cover as a cleaning tray for these, they have a nice recess that the wheels fit in, it also works great for cleaning 10" table saw blades.

 

[Shiftless]

macgee:
Thanks again for the tips. Those machinist tools look like new, maybe BETTER than new.

I just ordered one of those 3M #33213 brush wheels.
I’m anxious to give it a whirl. (Pun intended)


.

 

[macgee]

macgee:
Thanks again for the tips. Those machinist tools look like new, maybe BETTER than new.

I just ordered one of those 3M #33213 brush wheels.
I’m anxious to give it a whirl. (Pun intended)


.

Awesome, Please report back how it works out and how it compares to the Nyalox? Just give it some little time to wear/break in, they give off a lower grit finish (approx. 150-ish) until they break in.

Here's a couple of examples that were finished with 3M Radial Brush wheel (220 & 400). Arbors were switched around or replaced. The the ones in photo's measured well enough for runout (holding .005" or below, measured below jaws) after restore.

 

[toolmiser]

Is there a cheaper source of the 2m radial brushes than Amazon?

 

[macgee]

I usually buy on eBay.

For the lowest price I've seen in a long time has been $34. Typically a good price for new, delivered is about $45

But check these out and don't wait too long, those will go fast.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/3M-Scotch-...933030&hash=item5b85ea42ea:g:waMAAOSwsKdf-Qza

Typically you'll see them sold for around $48-$55

 

[Davefr]

I usually buy on eBay.

Right there's four for sale at the lowest price I've seen in a long time for $34. Typically a good price for new, delivered is about $45

But check these out and don't wait too long, those will go fast.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/3M-Scotch-Brite-6-X-7-16-220-Grit-Red-Brush-8-Ply-with-Bushings-33213/393088746218?epid=1600933030&hash=item5b85ea42ea:g:waMAAOSwsKdf-Qza

Typically you'll see them sold for around $48-$55

Macgee,
How long do those usually last. Can you use them all the way down close to the core? They look safer then wire.

Tnx

 

[macgee]

Davefr,

They last a good while similar to a wire wheel but they do create some dust when going over sharp corners and certain aggressive threads. I use mine everyday and will last over a year + but it does size down with wear but its used a lot, more than any machine in the shop.

WAAAAAAaaaaaY safer than a wire wheel, I could eat a PBJ in one hand and have a conversation with someone while using it at the same time and not get my hand taken off. You can really press into and do things with it that you would never dare do with a wire wheel. It's a pleasure to use. Plus, you don't a free facial acupuncture session like you can when using a wire wheel.

Its been a game changer, along with a Ultrasonic cleaner with heated Evaporust.

 

[Shiftless]

I’ll give a big to what macgee said.

I’ve been using similar wheels, the Nyalox.
They never throw bits of the wheel back at you like wire wheels do.
They are softer than wire so if you accidentally touch them, they won’t skim off 5 layers of skin like the wire wheels.

I’m not yet going to throw out my knotted wire cup wheel that I use with an angle grinder. Is there a comparable tool that is not steel wire? I use that for cleaning bricks and removing flaking paint and ivy vines from stucco walls.

 

[Davefr]

Davefr,

They last a good while similar to a wire wheel but they do create some dust when going over sharp corners and certain aggressive threads. I use mine everyday and will last over a year + but it does size down with wear but its used a lot, more than any machine in the shop.

WAY safer than a wire wheel, I could eat a PBJ in one hand and have a conversation with someone while using it at the same time and not get my hand taken off. You can really press into and do things with it that you would never dare to with a wire wheel. It's a pleasure to use.

Its been a game changer, along with a Ultrasonic cleaner with Evaporust.

Thanks guys, I just ordered one and will try it out. I hate using wire wheels.

 

[macgee]

Shiftless is correct,

I forgot to say unfortunately there's no more sheer enjoyment of picking wire needles out of your forehead, chest and cheeks so that's one less pleasure in the shop but I still have a wire wheel set up for when I miss that experience.

