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Tools from the old world

Skin

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Missed that as I don't know Snap on part numbers very well. Looks like the 'plus' doesn't make much difference at all really. From the pics it look like they used some sort of hex stock in place of a fastener.

FD+ makes a huge difference. You can basically put a wrench on a bolt and stand on it without it slipping. Only thing I can think is their control hex was hardened so much it made the teeth pointless. Either that or they were clamping all the open ends shut from the outside to force breakages and permanent damage rather than spreading but FD+ compared to a normal open end is day and night difference.
 
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mr.lemons

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I cannot figure out if teeth on an open end would grip better on a hex that is softer or harder. First thought is that the teeth need to grip into a softer material but I don't think it's about gripping into a material but catching onto a corner without rounding the edge so I think harder the better for the hex. :dunno:

Think you are reaching with the clamping idea.
 
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OneDollarSaab

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Ok, I'm going to try to make my first image post, let's see if it works...

I bought a set of old Facom 75 series wrenches last year. I work on European cars in the US and thought these might come in handy. They all say 'FRANCE' on them and none of them have the flank-drive style rounded inside corners. Not sure when Facom changed them over.
 

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Samuel D

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I bought a set of old Facom 75 series wrenches last year.
Pretty. What do you think of them? That set must weigh a ton!

I have often wondered at regional tool preferences:


  • In France, these clé à pipe type wrenches are popular. They’re almost the default wrench for a lot of jobs and people
  • In Nordic countries like Finland, flex-head ‘Saltus’ socket wrenches are extremely popular. I mean the Bahco 4040M type
  • And in some other countries, people favour deep-offset spanners like the Stahlwille Stabil 20.

What accounts for these differences?
 

OneDollarSaab

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Pretty. What do you think of them? That set must weigh a ton!
They are very useful in specific circumstances, where an offset box isn't quite deep enough. With a crossbar or tommy bar inserted through the short end, I can spin fasteners off, which is nice. With a bar stuck into the long end, I can break very tight fasteners. They also make a convenient pass-through wrench for strut nuts.

What accounts for these differences?
We have a saying, different strokes for different folks. :thumbup:
 

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Qualitytools

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Ok, I'm going to try to make my first image post, let's see if it works...

I bought a set of old Facom 75 series wrenches last year. I work on European cars in the US and thought these might come in handy. They all say 'FRANCE' on them and none of them have the flank-drive style rounded inside corners. Not sure when Facom changed them over.

Those look Awesome! Where did you get them and are they 6 point on one end and 12 on the other end?
 

OneDollarSaab

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Those look Awesome! Where did you get them and are they 6 point on one end and 12 on the other end?

I got them on Craigslist, I periodically type in 'wrench' and 'wrenches' for my area and saw them one day for a reasonable price. They are all Facom 75 series, so they are 6-point on both ends, except for the 20mm, which is a Facom 76 with 12 points on the short end. I believe it was added later to the standard 8-32mm set by the original owner.

I don't have a good way to store them right now so they take up an entire drawer in one of my boxes.
 

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Samuel D

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They are all Facom 75 series, so they are 6-point on both ends, except for the 20mm, which is a Facom 76 with 12 points on the short end. I believe it was added later to the standard 8-32mm set by the original owner.
Yep, even today the Facom 75.P22M 22-piece set does not have the 20 mm:

https://www.manomano.fr/p/75-jeux-d...es-metriques-et-en-pouces-facom-75p22m-737607

(And I see the weight there: 13.4 kg! (30 lb.) This is why I’ve wondered about these wrenches. I like using them, but they’re very heavy compared to alternatives.)
 

Mohawk Dave

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Fiskars fix blade utility knife with folding blade guard.

Not new but didn't know that Fiskars made knives.

I like Stanley fixed blade utility knives so think this looks like a good idea.

Guessing they are not made in Finland.

drfnygdrfthdrytg.jpg


Demo vid

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/q8BnRucADb4" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

When I was a framer (up to 2008) I switched over to a Lennox fixed blade and used a beefcake leather sheath for it on my bags. Still rock it when helping friends etc.

What a difference....I hate normal utility knives when on the job site after using fixed.:beer:
 

Dave455

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I think Gerber bought them or they bought Gerber so maybe that is why they are making Fiskars branded knives now.

Sadly, Fiskars bought Gerber.

I don’t think Fiskars ever even understood what made Gerber special.

The superb knives that Gerber produced, unique designs from the then foremost custom makers, faultlessly executed, are now all gone.

Those who are lucky enough to own good examples, and I am thankfully among them, now generally find them too valuable to use.

Some of the names live on, but only the very undiscerning would be satisfied with what’s produced now.
 

ttpete

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Sadly, Fiskars bought Gerber.

I don’t think Fiskars ever even understood what made Gerber special.