One caveat, I do use my radial brush wheel on a slow machine (1750 rpm) so you may get a different feel and possible finish shown in pics with a full speed machine. Slower rpm's making it more forgiving and softer, less force throwing into item but takes longer. Softer metal will leave a more satin finish, hardened metal will finish to almost a polish look using the same grit.

Remember to allow break in time to soften up, first use will act more like a Nyalox and then soften up when the tips of the ceramic hairs tips shaped up and flex in proper position. Two days ago I bought years worth of replacements otherwise, I would buy another wheel at that price, I seriously doubt they'll last long at that price. Now if I can only find 400 grit and 6 micron for that price.

Please report back your experience with them, and feel free to give me **** if they don't work out well.

 

[Shiftless]

Thanks for the additional info, macgee.

I spin my two 6 inch Nyalox wheels at 3450 rpm using a vintage Blue Point labeled Doerr?? bench grinder.

I’m not sure it’s a Doerr. If anybody knows for sure one way or another, please let me know.

 

[Adriangtr]

You can get fairly inexpensive sand blaster cabinets now.
If you have a decent compressor id say go that route.
I initially purchased mine for rust removal but since then have found so many uses, paint removal, restoring wood rust removal list goes on. I thought I'd regret getting and use it a couple of times but its constantly seeing use. There's some good videos on modifying the Harbour freight style ones on YT also.

 

[macgee]

Hey Shiftless,

Have you tried the radial brush wheel yet? Thats a really nice Blue Point grinder; I hope the combo works out for you.?

I noticed all 7 wheels have already sold on the ebay listing.

 

[docbach17]

I've used electrolysis a lot. The results can be amazing. I bought a 120VAC to 12VAC transformer for about $10, then got a bridge rectifier for $4 to change the AC to DC. Wired in a fuse and got some old battery clamps.

Here are some rear brake cylinders that had sat in the mud under a 1953 Chevy for 30 years. The left one is untreated, and on the right is the one that got dunked for a day and a half.

Here is a parking brake cable end w/ bracket. Same thing--sat in the mud under the '53 Chevy for 30 years.

Before:

After:

hard to beat results like that

 

[csp]

Compound rest swivel from a 1970s Craftsman hobby lathe I pulled out of a hoard recently. Before, during and after photos.

It first had a trip in the ultrasonic cleaner with diluted Simple Green and Dawn, which actually removed quite a bit of the rust. The rest went away in a 30 minute bath of Evaporust heated to about 150 F. I did hit it lightly by hand with a brass bristle brush to get rid of the black stuff.

 

[Cruzan80]

Trying to find where someone got a few plastic trays, one with holes, and a lid for soaking and sealing Evaporust. Anyone remember what I am talking about?

Edit: Found it. Searched Food safe or food grade by post. https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=8754020

Sent from my IN2015 using The Garage Journal mobile app

 

[1982fxr]

Thanks for the additional info, macgee.

I spin my two 6 inch Nyalox wheels at 3450 rpm using a vintage Blue Point labeled Doerr?? bench grinder.

I’m not sure it’s a Doerr. If anybody knows for sure one way or another, please let me know.

Doerr did make grinders for Blue Point but the base on yours is throwing me for a loop. And the body too, kind of.

I'm not sure that's a Doerr.

 

[macgee]

Nice job csp, Looks great

Looks like the rust didn't get its teeth into the metal and pit it; that caked on grease gunk that came off in the U-cleaner protected it. The compound looks in great shape and you can still see all the original milling marks on it.

 

[Shiftless]

Hey Shiftless,

Have you tried the radial brush wheel yet? Thats a really nice Blue Point grinder; I hope the combo works out for you.?

I noticed all 7 wheels have already sold on the ebay listing.

Thanks for asking.
As it now stands, I can’t mount the new wheel. The radial brush mounting hub is half an inch thick, much thicker than the Nyalox ones. There is not enough threaded length in the shaft to get a backing nut, the wheel and the locking nut on. Yes, I am using thinner nuts. Here are the pics to show you what I’m up against. Any suggestion other than buying a new motor?

 

[macgee]

Shift,

Try removing the partial cast iron cover, its three screws and comes off easily. The radial works way better with it off and gives more angle and space to work with.


When taken off, I'm curious to see if that larger dia part of the spindle is a spacer? Also, can you please take a pic with the radial wheel on the spindle to see better what's going on.

I've had these radial wheels on several different grinders (Baldor, vintage Stanley, Walker Turner, Rockwell, Craftsman Pre-Block...etc) with no issues.

PS> Just in case; these wheel are directional

EDIT: Your Blue Point looks like it should have plenty of length to fit the Radial wheel, looking at this pic:

 

[Shiftless]

macgee:
Thanks for the additional tips. You’re right of course...these wheels don’t need any guards. After removing the inner guard that I was (unnecessarily) using with the Nyalox wheels, and fitting the big washer spacers that are used with grinding wheels, it all came together as shown in these pics.

For a test run, I grabbed an old Thorsen socket, cleaned off any oily film that you taught me leads to black streaks, snapped it onto an extension to get a safe grip and spent exactly 30 seconds wheeling half of it for a demonstration.

I am VERY impressed.

I took a picture alongside a new Snap On chrome wrench to compare metal luster.
You can certainly see a big difference on the old socket where I wheeled it and where I didn’t.
It might just be me but I think the luster left by that ceramic wheel is nicer looking than the bright chrome on the wrench.

to macgee!

 

[macgee]

Awesome Shiftless,

Glad it worked out, the wheel and grinder look good as a combo. Remember there is some break-in before getting a slightly finer finish.

Maybe install the Nyalox on the other side to compare finishes?

 

[d42jeep]

macgee:
Thanks for the additional tips. You’re right of course...these wheels don’t need any guards. After removing the inner guard that I was (unnecessarily) using with the Nyalox wheels, and fitting the big washer spacers that are used with grinding wheels, it all came together as shown in these pics.

For a test run, I grabbed an old Thorsen socket, cleaned off any oily film that you taught me leads to black streaks, snapped it onto an extension to get a safe grip and spent exactly 30 seconds wheeling half of it for a demonstration.

I am VERY impressed.

I took a picture alongside a new Snap On chrome wrench to compare metal luster.
You can certainly see a big difference on the old socket where I wheeled it and where I didn’t.
It might just be me but I think the luster left by that ceramic wheel is nicer looking than the bright chrome on the wrench.

to macgee!

I’ll be dropping off a few more Thorsen sockets for further testing. Let me know when they are done.
Seriously, that is impressive. I’m going to have to try one of those.
-Don

 

[Shiftless]

Don:
You’re right, we really don’t know the whole truth until a whole set gets wheeled.

Do you have a suitable grinder motor to dedicate to wheeling? I’ve got a spare Craftsman block.

In a few more weeks after both of us get our 2nd vaccine and pass the waiting time, we can perhaps organize a shop day.

I’ve got a 60 year old Galaxie that we could get running again.

 

[d42jeep]

Don:
You’re right, we really don’t know the whole truth until a whole set gets wheeled.

Do you have a suitable grinder motor to dedicate to wheeling? I’ve got a spare Craftsman block.

In a few more weeks after both of us get our 2nd vaccine and pass the waiting time, we can perhaps organize a shop day.

I’ve got a 60 year old Galaxie that we could get running again.

I have a Taiwanese Craftsman that I seldom use that could be dedicated to that wheel. I should have grabbed one of those sale wheels. I’ll keep an eye out for another.
I’m looking forward to be able to get out again safely. Charge up the battery on that nice Ford.
-Don

 

[Shiftless]

These are rusty tools. Some are worse than others.
Friends of ours own a famous old garden in Sonoma County. Volunteers are sometimes careless about picking up pruners and nice ones quickly end up looking like these when left out in wet dirt.

They save up small batches and give them to me for rehabilitation. I work on them when I feel like it and take them back for further duty. A few months from now, I’ll probably get some of them back from repeat offenders.
When I go up to help prune I bring my own Felco’s. Do I leave them laying in the mud? What do you think?

Evaporust, scrubbing, sharpening, oiling.

This batch has a retail price of almost $200 if they had to be tossed out and replaced.