The superb knives that Gerber produced, unique designs from the then foremost custom makers, faultlessly executed, are now all gone.

Those who are lucky enough to own good examples, and I am thankfully among them, now generally find them too valuable to use.

Some of the names live on, but only the very undiscerning would be satisfied with what’s produced now.

I recently found some of the little folders that used Stanley blades at Amazon and other places at very nice prices. I still have a mark 2 fighter and a boot knife, one of which I always carried before I was able to get a carry license.
 

Qualitytools

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I got them on Craigslist, I periodically type in 'wrench' and 'wrenches' for my area and saw them one day for a reasonable price. They are all Facom 75 series, so they are 6-point on both ends, except for the 20mm, which is a Facom 76 with 12 points on the short end. I believe it was added later to the standard 8-32mm set by the original owner.

I don't have a good way to store them right now so they take up an entire drawer in one of my boxes.

Great find, I would like to get some but they are not cheap
 

node105

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Oct 31, 2011
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Australia
Moss Wheelbarrow - Made in Australia

This delivered yesterday. Moss Galvanised Wheelbarrow, Check that tyre:
Hot dip galvanised bucket. 1.2mm tray, 190 spot welds, on a 1.6mm reinforcing base. Hardwood handles, 4 ply tyre, ball bearing wheel, 1 inch axle, Solid steel 32 x 8mm legs with 8mm skid wear pads. 4 cu.ft /110L (wet), 6cu.ft / 160L (dry).
 

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KCTool_Official

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Olathe, KS
Hey guys. I know this comes off like we are trying to sell you something, but we thought if anybody would possibly appreciate our new item it is those in this thread. We have a new coffee mug that simply says Deutsche Werkzeuge ("German Tools"). We are selling it right now for 25 bucks with net proceeds going to charity and a match from us. We are just letting our fellow Old-World Tool Aficionados know!

https://www.kctoolco.com/kc-tool-deutsche-werkzeuge-coffee-mug/

kct-mug-300.jpg
 

superautobacs

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Vancouver, BC
Thanks for posting this. Interesting stuff. Surprised at the Snap on open end results. I wonder if the breakaway results leaderboard would be in the same order across all spanner sizes or if some spanner designs scale down to the smaller sizes better than others.

Deen does very well showing that Taiwan made tools can compete with the best of them. Test wasn't done by Factory Gear was it? :)

Being a destructive test only, we don't know what the long-term durability is. If a tool's merit is decided based on outright breakaway numbers, then manufacturers should be able to adjust their steel alloy composition and heat treating methods to reach higher numbers. But that's not the case.

Manufacturers want to know how their tools peform under repetitive, long-term use as well, when operated within their workable work loads. Such testing would take hundreds of hours to conduct to do a comparative study between different brands.

The testing was done by Factory Gear. That may immediately raise alarm flags, calling the testing to be rigged or biased in favour of their in-house brand, DEEN.

I should point out that Factory Gear, from their inception, have been promoting the spread of the world's finest tool brands to Japanese consumers. Some are better represented than others, but they offer many reknowned tool brands from Europe and Japan, not to mention some Snap-on...and even King Tony (Taiwan). There aren't many tool stores in this world that provide that level of variety under one roof.
In their corporate/social media advertisements, they constantly promote non-DEEN branded tools.

So, DEEN tools are, for the most part, made in Taiwan. As we all know it, many tool manufacturers, whether it be American, Japanese, or European, have been working together with Taiwanese tool manufacturers/OEM/ODM's because they see what some of these companies are capable of producing. I know that there are other factors involved, but my point is I think the major key players in Taiwan have proven their worth to their clients. We can't deny that consumers have noticed the quality in the product as well.








Thanks for reminding me of that post, and for posting it in the first place :)

With those results on the box end, I would say that the poorer open end results are from a slimmer design. And that they have chosen a softer hardening, probably with "bend before breaking" in mind.


There were two KTC wrenches tested. The one that pulled the higher number is their standard one, while the other one is a thin-profile wrench (probably the thinnest one in the test).

Factory Gear's president has pointed out in the past that tool manufacturers value these findings as they can compare how others performed in relation to their own. Not necessarily in terms of breakaway numbers, but how they bend/break and at what angle that took place. Tool companies take operator safety in mind and engineers are keen on knowing how and when things bend/break.








Seen that before, but still interesting!

I’m not surprised that the winners are Snap On and Nepros, if you had asked me to name the two best wrench manufacturers worldwide, that’s who I would have picked!

I’m a little surprised that the Flank Drive open end outperformed the Flank Drive Plus, but you don’t know what hardness of fastener you were dealing with. I suspect the fastener hardness, and size, chosen were the ones that the Deen performed best on...!

Interesting that the open end of the Hazet was up there with the best, but the Stahlwille was some way behind. Rather confirms what mr.lemons found.

In reality of course, I use the open end of a combination wrench rarely, and when I do I seldom need high torque. One thing I do notice from the test, is that when you look at the box end results, there isn’t so much difference, and all but the cheapest seem to perform reasonably well!


Yes! The performance you get in terms of shear strength is pretty remarkable as they far surpass the minimum DIN standard requirements!

I should note that the various testing performed was done in cooperation with various tool manufacturers in Japan (socketry maker, pliers maker, screwdriver maker, hex key maker, etc.).
As far as the test rig for the wrenches...the device likely uses an expensive, high-grade hex stock that's hardened appropriately. Here's a photo...look at "test 2"

<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/ccassan/26219542844/in/photostream/" title="Factory Gear Magazine 143"><img src="https://live.staticflickr.com/7164/26219542844_d395aa9007_h.jpg" width="1163" height="1600" alt="Factory Gear Magazine 143"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>








Missed that as I don't know Snap on part numbers very well. Looks like the 'plus' doesn't make much difference at all really. From the pics it look like they used some sort of hex stock in place of a fastener.

FD+ makes a huge difference. You can basically put a wrench on a bolt and stand on it without it slipping. Only thing I can think is their control hex was hardened so much it made the teeth pointless. Either that or they were clamping all the open ends shut from the outside to force breakages and permanent damage rather than spreading but FD+ compared to a normal open end is day and night difference.

Yup, the FD+ really grabs/bites. I've bought a couple sizes for one purpose in mind -- dealing with stubborn/marred up tie-rod ends. There really is a difference.
 
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Samuel D

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I think the Facom 75 and 76 wrenches are now made in China, not that you’ll necessarily see any hint of that on the packaging. Certainly they haven’t been made in France for a long time (since they said “FRANCE” on the tool).

These are inherently expensive wrenches to make, which I suppose makes the savings greater when manufacturing them in China.
 

Rinspeed

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Joined
Apr 26, 2020
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NY
Re: Moss Wheelbarrow - Made in Australia

This delivered yesterday. Moss Galvanised Wheelbarrow, Check that tyre:
Hot dip galvanised bucket. 1.2mm tray, 190 spot welds, on a 1.6mm reinforcing base. Hardwood handles, 4 ply tyre, ball bearing wheel, 1 inch axle, Solid steel 32 x 8mm legs with 8mm skid wear pads. 4 cu.ft /110L (wet), 6cu.ft / 160L (dry).





Very cool.
 

snowblindb

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May 12, 2013
Messages
59
Location
Finland
Not new but didn't know that Fiskars made knives.

There is a village called Fiskar in Finland and there has been iron works since 1649. They have made a quite lot of different steel items labeled as Fiskars since.
I didn’t found information about the knives, I think that there has been Fiskars knives at least from 1980. But they are kitchen knives only. Those utility knives are much newer and are sadly made in somewhere else than Finland.
 

Reed Prince

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May 30, 2017
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Northern Virginia USA
Some recent Knipex purchases.

87 51 251 extra slim jaw Cobra pliers and 81 11 250 pipe and connector pliers.

SJ8HrIq.jpg




50 01 180 and 50 01 250 carpenters' end cutting pliers.

YzOkpuB.jpg




36 12 130 electronics mounting pliers.

ixvLqu2.jpg

IoCEXIK.jpg
 

mr.lemons

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Being a destructive test only, we don't know what the long-term durability is. If a tool's merit is decided based on outright breakaway numbers, then manufacturers should be able to adjust their steel alloy composition and heat treating methods to reach higher numbers. But that's not the case.

Manufacturers want to know how their tools perform under repetitive, long-term use as well, when operated within their workable work loads. Such testing would take hundreds of hours to conduct to do a comparative study between different brands.

Not disagreeing entirely but for my use (infrequent but apparently quite hard) when judging a spanner's merit I 'do' prioritise breakaway strength and yield strength. Obviously they have to fit bolts well enough too.

I have never worn out a spanner so long term durability is not something I have worried about, just assume all decent spanners will last many years of hobby/home use. Before joining Garage journal I had a mixed set of Chinese Draper spanners for over 25 years. Used professionally for about five years as a car alarm/audio fitter and used relatively frequently for hobby use. After 25 years there was some chrome missing and a bit of rust but they still mostly functioned.

Is premature wear on spanners an issue when you use them daily? Which part wears? Teeth in the box end? If they wear out are we talking months, years, decades?

I can only relate to this balance of metal qualities to screwdrivers as that is where my experience is. I find that the best drivers manage to be the best fit, have the strongest breakaway strength, don't shatter and last longer. They don't seem to need to compromise one thing to excel in another.

For my use I would rather have a spanner I can really crank on without worrying about it that needs replacing every few years than a spanner I'm scared to use that lasts forever. So it could be that Stahlwille spanners may be designed for daily use rather than my use but I am not convinced that Stahlwille's softer spanners last any longer than Hazet, Snap on, Nepros etc stronger spanners anyway though I have no data or experience to confirm.