I’ll post “after” pics in the next day or 2.

 

[Shiftless]

This page reserved for after pics.

(It looks like we can no longer edit picture attachments after the first few minutes after posting. Maybe a temporary problem, maybe permanent. )

 

[allenm518]

After any method of rust removal, how are you all stopping flash rust and protecting from future rust?

I've been using some Zep solution which is really effective but things have been instantly rusting. I since have been taking them out of the Zep, rinsing with water, and then coating with a phosophoric acid based Concrete cleaner. This leaves a gray iron phosphate layer and stops the flash rust.

Any tips?

 

[Shiftless]

Flash rust is indeed a problem.
Depending on future plans I either

1. Warm the piece with a heat gun and apply boiled linseed oil.

2. Warm the piece and brush on thinned down Rustoleum primer paint.

3. Apply Fluid Film. You can get it in lots of different sized containers. I use very little of it so I buy in aerosol cans. Guys that undercoat their vehicles buy 5 gallon buckets.

If you go with the BLO, you can later paint over that with oil based paint. No need to remove the BLO. I apply BLO to vises that I have stripped and intend to leave bare. The BLO hardens and darkens over time to leave a nice vintage look.

 

[macgee]

After any method of rust removal, how are you all stopping flash rust and protecting from future rust?

I've been using some Zep solution which is really effective but things have been instantly rusting. I since have been taking them out of the Zep, rinsing with water, and then coating with a phosophoric acid based Concrete cleaner. This leaves a gray iron phosphate layer and stops the flash rust.

Any tips?

I've been having this problem a lot lately when using the ultrasonic cleaner at hot temps; when I take it out, it goes off pretty quickly, I'll then rinse it with fresh water while still hot, wipe down quickly and put in the Evaporust bath while its still hot for about 10-15 mins and that works very well. I'll rinse it again lightly in fresh water and dry off and does fine, typically I go to the Radial brush wheel right after wiping dry, The wheel acts like a fan and heats the item up while finishing it. All pics and item finished within the same day.


Before any cleaning & dirty and straight into the U-S cleaner as-is:



Right after Ultrasonic cleaner with degreaser @140 degrees, it flash rusted right away:



Right after Evaporust that removed the flash rust (10mins bath time)


Final outcome after radial brush wheel, very little metal loss and vise squares up well:

 

[macgee]

Here's another example of rust removal without having to wire wheel and sand down.

Mostly Evoporust and then lightly use radial brush wheel. Can't do much about the lows (micro holes) that come from pitting caused by the years of rust from sitting outside.





Finished item above with custom handle with brass ball bearing rotating finger knobs for a vintage Delta Drill press.:

 

[Shiftless]

macgee:
Those are pieces of art just as much as they are machine parts.

Gotta love the BBB (big brass balls)

Your level of finish is at a very enviable standard. Great work!

 

[allenm518]

Is the flash rust not a problem after Evaporust as it is a chelator? I would think that after brushing you would also leave yourself vulnerable since you are exposing fresh metal?

 

[macgee]

It depends, I'll go for ages with no flash rust issues after evaporust baths but then all of a sudden its a tool or bath session that happens. I think the metal content, how crisply clean it comes out of the bath, the outdoor temp, bath temp and temp of item when coming out bath. Also, I think the freshness or batch of the Evaporust that you have.

Most of the time, I rinse it Immediately with rubbing alcohol (I get it cheap, $5/ga) after Evapor bath and wipe it dry or rinse with fresh water, dry it and let it dry in hot sun. If any flash rust is left, then the radial brush wheel takes it right off in a flash of a second.

I just took apart a 4" Cardinal Speedy vise for repair and will give it a rub-a-dub bath tonight or tomorrow with some other items in the bath as well. I'll post if I get any flash

 

[Shiftless]

Here’s another demonstration photo of how well those radial brush wheels work.

My latest vise project is a Craftsman 5242. It’s a humble homeowner grade exposed screw model but it seemed well cared for and after a thorough rehab deserved a place on one of my shelves. I have stripped it of old paint and rust and will paint it a medium blue satin color.