Got a bit ranty sorry. I'm interested to know how Stahlwille spanners get so much love here. I am guilty of believing the hype and then recommending them here after only using them a few times so wonder how many other people do the same.

BTW, I was not implying that the Factory Gear test was completely fake/rigged. It's just something to take into consideration.
 
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Samuel D

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So it could be that Stahlwille spanners may be designed for daily use rather than my use but I am not convinced that Stahlwille's softer spanners last any longer than Hazet, Snap on, Nepros etc stronger spanners anyway though I have no data or experience to confirm.

Got a bit ranty sorry. I'm interested to know how Stahlwille spanners get so much love here.
They’re cheap compared to most name-brands – a tiny fraction of the price of Snap-on or Nepros, since you mention those brands – and they’re available in many useful patterns. They also have close tolerances for fit on the fastener. I’m surprised you haven’t mentioned that because it was noticeable to me without measuring for both the Open Box 13 and Stabil 20 patterns. At typical real-world torques, I believe fit matters more than strength. I practically never use an open-ended spanner at high torque.

The finish quality of Stahlwille spanners is often awful, but they’re German so they get a free pass on that, much like German cars get away with all kinds of engineering errors. Such is the power of marketing. Besides, the rough finish doesn’t prevent them working well.
 

littlebean

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Mar 7, 2018
Messages
752
I have (and use) stahlwille combi spanners and, so far, no issues.
I use them to work on aircooled vws (plus assorted diy projects) at home if that helps to quantify the sort of use they get.
At work I use a mix of Kamasa, Britool, Draper, etc mostly old stuff (work supplied and we just use what's still left lying around.....) I used how that felt for general comparisons before buying stahlwille for home use.
 

Dave455

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Not disagreeing entirely but for my use (infrequent but apparently quite hard) when judging a spanner's merit I 'do' prioritise breakaway strength and yield strength. Obviously they have to fit bolts well enough too.

I have never worn out a spanner so long term durability is not something I have worried about, just assume all decent spanners will last many years of hobby/home use. Before joining Garage journal I had a mixed set of Chinese Draper spanners for over 25 years. Used professionally for about five years as a car alarm/audio fitter and used relatively frequently for hobby use. After 25 years there was some chrome missing and a bit of rust but they still mostly functioned.

Is premature wear on spanners an issue when you use them daily? Which part wears? Teeth in the box end? If they wear out are we talking months, years, decades?

I can only relate to this balance of metal qualities to screwdrivers as that is where my experience is. I find that the best drivers manage to be the best fit, have the strongest breakaway strength, don't shatter and last longer. They don't seem to need to compromise one thing to excel in another.

For my use I would rather have a spanner I can really crank on without worrying about it that needs replacing every few years than a spanner I'm scared to use that lasts forever. So it could be that Stahlwille spanners may be designed for daily use rather than my use but I am not convinced that Stahlwille's softer spanners last any longer than Hazet, Snap on, Nepros etc stronger spanners anyway though I have no data or experience to confirm.

Got a bit ranty sorry. I'm interested to know how Stahlwille spanners get so much love here. I am guilty of believing the hype and then recommending them here after only using them a few times so wonder how many other people do the same.

BTW, I was not implying that the Factory Gear test was completely fake/rigged. It's just something to take into consideration.

I think that part of the problem is that while the open end is the most demanding of quality, most of us seldom use it.

I have been using Stahlwille wrenches for probably 15 years plus, and have no issues, but... I’m not, and never have been, a big user of combination wrenches. Most of the new ones I’ve bought have been the Hazet 600’s, and that was only when another member on here pointed out that the they were very similar proportions to my beloved Britool ones.

I have the relatively short Stahlwille ‘Motor’ open ended wrenches, and the ‘Corona’ box end/ring spanners. I probably use the ring spanners 20 times for every time I use an open end. I’m disappointed that the combination open ends didn’t fare better, but don’t doubt the results!

Sometimes you have to use an open end, but most times now I use a proper flare nut/line wrench. I see firms selling these long, and extra long, combination wrenches and always think that’s fine on the box end, but most open ends won’t take that force, and if they do then the fastener won’t!

P.S. Those Draper spanners were probably Taiwanese. They were not bad tools, and you’re not the only one to have used them professionally!
 
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mr.lemons

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Some torque figures and a bit of humble pie.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/B6wvA9d_r4Q" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Results.

Stahlwille 14
Max torque recorded = 51.9Nm
Breakaway torque = 51.9Nm
Max torque after failure = 35.9Nm

Hazet 600N
Max torque recorded = 59.7Nm
Breakaway torque = 56.4Nm
Max torque after failure = 34.1Nm
 
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