I stopped in the middle of wheeling the handle to show the fantastic job that radial brush wheel does. It’s had about 10 minutes of run in time and like macgee said, it will produce finer results after a break in period. Maybe it will improve even more with more time but I can’t complain about this!!!

I took this picture next to the same S.O. wrench I pictured next to the Thorsen socket in a previous post in order to demonstrate the luster. Is tough to photograph shiny stuff.

 

[drivesitfar]

Shift: I just picked up this little Wissota grinder and after i spiff it up I think i'm going to buy those wheels you are using on one end and a brass wire wheel on the other end. what's it called exactly and do you have the amazon link or where did you buy them?

Mac: great posts about using evaporust. do you have it in a some sort of container with a lid or do tell? thanks again for sharing your wisdom!! since we don't have the warm weather you do everything seems to flash rust so i've put BLO on most things after wire wheeling or vinegar baths, but I might just buy a couple cans of Fluid Film.

And a jug of EVAPORUST since you and Shift and others seem to use it and like it so well. i've heard it does lose some of it's strength with time and i've heard some filter it and just add new to the old. any tips on how to use it economically?

ALL: i used to use WD40 on my rusty steel until I found GJ and now i'm almost inclined to buy the entire bucket of rusty tools cause there are so many many good ones that would go in the trash that could be saved.

Vinegar, molasses, wire wheel, evaporust, Electolysis, and so many more options to remove rust.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

drives

Potency of Evaporust or Metal Rescue (a second water-based, non-toxic, acid-free, Ph-neutral chelator on the market for a few years now) is hard to determine. The duration of the potency is not. It is directly proportional to the surface area of the steel that is immersed in it and the duration of the immersion. Picture the microscopic view. Thousands of chelator molecules attaching to thousands of oxidation molecules and loosening them. Those chelator molecules turn the color of rust and are no longer active. As you introduce new rusty tools to your solution, the solution gets darker and darker. That is the rust being removed, as inactive molecules start to outnumber the active molecules. Eventually, there are no active molecules left, or so few, that a rusty tool will emerge still rusty no matter how long it is immersed. Everyone's "experience" with the duration is subjective, because there is no way to know how much rusty steel each of us is immersing and for how long without measuring that.

The only way to make Evaporust or Metal Rescue seemingly* "last longer" is to preserve the active molecules. There are only two ways to do that: (1) reduce the amount you use from the original container to the bare minimum required for tool immersion, and (2) try to separate the inactive molecules from the active molecules (i.e., filtering).

I was doing both for over a year or so.

My methodology...

I know some guys use different shaped bins for different size tools, but I have one bin, which seals tight, that I prop up with blocks in different directions (lengthwise, or on end) based on the size of the tool. Either way, you only want to use the minimal amount you need to fully immerse the tool, and no more. When I pulled that tool out, I did not pour that used solution back into the container with the unused solution. I poured it into a separate container, and I poured it through a very fine mesh screen filter. I re-used that used solution for the next rusty tool. Again, I only used the minimal required amount. If the size of the tool required more solution for the tool to be fully immersed, only then did I add more solution from the original unused solution container, and only just enough to fully immerse the new rusty tool, and no more. Only when that used solution was fully spent (again, criteria is rusty tool emerges rusty after a few days...) did I dispose of it. So I was constantly filtering and controlling the amount of used solution and the amount of new solution added to the used solution. One bin, two containers (original and second), one fine mesh filter.

I stopped filtering about a year ago just to see what would happen. The difference was so negligible in terms of the duration, and then Tractor Supply dropped the price from $21 to $17, so I have not gone back to filtering. I still control the immersions to preserve the used and unused solution. But I no longer bother filtering.

*Technically you cannot and are not doing anything to change anything at the molecular level. You're only controlling the immersion.

(I know I have described my methodology before, but I can't seem to find it. It seems that no matter what we do to try to reduce it, we still have this propensity for redundancy here on GJ. And here I am contributing to it! Links to many various prior 'Tool Cleaning' and 'Rust Removal' threads are in the Index in the Sticky, post #3, if anyone is interested.)